Adobe Responds to Apple's Anti-Flash Stance With Comments on Openness, Ad Campaign

[John.B]

Sort of like AT&T deciding to fight the 3G Maps campaign, not by dramatically expanding 3G coverage, but by coming back with ad campaigns about how 97% of the U.S. is covered- even when most of that is Edge and not 3G?

I find that Flash runs well enough on my many Macs that I can see or do what I want to see or do that is served up as Flash media. Can Adobe make it better- even a lot better? ABSOLUTELY, but I could say the same about a lot of other software that runs on my Mac too- including a lot of software coded by Apple themselves. Relative to this thread, I still would prefer the OPTION of running Flash on these Macs, than not being able to even try. And if i owned an Apple iDevice, I would much prefer the option to burn my batteries faster if I so choose, rather than Apple decide that I should not even have the option.

Complete bullcrap.

You can run Flash on any major browser on Mac OSX. And also on Safari for Windows.

If you want to run Flash on an iDevice, buy an Android tablet or smartphone that runs Flash. Except that there isn't one. Now who's "deciding" for you?

 

[NiteWaves77]

"Our thoughts on open markets"

What a specious title for their propaganda. (They should seek employment with the Obama administration.). In a free market, Apple is free to do what they're doing, and Adobe is free to try to crush the iPhone OS devices by partnering with whoever they choose to fine-tune Flash on competing mobile devices.

 

[ikir]

What makes you so sure? In the US where Mac has a 10% marketshare it's evident that the Mac can hold its own even without the creative professionals, but over here in Europe, the only Mac users I know are musicians and graphic designers, the kind of customers who kept Apple afloat during the mid 90's when no one else would. Heck, I know people who switched to Windows during the short period when Adobe had ceased development of After Effects and Premiere for Mac, and they haven't switched back after Adobe did a 180 on that front. Software is just that important to a lot of people. Photoshop is literally the livelihood for millions of Mac users, if Adobe were to pull the Mac version tomorrow it would not be something Steve could shrug off and be cocky about. Unlike most software companies, Adobe's userbase is roughly 50/50 split between Windows and OS X. Yeah, that means Apple users are a very important business to Adobe, but it also means that the reverse is true.

In europe Apple is growing super fast. I'm using Pixelmatore instead of Photoshop, sure they have different target but for my work it is enough, faster, cheaper. Believe me Adobe can't do it without Mac users, they are more than you think now.

 

[whooleytoo]

What makes you so sure? In the US where Mac has a 10% marketshare it's evident that the Mac can hold its own even without the creative professionals, but over here in Europe, the only Mac users I know are musicians and graphic designers, the kind of customers who kept Apple afloat during the mid 90's when no one else would. Heck, I know people who switched to Windows during the short period when Adobe had ceased development of After Effects and Premiere for Mac, and they haven't switched back after Adobe did a 180 on that front. Software is just that important to a lot of people. Photoshop is literally the livelihood for millions of Mac users, if Adobe were to pull the Mac version tomorrow it would not be something Steve could shrug off and be cocky about. Unlike most software companies, Adobe's userbase is roughly 50/50 split between Windows and OS X. Yeah, that means Apple users are a very important business to Adobe, but it also means that the reverse is true.

I don't think Adobe can afford to do that. If they were to use Photoshop as a stick, it would hurt both companies greatly, but Adobe is suffering at the moment with some of the high-profile Flash sites abandoning the technology and the resultant negative PR; while Apple is riding higher than ever. Apple would suffer, but they have the market-share such that someone would fill the gap left by Photoshop. Adobe, on the other hand, might struggle to recover.

I'm not happy about that, I just think that's the way it is. I actually think it would be good for us if Apple lose a fight now and then, might teach them to offer a little leeway and choice now and then, rather than steam-rolling their way through each industry.

 

[John.B]

There have been substantial improvements in Flash 10.1; they're not just ignoring the software and conducting a PR campaign.

