Additional hard drives in Powermac G4 DA

Discussion in 'PowerPC Macs' started by poiihy, Dec 5, 2014.

  1. poiihy macrumors 68020

    poiihy

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    #1
    Is there a way to install more than two hard drives in a Powermac G4 DA? I've heard that the bottom bays can hold more than two drives by using a bracket. I've also seen people add a caddy above the optical drive and a caddy standing vertically under the optical drive bays; connected to a SATA PCI card. I already know you can fit a hard drive in the ZIP drive bay (i did that), but how do I add hard drives elsewhere?
     
  2. Intell macrumors P6

    Intell

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    Jan 24, 2010
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    Inside
    #2
    You can fit at least three hard drives along the bottom of the machine. If you have the double brackets, you can fit six. Most PCI-Quicksilver G4's only came with one double bracket.
     
  3. poiihy thread starter macrumors 68020

    poiihy

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    #3
    Oh really? I have two hard drives on the bottom currently, and the leftmost part is just a blank area. It doesnt look like a hard drive goes there but apparently it does. But the hard drive cable there only has two plugs, as well as the power cable; so it can only be used with an added PCI card.

    Where other places can I (unofficially) fit hard drives into? Where can I find a caddy to fit a hard drive above the optical drive?
     
  4. Intell macrumors P6

    Intell

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    #4
    I'm not sure a hard drive caddy was ever designed for above the optical drive. You could put a drive up there without one, but it won't be very secure.
     
  5. robertdsc macrumors regular

    robertdsc

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    #5
    I've fit up to 8 IDE drives in a Digital Audio 466.

    [​IMG]

    To accommodate the extra four drives, I have/had a Sonnet Tempo IDE PCI card that handled their use very well.

    The drive bracket at the bottom of the Mac on the left side is a dual stack bracket from that era of Power Macs. The drive bracket in place of the DVD drive is from a MDD Power Mac and its drives are plugged into the IDE cable that was reserved for the optical drive and Zip drive.

    The two drives at the top of the Mac were hand lashed together using zip ties, but each drive was bolted to single drive plates from that era of Power Macs.

    I've also done SATA drives in the very same Digital Audio 466:

    [​IMG]

    MDD drive cages were my preferred method when it came to SATA drives.
     
  6. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

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    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #6
    Nice work. I notice that you are still using the stock PSU-how does it handle the power draw from 8 drives?
     
  7. robertdsc macrumors regular

    robertdsc

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    #7
    I never had any problems with power. Though I rarely used this Mac for an extended time with 8 drives connected, I did get all 8 to show up on the desktop and had no operational issues whatsoever.

    My MDD has six drives in it (2 per IDE cable) and it works fine, knock on wood.
     
  8. Cox Orange macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    #8
    No Problem as long as you don't use one of the bigger CPU Upgrades and a strong graphics card at the same time, along with the 8 Drives and additional PCI-Cards such as for USB. Though, with a GE, DA and QS model you will be on the safer side for a bit longer.
    Somewhere, here on the forum, I posted heat and power consumption for a Sawtooth for 8 Drives + 3 SATA-cards + ATI 9200 + 1,2GHz Sonnet CPU. The graphics card and the CPU are not those "bigger" upgrades I mentioned.

    As far as I remember at startup it peaked out at 160W shortly (the Sawtoth PSU can handle 228W, some have the a 208W PSU, and 128W over longer durations). It idled at around 100W or so, I think... I don't have the time to search for the post now.

    Also, when considering to buy a SATA-card, you can get a few with SIL3124 Chip for 10-15USD. I posted it somewhere, too, about (I guess) 6 months ago, but I don't know, if it still can be found on EBay. Two users here in the forum have tested this particular card I linked to, already (I have another one).

    But for the DA and QS, with additional upgrades on top of the 8 drives, be keep an eye on the heat. Those two models have another cooling design than the Sawtooth and GE.
     
  9. robertdsc macrumors regular

    robertdsc

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    #9
    For the record, while Intell is correct about stacking six drives with the appropriate brackets, I found that setup to be extraordinarily tight and uncomfortable in regards to cable placement and wiring. It works, but the door hinge can create issues. I wound up abandoning this setup in favor of other methods.
     
  10. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

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    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #10
    Good to know that the PSU is up to the task.

    I have a SCSI card in my Sawtooth with connections for two internal 68-pin SCSI busses, and have been considering loading it up with as many drives as I can shoehorn in. Unfortunately, most of the SCSI drives I have are relatively small so I'd probably benefit a lot more(both in terms of power consumption and in real world use) from sticking an IDE or SATA card in it and putting a couple of drives in that way.

    The SCSI set up seems like a more "Mac like" solution, however, since I seem to recall reading that it was a BTO option on this era G4s.
     
  11. poiihy thread starter macrumors 68020

    poiihy

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    Aug 22, 2014
    #11
  12. robertdsc macrumors regular

    robertdsc

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    Jan 28, 2014
    #12
    Get one of these:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Silicon-Image-PB3124-2SATA300-4-Port-PCI-X-SATA-RAID-Controller-Card-184-/271664932346?pt=US_Computer_Disk_Controllers_RAID_Cards&hash=item3f407de5fa

    The lack of a mounting bracket is not an issue as far as my tests have gone.

