After erasing & reinstalling Leopard, applications (Safari, Itunes) not starting

Discussion in 'PowerPC Macs' started by Lud DiLettante, Dec 17, 2015.

  1. Lud DiLettante macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #1
    My G5 Dual had a complete freeze while on Safari/Leopard Webkit. When that happened I had to shut down manually and after restarting, my new backup drive proved irreparable. Then, strangely enough, only 2 days later the main drive stopped working too. I had to use my Ibook to get all the important stuff from my G5 HD, in target disk mode. I had the G5's backup drive replaced in the shop, and then I could move the bigger files there. After that I finally was able to erase and reinstall Leopard onto the main drive from my original 10.5.4 DVD. Then I began moving stuff there from the other drives. (I now wonder for instance if one should get all software updates first before importing anything from backups...)
    It's been an arduous task. I must have made mistakes too. One was probably that I didn't save enough applications as they had been on my previous Leopard. I've copied some from the Ibook. (I did save libraries in the home folder, and I've repaired tons of permissions.)

    But, some applications won't start now, including Safari, which is central as I can't get to download anything without it either. I did reinstall Webkit from my archive, and also tried Safari without it, but same result. The internet connection itself works, however, and I got the combo updates etc. (Yes, I did ignore the Safari update over Webkit.)
    I'd have to copy hang reports onto a USB drive to paste them here... but I do have a few short crash messages from Dyld : 4 times I got "Symbol not found: _kCACFLayer" (expected in QuartzCore), and once I got "Symbol not found: _WebActionFormKey" (expected in Webkit. Not sure now if some of those occurred when trying the default Safari...)

    Itunes won't start either, it just asks for Quicktime 7.5.5 or newer, although I have 7.7... Other times I just get a "?" over the Itunes icon.

    I have no other browser, so obviously I should either fix something in situ to get Safari working, or import something from another drive. Should I copy the latest Webkit from the Ibook to the G5..?
     
  2. MacCubed macrumors 68000

    MacCubed

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    #2
    I would reinstall again, run all the software updates, and then put your stuff back on. There might be something wrong with the items on the backup you made, so I would be careful
     
  3. eyoungren macrumors P6

    eyoungren

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    #3
    I think the major problem here is the copying back over of stock apps. Unlike the OS9 days it's just not that easy.

    The updates tend to install frameworks, kext files and libraries along with receipts. If none of that stuff is installed most of the apps will fail to function.

    MacCube's advice is the best bet here. All of your stock apps (including Safari) will be installed. Update, update until there are no more updates to run. Then if you wish to install Leopard Webkit do so.

    As for the rest of your apps, unless you know where all the support files are installed I would suggest reinstalling rather than just copying over.
     
  4. Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #4
    Thanks for the replies! I'll report here once I get ahead, which may not be very soon as I'm fairly tired of all the fuss I already went through... But, see you later.
     
  5. Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #5
    OK, I re-reinstalled last night. Then I ran updates for as long as they kept coming. I also discovered the joys of the Migration Assistant (although I think I ended up only using it for some apps because I worried I might get into some file permission mess or something). I then manually moved home folders, taking extra care with some libraries etc. Then I installed other third-party stuff such as Webkit, pasted in host files, etc. Finally I ran Onyx (hoping it didn't cancel anything I'd done previously ;D ).

    So, Safari and just about everything else started to work, glory be. Except... the damn Itunes. I had updated it as far as it got (10.6.3) but it still says it needs Quicktime 7.5.5 or newer. For some reason I'm not getting a QT update beyond 7.0 (I think it was) so I tried with the 7.7 from my Ibook again. But I get the same message with both versions... Maybe I should (re)install some version of Quicktime..? (I never before even knew Itunes needs QT.)

    Finally, I also got a bit of a twist ending when I was getting ready to shut down... the "You need to restart..." screen of death! No idea why. But after that things have seemed fine again... Forgot to use the install DVD to verify the disk, though. Will have to do that.
     
  6. MacCubed macrumors 68000

    MacCubed

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    #6
    Download the update from apple
     
  7. Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #7
    I hate to say this, but the G5 gets kernel panic at boot now. I downloaded that Quicktime update from Apple, but at the restart I got the black veil of death...

    Certain things might have factored in.
    1) When the Mac was shutting down to restart, Safari wouldn't quit in time. It did eventually, but I had to re-initiate the restart.
    2) At the time of shutdown I noticed Time Machine was backing up.
    3) Then, because I'd had a kernel panic shutting down last night, and happened to have the install DVD inside, I thought I should boot with C down and verify the disk right then. Maybe that was stupid..? I just thought the Quicktime install will wait for its turn...

    The install DVD Disk Utility reported both hard drives were OK. But still there's a kernel panic after the Apple logo every time I boot from the hard drive.

    I'm now on Ibook, looking at various instructions I found on the net, so it's not as if I'm relying on a reply from anybody on this forum... But then, maybe somebody could suggest something relating to my specific case. Any help will surely be appreciated...
     
