Advice needed on a new purchase

[leman]

Sorry you are wrong and need look at global pricing

I am looking at official pricing in the Microsoft Store. If you are getting any special deals, thats a different matter. I can get any Macs 15-20% off official pricing. Still, I don't calculate this in when comparing prices. Or are prices in retail stores that much lower for the SB? What I see here in retailers more or less mirrors the official prices.

My own i7 256 SSD with dGPU Surface Book was just $63 more expensive than Apple's 13" non Touch Bar MBP with i7 CPU

Sure, because the MBP uses the high-performance i7-6567U with L3 cache, which commands a healthy premium over the low-power i7-6600U used my Microsoft. That i7 in the SB is at best equivalent to the i5 used by the touch-bar — so you are looking at few hundreds $ less on the MBP side for the same CPU performance.

BTW, from looking at the 3dmark results I am a bit surprised that the 940M in the SB actually benches lower than the Iris 550 in the 13" MBP in Could Gate and Time Spy. Go figure. Must be a fluke, it should be 20-25% faster. It is faster in FireStrike, but then of course the combined score is very low due to the weak CPU.

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I can only speak from my own experience, Apple' s current solution serves the consumer, 80% of the time dongles & adaptors work as advertised, the issue is the 20% where you are stranded 100% thx to Apple. As a someone who actually uses their Mac's on a professional environment it's simply embarrassing when this "Premium Product" is incapable of connecting to something as simple as a projector, naturally it's the manufacture of the projector fault not Apple's

Sorry, but I can't replicate your experience. We run a research department here, we have a healthy number of people using the USB-C models and they travel around the world and the country all the time giving talks and connecting to projectors. The only trouble we had was in the beginning when we forgot to order enough USB-C-to-HDMI adapters. Works just as well as with any Mac before it. And yes, I'd be happier if manufacturers start adding USB-C output to beamers, that will finally solve a lot of issues.

 

[Queen6]

I am looking at official pricing in the Microsoft Store. If you are getting any special deals, thats a different matter. I can get any Macs 15-20% off official pricing. Still, I don't calculate this in when comparing prices. Or are prices in retail stores that much lower for the SB? What I see here in retailers more or less mirrors the official prices.



Sure, because the MBP uses the high-performance i7-6567U with L3 cache, which commands a healthy premium over the low-power i7-6600U used my Microsoft. That i7 in the SB is at best equivalent to the i5 used by the touch-bar — so you are looking at few hundreds $ less on the MBP side for the same CPU performance.

BTW, from looking at the 3dmark results I am a bit surprised that the 940M in the SB actually benches lower than the Iris 550 in the 13" MBP in Could Gate and Time Spy. Go figure. Must be a fluke, it should be 20-25% faster. It is faster in FireStrike, but then of course the combined score is very low due to the week CPU.

Truthfully as an owner and user of both 13" MBP and Surface Book you have no idea what your talking about, rather cherry picking to suit your personal bias, which at best is disappointing...

Q-6

 

[leman]

The base model I saw at Best Buy was priced at $1,299.

Oh, do they discount them $200 in stores? Not bad. I assume that is for the 128GB model? You can get a refurb (good as new) 13" 2016 MBP from Apple for $1,269.00. It has twice as much storage space (which is also much faster) as well as a faster GPU.
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Truthfully as an owner and user of both 13" MBP and Surface Book you have no idea what your talking about, rather cherry picking to suit your personal bias...

Q-6

We have two Surface Books as well. Yes, my opinion of that computer is fairly low. Its bulkier than my 15" model and ridiculously overpriced for the cheap internal components it uses. But sure, you can use it as a situational tablet that will run out of battery after few hours.

P.S. Also, I am again and again surprised that every time we start this discussion and I start quoting numbers (benchmark scores, models, specs, internal components prices), you inevitably accuse me of "cherry picking to suit my personal bias". The facts are: the SB is a 2-in-1 computer that uses low-tier CPUs and trades form factor for larger battery and a dedicated GPU (which again, is very weird to me given the pairing with the CPUs from lower performance spectrum). Its certainly an original and interesting design. But it should be priced few hundred dollars less. The margins on Surface devices are ridiculous even according to Apple standards.

 

[Queen6]

Oh, do they discount them $200 in stores? Not bad. I assume that is for the 128GB model? You can get a refurb (good as new) 13" 2016 MBP from Apple for $1,269.00. It has twice as much storage space (which is also much faster) as well as a faster GPU.
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We have two Surface Books as well. Yes, my opinion of that computer is fairly low. Its bulkier than my 15" model and ridiculously overpriced for the cheap internal components it uses. But sure, you can use it as a situational tablet that will run out of battery after few hours.