    The driver for this card is here:

    http://www.drivers-download.com/en/downloadlist.php?id=72

    I've installed this exact card into two separate G4 machines. It will eventually reside in a spare G5 once I scratch up the cash for a single processor machine. The card is shown installed in my DA 466 in the image I posted upthread. Cox Orange deserves the credit for showing me the way forward.
     
  13. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #13
    Can the above-linked card do hardware RAID, or is it limited to software?
     
  14. poiihy thread starter macrumors 68020

    poiihy

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    #14
    So you need to install a driver to make a SATA card work in a Powermac?

    ----------

    I still don't understand why some are ~$10 and others are ~$100
     
  15. robertdsc macrumors regular

    robertdsc

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    #15
    Well, it's a PC card that has Mac drivers. You could go the other route and pay upwards of $80 for a native Mac card from Sonnet.

    http://secure1.sonnettech.com/product_info.php?products_id=105

    This PC card with driver is less than $20 and it has been verified to work in the Mac you use. What more could you ask for?
     
  16. robertdsc macrumors regular

    robertdsc

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    #16
    I don't know. I've never tried RAID. All I do know is that the four drives I connected to the card showed up on the desktop after the driver loaded as part of the normal boot process after login.
     
  17. weckart macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2004
    #17
    If this card is bootable then driver support should be there in Open Firmware and in the ROM on the card. What additional functionality do the OS drivers afford?
     
  18. Cox Orange macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    #18
    @ Robert:
    Thanks for crediting me! Also for putting the information here, would have taken me some time, to find it myself, again, since I didn't save the link to the card!

    @ weckart:
    Genuine Mac-card (from Sonnet etc.), have the SIL-3124 or SIL3132 Chip on it, plus the Mac ROM:
    - they are bootable

    PC-cards with these chips do not have the Mac ROM (afaik) and installing the drivers on your Mac only makes them usable on a Mac:
    - they are not bootable
    - but the 4xSATA-PCI-X-card I have (another one than the currently available on Ebay, but all should work, as long as they have the chip) support lager drives than my Sonnet 2xSATA-PCI-card (it has a SIL3132 chip), which is bootable. A 3TB Toshiba, which crapped out on me several times runs without problems, since I left it on the PC-card and unplugged it, when leaving 10.4 or 10.5 to boot into 10.2 or OS 9.
    - the drives are shown as ejectable orange icons (like external Firewire- or USB-drives)

    @ pohiiy:
    Often things are more expensive, because it says Mac. Sellers have ripped off people for a long time in selling Mac-compatible HDDs or RAM.
    With the bootable, genuine Mac cards, you pay also for the ROM on it, which makes it bootable. (ROM = contains the Firmware for the Mac on the card itself. The Mac-drivers linked to are to install on the Mac, not the card. The card itself still has the PC Firmware on it).

    Also, PCIe cards that work in the last generation of PowerMac G5s (and Mac Pros) are usually cheaper. PCI-X-cards (long golden flank) are harder to find, but would cost arround the same as their PCI-counterparts (shorter golden flank). But the prices do still range for non-Mac-cards, though. Also some don't have the SIL-chip, but a VIA chip or Marvell etc.

    General info: PCI-X has double the data throughput (65MB/s instead of 35MB/s) than PCI. So get one as shown by robertdcs.
    I recommended it to robert and another user, because there was no other at the time. When I bought mine I found a purple one in an auction, that I got for 1+chipping. As I see from your link, the card is available in the US, again now: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PCI-X-Serve...sk_Controllers_RAID_Cards&hash=item4d29564dc9

    I have the issue with my purple card, that When I open several movies after one another sometimes the pictures run quicker, but the sound is real time. Same can happen in iMovie-HD (version 5). Also, if you are running a big or complex movie and than click on something that makes a sound (like empty the trash or the speaker symbol, the sound is sometimes delayed. That might be due to the 100MHz BUS. The D/A of robert has 133MHz, maybe that helps, or it is just the green card itself, that is better than my purple one.

    @ bunnspecial:
    I didn't test RAID either (mine is labeled with RAID jumpers as well), but the drivers page has seperate RAID-SIL-3124 drivers, so you could try and if it not works, you still have the normal card for cheap.

    On the "More make like solution", well you could have bought an ACARD or Sonnet IDE-PCI-card at the time, too. How is your SCSI-card labled (what brand?), because ACARD and another manufacturer had those, too.


    Additional Info:
    There is a cheap Silverstone SATA-PCIe PC-card for last gen. G5s, that is actually bootable.
     
  19. vlark macrumors member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2014
    #19
    Here's a stupid question that's related to this:

    Would a PCI-X or a PCIe card work in a regular PCI slot? I have a G4 Gigabit Ethernet that only has PCI slots, so would the above linked card work in that machine?
     
  20. robertdsc macrumors regular

    robertdsc

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    #20
    PCIe will not. PCI-X may work, but a slower rate than the card is capable of running.
     
  21. Cox Orange macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    #21
    Well, but it will still be faster than a PCI card (65MB/s vs 35MB/s in a Sawtooth, that has the same 64bit 33MHz PCI lanes like the GigabitEthernet).
     
  22. poiihy thread starter macrumors 68020

    poiihy

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    Aug 22, 2014
    #22
    Why do people almost always misspell my name?!?! :mad:
     
  23. Cox Orange macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    #23
    Sorry, no mean intend.

    I guess it depends on the writers own mother language and what order of letters is common to the person.
    I actually thought it was a fantasy name, but that should have maybe make me check twice.
     

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