When a company is making this much of a public fuss over supposed end-user "choice", shipping products talk.

 

[macsmurf]

Isn't the raison d'être for Flash that you can "protect your content" (e.g. DRM)? But only if you pay $700 for Adobe Flash Professional CS5.

Those open source Flash kits are no more useful than the free Microsoft developer tool starter kits.

I don't know why that's so hard for you to understand.

I've never commented on whether or not it's actually a viable solution to use only free stuff to make Flash apps. I've only said that you can, which is true.

Most flex developers would probably buy Flash Builder which will set you back around €200 for the full version.

 

[KnightWRX]

I seem to remember that being portrayed by Adobe PR as being all Apple's fault as well. Is a theme appearing here…?

Seriously, guys, you aren't afraid of ridicule ?

The fact that Apple had announced Carbon64, had a whole roadmap planned out for it and then dropped it just before Adobe shipped CS4 is not Adobe's problem.

Also, Apple still has a lot of their own in-house products that are made with Carbon, are 32 bit, while Adobe just finished a big move to Cocoa.

Who's lazy now ? Seriously, kool-aid, put it down.

Same for Flash on iPhone. Adobe was literally hours away from shipping Flash on iPhone as an app compiler. There were actual apps on the App Store which used the functionality in Beta and were approved by Apple. Apple didn't have any technical issues with it and they didn't have to put forth any efforts to get it there.

Yet they blocked it and now claimed Adobe never shipped Flash for mobile devices... W. T. F. Lies, damn lies and Steve Jobs is what it is. This is about control.

 

[ikir]

Let's say that Apple allows a Flash Player on the iPhone. Web site developers can say, "we don't have to update our site now", so they don't. Web application developers can say, "we don't have to create an HTML version of our app", so they don't. After all, the easiest thing in the world to do is nothing at all. Pretty soon that "optional" Flash player becomes essential to seeing the web on an iPhone.

I don't dispute that a Flash Player today would make the web more usable on an iPhone. But the major thing that's driving adoption of HTML5 is the lack of that plugin. It's painful and frustrating, but in the long run, I think it does make the web a better place for users. That's why I said originally that it's not about denying users the choice, but rather that it's by denying users the choice that they discourage developers from building content that doesn't work well on the iPhone.

Yes most users don't understand tech things, they will only attack apple bacause these sites whould be low, battery hungry ecc....
Choice is important, but more important are smart choice. Flash is crap anyway and giving this choice will hurt more than benefit users.
Apple are not saying html$, XHTML1 or any other web tech are not suitable, but Flash.

 

[Anuba]

I don't think Adobe can afford to do that.

I never said they could. What I said, in response to another user who shrugged off the Adobe+OS X customer base as dispensable, is that this customer base is a cornerstone of Apple's Mac business and it would be very unwise to pee on them, no matter whether it's Adobe or Apple doing the urination.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Complete bullcrap.

You can run Flash on any major browser on Mac OSX. And also on Safari for Windows.

If you want to run Flash on an iDevice, buy an Android tablet or smartphone that runs Flash. Except that there isn't one. Now who's "deciding" for you?

Let me clarify as you seem to be taking comments too literally: I wasn't suggesting Flash can't run on Mac OS X computers, I was showing appreciation that as users of Apple computers, it's very nice to have the user OPTION to be able to do so. Or, another way of saying this now, I would not be very happy if Apple expanded this "we'll decide for you" battle with Adobe to strip out Flash from their/our computers as well.

The overall point is that user's should have the OPTION rather than Apple deciding for them. Those that don't want Flash on their iDevice shouldn't have it forced on them. And those that do shouldn't have it blocked from them. If Apple stepped out of the way in this regard it would fall entirely on Adobe to prove that Flash can run well (enough) on devices like Apple iDevices. If that failed, then it would be all Adobe's fault for NOT being able to deliver a quality experience with a Flash plugin option on iDevices.