Surface Book is a direct competitor to the 13" MPB however the zealots will alway twist it to be the 15" MBP as it's clearly is a more powerful system. I wonder what you will do if Microsoft presents a 15" Surface notebook? Compare it to the iMac

If Apple had the better solution I would be using it for one simple reason "revenue" a point worth thinking on...

Q-6

 

[SteveJUAE]

Maybe I'm not watching the right reviewers, but everything I've seen on the TouchBar ranges from total gimmick to wait and see.

It's a pretty slow and cumbersome way to input compared with mouse/trackpad/keyboard, but I can see it having a few use cases eventually.

It certainly isn't something I'd pay money for.

I agree :

Many dislike the TB
Many wish there was a no TB version on the 15" MBP
Many professionals miss the physical esc key

 

[leman]

Clueless; Surface Book is a direct competitor to the 13" MPB however the zealots will alway twist it to be the 15" MBP as it's clearly is a more powerful system.

Of course it is. But its still a fact that it is bulkier (albeit lighter) than a 15" MBP. Don't really understand why you have to get this emotional about this.

I wonder what you will do if Microsoft presents a 15" Surface notebook?

One compares based on points of comparison, no? CPU-wise, the SB is a more like a MacBook Air. Form-factor-wise, its comparable to the 15" MBP. Again, I don't get why the mentioning of this simple fact upsets you so much. Dimensions and specs all in the public domain. And if Microsofts presents a 15" Surface notebook and it happens to be 20cm thick, then I will even compare it to my mattress

 

[Altis]

One compares based on points of comparison, no? CPU-wise, the SB is a more like a MacBook Air. Form-factor-wise, its comparable to the 15" MBP. Again, I don't get why the mentioning of this simple fact upsets you so much. Dimensions and specs all in the public domain. And if Microsofts presents a 15" Surface notebook and it happens to be 20cm thick, then I will even compare it to my mattress

My Accord coupe has the footprint as a minivan or SUV, and even similar engine, but I doubt most people cross-shop them.

 

[leman]

My Accord coupe has the footprint as a minivan or SUV, and even similar engine, but I doubt most people cross-shop them.

Sure, but here the relative importance of factors becomes relevant. Portability/small form factor is a desirable feature in a laptop for many users (and a size of the car is probably less of a concern). In particular, since I have to carry my laptop around a lot, portability is very important to me personally. At the same time, I also don't want to sacrifice performance. The reason why I personally am not interested in a Surface Book is because it doesn't give me any more mobility (in fact, it doesn't give me anything) over a 15" MBP, but comes with a significant cut to performance. I have no issues with the fact that other people might have other needs. Again, this is only about the relevance of the form factor. I am certainly not suggesting that the SB and 15" are competitor devices (even though, looking at price of the "performance base" models, one might be tempted to do so).

 

[Queen6]

One compares based on points of comparison, no? CPU-wise, the SB is a more like a MacBook Air. Form-factor-wise, its comparable to the 15" MBP. Again, I don't get why the mentioning of this simple fact upsets you so much. Dimensions and specs all in the public domain. And if Microsofts presents a 15" Surface notebook and it happens to be 20cm thick, then I will even compare it to my mattress

As stated you have no idea, of real world usage of the Surface Book, I personally have no stake or interest in Microsoft, equally as an individual who relies on their income from their computing solutions the Surface Book is a dam sight more useful than the new MBP.

It's genuinely funny, I am far from upset as I have a solid solution, the fact is you are incapable of admitting that for my needs the Surface Book is the better option, equally I can see that the new 2016 MBP may serve others more than adequately.

But it's thicker, have you any idea how trite this is, given the needs of a professional user.....

Q-6

 

[Sanpete]

You are absolutely wrong in your assumptions, if I am a Apple hater, Please Explain why I have over 20 years experience with Apple's desktop OS and hardware both personally and in professional roles? !@#$ you got me I've been deep cover all this time for Microsoft Time to wake up and knock off you obvious and blatant bias, your not fooling anyone, you are a Shill plain a

Q-6

Incredible. I didn't say you're an Apple hater. You're a new MBP hater, obviously.

Maybe I'm not watching the right reviewers, but everything I've seen on the TouchBar ranges from total gimmick to wait and see.