  8. MacCubed macrumors 68000

    MacCubed

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  9. Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #9
    OK. Maybe tomorrow. Or later... If I have to erase the disk again, then for some things I'll have to rely on the one Time Machine backup that should be on the second drive. (Will have to verify that... Never restored anything from TM before, either.) Have a nice day..!
     
  10. Lud DiLettante, Dec 23, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2015

    Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #10
    What I ended up doing (as I was getting sick of erase/reinstall etc) was booting in safe mode, was happy enough for a while that I at least got in without a kernel panic, started repairing permissions, but then got the panic.

    Booted from install DVD, repaired the perms, verified disk.

    Meant to boot in safe mode again in order to remove the Quicktime install stuff, but slipped into full mode. But, no kernel panic! Removed the Quicktime stuff anyway and re-downloaded/installed the QT from Apple. Itunes works perfect now, so does everything else.

    But, if I start getting any more panics at any point I might (have to) reinstall everything once again. Thanks everybody and have a nice Christmas. (If that's your thing)
     
  11. Hrududu macrumors 68020

    Hrududu

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    #11
    If you're still getting kernel panics after multiple reinstalls, you need to check your install DVD and the HDD you're installing onto for problems. It's also possible you have other hardware problems causing the software issues.
     
  12. Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #12
    Thanks for the tip. No kernel panics here since last reported, though. :)
     
  13. Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #13
    I suppose I had it coming... but since last time I've had problems again.
    4 times, the K-panic veil of death has fallen.
    Once a boot got stuck at blue screen.
    Some Safari & other app crashes.
    A couple of times, a similar freeze as at the beginning of this thread - but, I've discovered a simple fix that I should have tried way back, before force-shutting the "original" freeze and starting this thread... Recently when I got the cursor freeze (and no keyboard tricks worked) I realized all I have to do is reconnect the mouse!!
    I'm sure by now my manual shutdowns etc caused much more problems than the cursor freezes... But here I am.

    My both drives seem to be in various stages of disrepair - depending on how/where I check. I get different information on both drives from the main drive Disk Utility and from the one on the install DVD... (The install disk itself passes all tests as intact.)
    But, for instance verifying the main drive on the DVD may change the former to "irreparable" yet it still keeps booting and working fine... (until a crash, of course).
    AND, if I quit DU and restart it, I may get different info every time, different gray-outs etc.
    I may have forgotten before, that by repeating repairs one might get the disk repaired even if DU has said it couldn't be repaired. Yesterday I repeated repairs and suddenly DU said the repair was successful..! By now I really don't know what's reliable and what's not, though.

    So, I may reinstall once again but I'm also looking at Hrududu's post, among other things. Obviously, I use Disk Utility all the time. Not sure if Hrududu was suggesting something beyond that.

    I'm sure reinstalling would fix many things for some time at least.
    But still, here's one strange detail that might or might not be important:
    The G5 has assumed the name of my Ibook. That must be from when I did stuff in target disk mode from the Ibook (I wonder how that's possible though). Didn't figure yet how I might be able to change it back, or indeed whether it really matters (I do know how to change disk names, though).

    So, what should I consider first, beyond repeated reinstalls..?

    1) An Apple keyboard..? My original one stopped working ages ago. I have a Logitech DiNovo Mac but I've had worries about it for a long time, too... at times enough to make me wonder if it's been planted with malware or something... In recent times the power button hasn't stayed on, I have a rubber band around the keyboard to keep it fixed but even that's not reliable... So for instance special boots aren't always successful... Logitech does tend to show at the top of kext lists in the panic reports but as I can't really interpret those I don't know if they're connected to the panic.
    Any recommendations for a G5 compatible keyboard..?

    2) Quit using Time Machine (again), or fix it somehow..? I always liked TM in theory and wanted it to work reliably, but it seemed to keep corrupting my old LaCie backup drives... I'm wondering if it could be (part) responsible for my problems now, too.

    3) A new main drive..?

    4-X) Linux..? A new computer..? A life..?!
     
  14. eyoungren macrumors P6

    eyoungren

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    #14
    The only suggestion I have for you right now is DiskWarrior.

    If you can get a copy of DW it can check/repair your drive. Much better than Disk Utility (which is pretty useless).

    Version 4.4 is the last available on DVD and can repair systems from OS9 up to Yosemite.

    http://alsoft.com
     
  15. jbarley macrumors 68030

    jbarley

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    #15
    To change your G5 name back...go to
    System Preferences->Sharing, now edit the name shown.

    Picture 1.JPG
     
  16. Lud DiLettante, Jan 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016

    Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #16
    Thanks, Jbarley, that worked!