However, as is, it doesn't matter if Adobe was able to code the world's most efficient incarnation of a Flash player especially for iDevices. If Apple won't allow it to be installed, those interested in Flash on iDevices can't OPTIONALLY use it anyway.

As to the argument of "if you want Flash, buy something else", that's just fine, but wouldn't it be better to get the many non-Flash benefits of buying an Apple iDevice PLUS the user OPTION of Flash too, rather than having to choose something less than an Apple iDevice, even if that happens to have a running version of Flash. Often these "pro Flash options on iDevices" are not about Flash being a paramount need for the user- just an added benefit that may occasionally- or even regularly- make a good product even more useful (to select users). Apple deciding to forbid it for all users makes a good product less useful for some users.

 

[John.B]

I've never commented on whether or not it's actually a viable solution to use only free stuff to make Flash apps. I've only said that you can, which is true.

Most flex developers would probably buy Flash Builder which will set you back around €200 for the full version.

Remind me again, because I must've missed it...

How is that "open"?

Looks an awful lot like Adobe is trying to be the single company who controls (and profits) from the "World Wide Web" (BTW, who calls it that anymore?):

In the end, we believe the question is really this: Who controls the World Wide Web? And we believe the answer is: nobody -- and everybody, but certainly not a single company.

 

[KnightWRX]

Yes most users don't understand tech things, they will only attack apple bacause these sites whould be low, battery hungry ecc....
Choice is important, but more important are smart choice. Flash is crap anyway and giving this choice will hurt more than benefit users.
Apple are not saying html$, XHTML1 or any other web tech are not suitable, but Flash.

When a damn OpenGL or Quartz game on my iPod Touch drains the battery in a few minutes, I don't blame Apple. I stop playing the game if I need the battery that badly.

This argument is complete bunk. Games on iPhone OS are terrible battery drains. Maybe Apple should ban all those games too uh ?

 

[Earendil]

So would I, a choice would be amazing, but we all know that Apple does not give you choices, they just tell you what you can and can't do with a device.

A choice would be amazing, but we all know that the consumers pretend like there is no choice. They just tell you that their choices are being taken away and limited by a company that they got in bed with.

I love Apple, but I also have no illusions about the devices I buy. My iPod touch has all the same abilities it did the day I bought it, and even a few more. When I buy the next gen iPhone I'll know all of its abilities, and I'll consider any bonus features over time to be just that, bonuses, not a right.

I understand people desiring Apple to take a certain path. I understand moral/ethical discussions of the pros and cons of the business decisions. But I don't understand costumers who willingly buy a product that functions just as it did the day they bought it, and 6-30 months later complain about how it lacks a feature that it never had. Apple has taken nothing away from it's costumer, how this we get this "I've been robbed and my rights trampled!" mentality really is beyond my imagination, and my imagination is pretty good.

 

[whooleytoo]

I never said they could. What I said, in response to another user who shrugged off the Adobe+OS X customer base as dispensable, is that this customer base is a cornerstone of Apple's Mac business and it would be very unwise to pee on them, no matter whether it's Adobe or Apple doing the urination.

Sure, I agree on that. Apple seems to be making bigger and better enemies these days, with Adobe, and the Apple-Google relationship souring. I'm not sure that's the wisest move they could make, in the long run.

 

[Earendil]

When a damn OpenGL or Quartz game on my iPod Touch drains the battery in a few minutes, I don't blame Apple. I stop playing the game if I need the battery that badly.

This argument is complete bunk. Games on iPhone OS are terrible battery drains. Maybe Apple should ban all those games too uh ?

You are not a typical user. The comment you were replying to was about the typical user. Therefore your entire post is, within the context of the person you replied to, pointless.

 

[macsmurf]

Remind me again, because I must've missed it...

How is that "open"?

It's open because the SDK is open source. It's free because the SDK is free. If you want an IDE that makes certain things easier, you'd have to buy it, but anything you can do in this IDE, you can do without it for free. You also have the choice of using a different IDE such as IntelliJ Idea (€564).