I think most people respond as you indicate, but it's plainly false that the new MBP hasn't been designed for pro use and that the touch bar is for "noobs" as stated above. There are plenty of pros who find it very useful, some who have posted here about it, and others you can easily find with google if this interests you. Scrubbing videos and sound files are among the favorite functions, and in some programs the substitutes for keyboard shortcuts, and sometimes functions that have no shortcuts, are preferred by those who are more accustomed to a touch interface.

 

[leman]

the fact is you are incapable of admitting that for my needs the Surface Book is the better option

How did you get to that conclusion? I don't remember ever claiming it. All I said is that I don't like the Surface Book and give you a number of reasons why I don't like it or why I think that it is too expensive. If it works out for you, I am more than happy. People in our workspace who use their Surface Books, are also very satisfied.

What I find most interesting about this entire Surface thing is that it agains shows that smart marketing works wonders. One can indeed use low-tier components in a product while asking a premium price, but if the product is shiny enough, even apparently intelligent and tech-savy people won't complain about the lack of technical details. At the same time, other companies, who attempt to be more honest in this regards, get criticised, because they are not using low-tier components. I find this fascinating and also a bit scary.

 

[Queen6]

Incredible. I didn't say you're an Apple hater. You're a new MBP hater, obviously.

It's simply not a useful tool...

Q-6

 

[Sanpete]

It's simply not a useful tool...

For those who ignore other views, everything is simple. Obviously it's a very useful tool for many, including many pros.

 

[Queen6]

How did you get to that conclusion? I don't remember ever claiming it. All I said is that I don't like the Surface Book and give you a number of reasons why I don't like it or why I think that it is too expensive. If it works out for you, I am more than happy. People in our workspace who use their Surface Books, are also very satisfied.

What I find most interesting about this entire Surface thing is that it agains shows that smart marketing works wonders. One can indeed use low-tier components in a product while asking a premium price, but if the product is shiny enough, even apparently intelligent and tech-savy people won't complain about the lack of technical details. At the same time, other companies, who attempt to be more honest in this regards, get criticised, because they are not using low-tier components. I find this fascinating and also a bit scary.

Interesting that you are compelled to resort to basic semantics "low powered" "low tier" yet as an actual owner and user of both Microsoft`s Surface Book it excels. If the 13" MacBook Pro was the better notebook I would be responding on one now as we speak, for one fundamental reason...$$$$

Q-6

 

[Altis]

Scrubbing videos and sound files are among the favorite functions, and in some programs the substitutes for keyboard shortcuts, and sometimes functions that have no shortcuts, are preferred by those who are more accustomed to a touch interface.

If shortcuts and scrubbing are the two most useful cases that can be made for it, then it's really nothing great.

Shortcuts can already be done on the keyboard more quickly and without looking.

For those who ignore other views, everything is simple. Obviously it's a very useful tool for many, including many pros.

How is that obvious?

I haven't seen a single review that praised the touchbar, even the most pro-Apple ones. The most optimistic were that it could have future uses (though you'd think that the most pertinent use cases would be available initially, followed by more niche uses later). I'm not saying that nobody likes it... it would sure be interesting to see how many people would choose to pay more for it over the standard buttons if Apple offered both.

It's really easy to assert generally that "many" like something because it's impossible to invalidate -- but that makes it arbitrarily unhelpful.

Many people also preferred not having the TB (having the physical buttons), or USB-A ports, or a keyboard with some travel.

 

[SteveJUAE]

It's simply not a useful tool...

Q-6

I agree it's likely there are just as many or more who think this.

Similarly there is many who feel it is it is a less pro generation, less useful etc etc

Why some think the "Many" is only limited to the pro side of any discussion is beyond me

Having said that there are some users like Leman who no doubt get excellent usage etc from his 15" tbMBP

I'm not sure why we are going around in circles on the SB where the comments would equally apply to the 13" tbMBP and about any other laptop for his workflow

Lets have a time out on this one now IMO

 

[Sanpete]

If shortcuts and scrubbing are the two most useful cases that can be made for it, then it's really nothing great.

Shortcuts can already be done on the keyboard more quickly and without looking.

Nothing great to you, you mean. For those who care about those things, it is great. A lot of people today prefer a touchscreen interface, but some don't want to mark up a beautiful laptop screen, so the touch bar is a good workaround for them.

How is that obvious?

I haven't seen a single review that praised the touchbar, even the most pro-Apple ones. ...

