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Adding SVG or bumping 'tar file size - possibilities?

jsw

jsw

Moderator emeritus
Original poster
Mar 16, 2004
22,910
44
Andover, MA
We've had the 19.5KB avatar limit for some time, and I'm curious if there is any flexibility in one of two ways:

(1) Increasing the file size limit - globally, for contributors, or via extra cost (i.e., we all get it, demis get it, or you can pay for more room). I'd happily pay $1/KB/yr to bump mine up to ~25KB, where my 'tar would look much better than at 19.5KB.

(2) Allow use of SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics) as a file type for avatars. SVG allows some incredible imaging in small sizes - the 19.5KB limit would not be an issue. My personal 'tar wouldn't be helped - I'd need to use something different - but it would allow for vector-based 'tars, which I think would add some real punch to the forums without adding anything at all to the MR server load (pushing a 10KB SVG file is no more or less arduous than pushing a 10KB GIF file). Safari is going to support SVG natively in a release or two, and users can get a plugin free from Adobe (see here) in the meantime. There's a nice tutorial from Adobe available, and also great samples here. It's going to be huge in a year or so - we could be ahead of everyone else by going there now. Many apps are starting to support it (Adobe's, OmniGraffle, etc.)

I'm not asking for an increase in dimensions - 75x75 is fine by me - just for some additional room or format flexibility. Any possibilities?
 
i think the change will have to be across the board rather than just limited to only Demis/pay basis.

maybe a small bump? 20kb is a rather small file size. but its up to arn and the other mods.

i don't know anything about this other file type so i can't really comment on that.
 
SVG will be interesting for the web. Assuming that it doesn't become another breeding ground for exploits like WMF. :p

Is it already in roadmap documentation that Safari is going to pick this feature up? Or just rumor-mill?
 
Can anyone with a far more efficient brain than mine work out how such a change would affect the bandwidth? Say there's X avatars being used, and half of them of them change to, say 25KB rather than 19.5, how much more bandwidth does that consume?
 
mkrishnan said:
SVG will be interesting for the web. Assuming that it doesn't become another breeding ground for exploits like WMF. :p

Is it already in roadmap documentation that Safari is going to pick this feature up? Or just rumor-mill?
Click to expand...
WebKit developers are already using it. I expect that, at the very latest, OS X 10.5 will ship with an SVG-enabled Safari.

Firefox supports it (to a large extent) now. The next version of Symbian Series 60 phones will support it natively.

While I suppose that the implementation might yield exploits (maybe...), the file format is XML, and it's more akin to PostScript than anything else.

Lau said:
Can anyone with a far more efficient brain than mine work out how such a change would affect the bandwidth? Say there's X avatars being used, and half of them of them change to, say 25KB rather than 19.5, how much more bandwidth does that consume?
Click to expand...
Worst case, for a page with 40 replies where every single one of them has an enhanced avatar? 40 x 5.5KB, or 220KB. Worst case (unlikely to ever occur). And, of course, that would mean the avatars would have consumed 780KB anyway, and then, of course, there's the content of the page, the ads, any attached images, etc.
 
Lau said:
Can anyone with a far more efficient brain than mine work out how such a change would affect the bandwidth? Say there's X avatars being used, and half of them of them change to, say 25KB rather than 19.5, how much more bandwidth does that consume?
Click to expand...

I guess you'd need to know how many forum page visits per hour there are, plus make a rough estimate of the number of replies per screen....

Of course, the effect on threads that Mad Jew frequents will be downright scary! :eek: ;) :D

JSW, thanks for the info. It sounds very nice. I think it'll really enhance the web...although people will have to go back to the drawing board to make new avatars. ;)
 
iMeowbot said:
A graphic format with javascript built in is trouble waiting to happen.
Click to expand...
Javascript isn't built into stock SVG (although there are proposed enhancements to allow for inline HTML/Javascript). Javascript in an enclosing document can get at the SVG DOM and manipulate it, but there is no JavaScript within the SVG file itself, at least not currently or in the near future.

However, on a slightly different note, there are built-in animation capabilities.
 