One of the benefits of Flash Builder is that you can create the GUI in a way similar to Interface Builder in Xcode, but you can also easily do this in code (usually declaratively using MXML). If you know GWT this is similar to using UIBinder for the GUI.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Adobe is suffering at the moment with some of the high-profile Flash sites abandoning the technology and the resultant negative PR; while Apple is riding higher than ever.

What high profile Flash sites are abandoning the technology? For any that you name, I would encourage you to try to access them on something other than Safari & Chrome and see if they load.

No site that wants to present rich media (not just video) can abandon Flash and go HTML5 + H.264 + javascript, unless they only care about their site actually showing such media only on Safari & Chrome browsers.

What sites with sufficient budgets & programming resource time are doing is creating versions for iDevices. That way they can serve their content to both the roughly 8% of the market that can properly consume HTML5 + h.264 + javascript rich media AS WELL AS the 97% of the world's computers that can display rich media via Flash.

Such companies would be completely foolish to abandon 95% of their potential rich media reach in support of HTML5 unless their content was only meant to be seen by Safari & Chrome browser users... or until a lot more of the computers in the world can actually display the HTML5 + h.264 + javascript version

 

[Edge100]

Flash = closed
HTML5 = open

End of story. Adobe's doublespeak is getting a bit tiresome.

 

[KnightWRX]

You are not a typical user. The comment you were replying to was about the typical user. Therefore your entire post is, within the context of the person you replied to, pointless.

Wait what ? Games on iPhone OS are not for typical users ? Why is the Games category one of the biggest on the app store then ?

Seriously, this forum is getting more ridiculous by the minute.

 

[deannnnn]

Steve shouldn't have written that open letter.

 

[Jaro65]

This is really getting ridiculous. It's like a frickin' political campaign at this point. It is mildly entertaining though. I wonder what Apple's response will be...

iH8 Flash

Don

I corrected it for you.

 

[quatermass]

We <3 software that doesn't suck
We <3 software that doesn't crash our machines
We <3 software that doesn't make them run hot enough to fry eggs on
We <3 not being preached to by an outfit that peddles overpriced bloatware
We <3 stuff that just works the way it's supposed to
We companies that buy their competitors so they can get rid of a superior product to theirs

Nuff said. Still hate Flash. Still won't use it.

 

[Anuba]

Sure, I agree on that. Apple seems to be making bigger and better enemies these days, with Adobe, and the Apple-Google relationship souring. I'm not sure that's the wisest move they could make, in the long run.

Right, it doesn't feel good at all, and all the fans who are cheering Steve on in his spontaneous crusade against Adobe need to realize that this isn't funny.

I'm a designer. I worked on PC for many years, started using Mac on the side some 5 years ago, and made the final switch to Mac about a year ago. I have a CS3 license for OS X and a CS4 license for Windows, and now I'm about to invest in CS5 Master Collection for either platform. It's a lot of money. I'd like to go with the Mac version, but as I'm using the 30-day trial I can't shake the feeling that there's a bit of reluctance built in. That maybe Adobe won't be trying as hard with the Mac version, maybe they'll care less about bugs, maybe they're supporting it out of necessity rather than commitment. I'm dubious, and as someone who's made a living using Adobe products for 15 years or thereabouts, and will probably continue to do so for 25 more years, this is crossroads... should I be doing this work in OS X or BootCamp+Win7? Where is this Adobe vs. Apple fight going? Will it spill over from Flash into other areas?

Grow the **** up, Adobe and Apple.

 

[allpar]

CS4 didn't tell you that Adobe was lukewarm with Apple?

Do yourself a favor, really - just upgrade Photoshop and ignore the rest if you can, or wait. Especially now that the Dreamweaver bugs are really, really, really obvious.

 

[niuniu]

If Apple really had balls they'd have developed HTML 5 and competed directly instead of trying to monopolise the web by using their hardware to cut out competition to HTML 5.

Choice anyone? Anyway, enjoy your Hulu. Oh nevermind..