It's really easy to assert generally that "many" like something because it's impossible to invalidate -- but that makes it arbitrarily unhelpful.

Wasn't talking about the touch bar specifically but the new MBP as a whole. It's obvious from the multitude of comments here and elsewhere that the new MBP is a very useful tool for many, including many pros.

As I said before, if you're interested in views from pros who love the touch bar and find it increases their productivity, try Google. Or read the threads about it here.

it would sure be interesting to see how many people would choose to pay more for it over the standard buttons if Apple offered both. ...

Many people also preferred not having the TB (having the physical buttons), or USB-A ports, or a keyboard with some travel.

Yes, many do prefer the old ways, and it would be interesting to see how many would choose to pay more for the new ones.

I agree it's likely there are just as many or more who think this.

Based on what?

Why some think the "Many" is only limited to the pro side of any discussion is beyond me

Never seen anyone say or imply such a thing.

 

[SteveJUAE]

It's really easy to assert generally that "many" like something because it's impossible to invalidate -- but that makes it arbitrarily unhelpful.

Absolutely agree "Many" is so over used it's a joke, as in the few I just recently posted

Most have little or no factual basis and are just rhetoric in an attempt to reinforce some arbitrary point

 

[Sanpete]

Absolutely agree "Many" is so over used it's a joke, as in the few I just recently posted

Most have little or no factual basis and are just rhetoric in an attempt to reinforce some arbitrary point

Sheer nonsense. It's quite plain on the basis I mentioned than many pros find the new MBP to be a useful professional tool. It isn't hard to validate that. One need only read the comments from pros. What remains mysterious is the basis for you thinking more feel it isn't useful than feel it is.

 

[Queen6]

Sheer nonsense. It's quite plain on the basis I mentioned than many pros find the new MBP to be a useful professional tool. It isn't hard to validate that. One need only read the comments from pros. What remains mysterious is the basis for you thinking more feel it isn't useful than feel it is.

I am a working professional (globally) and know many in other streams outside my own, yet not one individual I personally know owns or is considering/planning on purchasing the 2016 MPB. They are either switching platforms or looking at ways to expand their current hardware. This is also quite plain and can be seen from the response on this forum and others regarding Apple, nor difficult to validate...

"Many" is a frequently over used term, easily thrown out there, with no real substantiation; nobody, not one, those I know who have tried the new MBP have returned them for similar reasons;

Worth watching if your considering a new MBP

Q-6

 

[leman]

Interesting that you are compelled to resort to basic semantics "low powered" "low tier" yet as an actual owner and user of both Microsoft`s Surface Book it excels. If the 13" MacBook Pro was the better notebook I would be responding on one now as we speak, for one fundamental reason...$$$$

Because they are low-tier CPU! Man, just look up the basic facts before giving an emotional rant like this. Intel Skylake lineup and specs is publicly available info. SurfaceBook uses the low-powered (15Watt) variant of the dual-core mobile Skylake, and of that, it uses the lower-tier models (cut down in half GPU, no L3 cache). This is a MacBook-Air class CPU (in fact, its a tier below MacBook Air). The new MacBook Pro uses either the higher-tier 15W part (with full GPU, more cache and additional L3 cache) for the lower-end model or a higher-power, high-tier 28W part for the touch bar models.

With the Surface Book you are getting the cheapest and slowest i5/i7 CPUs that Intel has in their product lineup. With the MBP, you are getting the fastest and more expensive ones. These are basic facts. And of course this doesn't make the Surface Book slow, all of these CPUs are plenty fast. But the fact remains that they are objectively lower-end parts. And that will manifest itself in sustained demanding workflows. These CPUs simply have lower clocks and less thermal headroom compared to their higher-powered 28W counterparts. And moreso, they are cheaper, and probably significantly so. Intel has not released any official pricing on those high-tier 28W parts, probably because the availability is very limited, but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple pays $50-100 more on average for their CPUs than what Microsoft pays for theirs.
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This is also quite plain and can be seen from the response on this forum and others regarding Apple, nor difficult to validate...

And many of those responses come from you and a dozen or so other very active users Yet when one starts a poll to "validate" this, for some reason the positive votes are always in majority.

 

[Queen6]

Because they are low-tier CPU! Man, just look up the basic facts before giving an emotional rant like this. Intel Skylake lineup and specs is publicly available info. SurfaceBook uses the low-powered (15Watt) variant of the dual-core mobile Skylake, and of that, it uses the lower-tier models (cut down in half GPU, no L3 cache). This is a MacBook-Air class CPU (in fact, its a tier below MacBook Air). The new MacBook Pro uses either the higher-tier 15W part (with full GPU, more cache and additional L3 cache) for the lower-end model or a higher-power, high-tier 28W part for the touch bar models.