PlaceofDis said:
i think the change will have to be across the board rather than just limited to only Demis/pay basis.

maybe a small bump? 20kb is a rather small file size. but its up to arn and the other mods.

i don't know anything about this other file type so i can't really comment on that.
Click to expand...

i am pretty sure the demis are based on a seperate usergroup. usergroups can be customized to fit in almost any aspect. avatar size is an easy change, it takes only a couple clicks and a different number added, it just needs approval. :) the drawback is that it couldn't easily be implemented on a per-demi basis... i think for the sake of administrator ease it would be all demis or none at all. know what i mean? just my guess.

i'd gladly pay a bit extra for a few extra KBs, generally i don't use it but it would be nice to have the option sometimes. 'tars like jsw's are a real bugger to get into those file size limits.

SVG is a cool idea. i don't know a lot about it but that's a good thought in the right direction
 
jsw said:
Javascript isn't built into stock SVG (although there are proposed enhancements to allow for inline HTML/Javascript).
Click to expand...
And those are already being implemented. Adobe already implements it, here is a clock example. Built-in Safari support is also being worked on, and they expect it to be included in the shipping version.


[ed: link to the Adobe SVG viewer plugin ]
 
iMeowbot said:
And those are already being implemented. Adobe already implements it, here is a clock example. Built-in Safari support is also being worked on, and they expect it to be included in the shipping version.
Click to expand...
Well, yes, true. Adobe has a bit of a fast-and-loose interpretation of the current standard (or at least with their acceptance of non-conforming files). However, point taken. People using the Adobe plugin would be subject to any vulnerabilities within it. And, point further taken, such capabilities will be incorporated into all viewers at some point soon.

However, I'd expect the browser to have decent JavaScript security built-in (perhaps a bad assumption ;)), and I'd expect that, if JavaScript were disabled, the script wouldn't run.

Whatever we do with the avatars - and I'm not expecting SVG - it (SVG) will be a presence within a year or so, and, you're right, some issues will likely arise, mainly due to non-"pure" SVG (pure meaning no JavaScript, HTML, etc., not meaning "conforming to standards").
 
The latest version of Safari actually has SVG support built in, it's just not complete yet (there's quite a few bugs in the implementation). On places such as Wikipedia, you can already find images in SVG if it's warranted, such as the flag for the U.S. or the U.K. (direct links to the SVG flags), which are pretty cool examples.

As for making the limit higher, I'm all for it, but does my opinion matter? :rolleyes: It'd be nicer if we could just host our own image and not have to follow file size restrictions for the avatar.
-Chasen
 
calculus said:
I don't understand why anybody needs the things anyway.
Click to expand...

needs vs. wants... endless debate there. ;) we'll see if you feel the same way about avatars in +500 posts when you are able to have one. :) they're fun, i like having one and it's nice to have to earn it.
 
calculus said:
I don't understand why anybody needs the things anyway.
Click to expand...


Are you suggesting people in real life should wear brown paper bags over their heads so we can no longer see their faces? ;)

Metaphorically speaking, obviously.
 
iBlue said:
needs vs. wants... endless debate there. ;) we'll see if you feel the same way about avatars in +500 posts when you are able to have one. :) they're fun, i like having one and it's nice to have to earn it.
Click to expand...

not only that. it helps you associate members with thier posts.
 
iBlue said:
needs vs. wants... endless debate there. ;) we'll see if you feel the same way about avatars in +500 posts when you are able to have one. :) they're fun, i like having one and it's nice to have to earn it.
Click to expand...
I think 'earn' is a bit of an exaggeration.
 
calculus said:
I think 'earn' is a bit of an exaggeration.
Click to expand...

Well, put it this way, either someone earns it with 500 good posts, or someone spams their way to 500. By 500 posts, you tend to remember the spammer, and their 'tar acts as a handy beacon to not take any of their posts too seriously. :)

Well, that's how it works for me, anyway.
 
Lau said:
Well, put it this way, either someone earns it with 500 good posts, or someone spams their way to 500. By 500 posts, you tend to remember the spammer, and their 'tar acts as a handy beacon to not take any of their posts too seriously. :)

Well, that's how it works for me, anyway.
Click to expand...
That's a good point.
 
Nah... I probably wouldn't get the 140.6KB I really need, anyway... ;)

Going from 20 to 25 doesn't seem worthwhile...
 

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Since i don't have animiation on mine i can't really comment but if everyone increases their file size on the 'tars wouldn't the thread your viewing be slower to load.....
 
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