With the Surface Book you are getting the cheapest and slowest i5/i7 CPUs that Intel has in their product lineup. With the MBP, you are getting the fastest and more expensive ones. These are basic facts. And of course this doesn't make the Surface Book slow, all of these CPUs are plenty fast. But the fact remains that they are objectively lower-end parts. And that will manifest itself in sustained demanding workflows. These CPUs simply have lower clocks and less thermal headroom compared to their higher-powered 28W counterparts. And moreso, they are cheaper, and probably significantly so. Intel has not released any official pricing on those high-tier 28W parts, probably because the availability is very limited, but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple pays $50-100 more on average for their CPUs than what Microsoft pays for theirs.

Only one of us "ranting here Like I said I own both MBP"s & SB and use them professionally, difference between the two CPU's in real world use is negligible, outside of synthetic benchmarks forget it. BTW last time I checked the L3 Cache on my Surface Book was healthy and doing very well thx what to say
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And many of those responses come from you and a dozen or so other very active users Yet when one starts a poll to "validate" this, for some reason the positive votes are always in majority

As are the posts from a very vocal minority constantly evangelising the new MBP, equally the numbers don't always support the case. In many instances it's longterm Mac users such as myself who have issue with the current iteration of the MBP...


54% against, with 7% undecided, rather speaks for itself...

Q-6

 

[leman]

Only one of us "ranting here Like I said I own both MBP"s & SB and use them professionally, difference between the two CPU's in real world use is negligible, outside of synthetic benchmarks forget it. BTW last time I checked the L3 Cache on my surface ebook was healthy and doing very thx what to say

As I said, if you are ok with paying premium price for lower-end components, thats your choice. Whether your admit it or not, the difference exists and its very real. And its exactly synthetic benchmarks that won't show you the difference (burst performance of those CPUs if very close) — real world usage will. Just try doing something more intense than MacRumors for some time and the lack of thermal headroom will be visible quite quickly. As I said, my problem is not with the fact that those are lower-end 15W parts — that is a very capable CPU that is more then suitable for an average user. My problem is that Microsoft does not mate it clear to the user that they are using lower-end parts and that they are pricing their computers as if they were using higher-end parts. Thats all.

As are the posts from a very vocal minority constantly evangelising the new MBP, equally the numbers don't always support the case. In many instances it's longterm Mac users such as myself who have issue with the current iteration of the MBP...

Oh my, 54% of responded said that they won't upgrade to the new model, what a disaster. You do understand a difference between "Are you going to upgrade" and "Do you think its a good computer"? Go look at the actual owner experience polls, and not a first-minute polls that was created before anyone had the opportunity to try that computer and the forums were full of "OMG NO KABY LAKE" "OMG NOOBBAR" "OMG NO PORTS" "OMG FLAT KEYBOARD"

 

[576316]

I'll be swapping my main machine (2012 rMBP 15") for a custom build PC, as this MacBook is no longer keeping up with what I need it to do for my games programming degree (I'm keeping the MacBook though!). Windows has come a long way since the days of Windows Vista and Windows 7, and Windows 10 is actually a decent looking OS. My biggest issues is finding 'pretty' alternatives to Mac software. I'm yet to find a browser that looks as good as Safari! Plus, I have Pixelmator on my Mac but there's nothing similar for PC without forking out for Photoshop...and I really don't like GIMPshop.

PS. I presume you have a none-retina MacBook Pro? Cause lots are recommending upgrading RAM, which you absolutely cannot do with a Retina machine.

 

[SarcasticJoe]

I see Queen6 is up to his usual stuff and shilling his Surface... The fact that he does this at every chance he gets should tell you enough about what you should think about his advice on the topic.

Seriously thou, if cost genuinely is an issue then I have to recommend at least looking into that older machine with an SSD and some additional RAM. Specially the SSD will speed the machine up absolutely immensely and I should know this as I updated my 2011 model with one years ago. Not too long ago I had to use one that didn't have an SSD and I found out that I'd gotten so used to the performance under an SSD that the machine with the mechanical drive felt painfully slow in comparison even thou it was my computer's equivalent in every other regard.

The upgrade to an SSD and more RAM is essentially 70-80% of the befit, but less than 20% of the price.