    Thanks to Eyoungren too. But... DiskWarrior was about the first thing I remember considering and I was close to buying one but then I happened to read a post by Linc Davis, who has seemed to me something like the ultimate authority on the Apple discussion forum... the page may not have been this one but the reply seems to be his stock answer. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6478643?start=0&tstart=0
    His main point is "Disk Warrior is an expensive and specialized application whose only use is to try to recover data from a damaged volume that Disk Utility can't repair, and for which there are no backups."
    And: "What it does—recreating a volume directory—can be done better and faster for free by erasing the volume and restoring from a backup."
    So, this was what I proceeded to do instead of getting DiskWarrior.

    Yes, Disk Utility doesn't seem to be repairing my disks for good. But all the data does seem to be accessible on both of them.
    It seems that in such case Davis would recommend getting a new drive instead of DiskWarrior - and I could even get one for less money than DW.
    Also, the backup drive has warranty and I suppose I could get it replaced, once again. It seems they don't worry much about what might have caused the malfunction... So, maybe I could get a completely new drive first, then move my stuff onto it, and then replace the backup drive too (or maybe just get both new drives at once if I decide to rely solely on my original drive for the data).

    Still, I wonder what the chances are of problems getting restored along with the backups. What things could get corrupted in such ways as to corrupt new drives too..?
    This is what I was wondering about Time Machine for instance. Also, could corruption lurk on devices such as the keyboard/software..?
    And, I almost forgot about the internal hardware. I don't know anything about checking any of that.
    I just wish I won't end up doing expensive or time-consuming stuff in vain...
     
  17. eyoungren macrumors P6

    eyoungren

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    #17
    DiskWarrior is different than other repair apps because what it does is find, correct and rebuild a good hard drive directory.

    Linc Davis may argue that restoring from a backup is better, but what if the directory in the backup is marginal or corrupt? I would also argue with him over the fact that there are no backups.

    It is considerably easier for me to boot from DW and repair my drive or attach my Mac via Target Disk Mode to another Mac and just use DW than it is to restore from a backup or a clone.

    Lastly, recreating the volume directory, although the main thing DW does is not ALL it does. That is an oversimplification. DiskWarrior can fix a "Keys out of Order" error as well as other disk errors caused by corruption. That's something Disk Utility cannot do and which would require a restore or reinstall of the OS.

    And, yes DW can recover data. And if your hard drive is bad and some of your data has gone bad - isn't that what you want? And DW will do it in less time than restoring from a backup or cloning.

    He seems to be arguing that DW is not a maintenance tool, it's a recovery tool.

    Fair enough and I have no hard evidence to support my thoughts on the issue other than my opinion. I use it about once a week or so as maintenance on the Macs at work. I might add that it detected my mother's bad hard drive this weekend which I was then able to replace for her.

    So, you have Linc Davis's side of it and you have my side of it. That's all I can offer you is my advice/opinion.

    In all honesty, it seems you may have some bad hard drives. If that is the case, even DiskWarrior will only keep you going for a short while before the drive fails.
     
  18. Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #18
    OK. Thanks for offering "your side". Now I worry for my money as it seems like I might have to get *both* DiskWarrior *and* new drives... in order to have an intact directory on an intact drive. Maybe I will. There just always seem to be all these sneaky little "what ifs" waiting around the corner. I'll sleep on it, for now...
     
  19. Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #19
    Well, even Linc Davis seems to admit something about DiskWarrior beyond his stock answer... https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6794794?start=0&tstart=0
    He says "Disk Warrior is indeed useless if you have adequate backups".
    But, would "adequate" here entail an intact directory?
    And "Disk Warrior is sometimes able to recover a damaged HFS volume that Disk Utility can't repair. If you're in that position, and you have no current backups of the volume, you should go to an Apple Store, where the program is available for use on customers' machines at no charge".
    I suspect "volume" here would mean one with an intact directory again, as opposed to just the files?

    I read a little about the Hierarchical File System and the article is full of the words I always get in red on Disk Utility reports. Also, (e)you(ngren) already mentioned the "Keys out of order" error which is one I've been getting on various drives for years, along with other key-related errors... The funny thing, though, is that the last time I used DU on my backup drive it claimed the repair was successful (for a change), despite the key-related errors etc.... (and I don't think that was the first time.)

    I was about to call a local Apple store (yes, in Helsinki, Finland..!) today although I find it hard to believe they'd want to run DiskWarrior on my G5, for free at least. I might try to call tomorrow.
    The idea of "free" vs. $120 is kind of irresistible... Not with crack copies though, especially with something that requires perfect reliability. I was surprised at how many illicit downloads (on Youtube, Docs.google...) were openly on offer by simply googling DiskWarrior... (also "free trial" versions of DW are advertised on CNet, Tucows etc, but they lead to Alsoft upgrade downloads... "trial" upgrades..?! Of course, the idea of a free trial DW sounds ridiculous anyway.)

    You mentioned version 4.4. I can only see "5" available on the Alsoft site at least. I realize the older one would have to be cheaper. You mentioned it's the last available on DVD - are there other reasons to prefer that over the flash drive version besides the price..?
     
  20. eyoungren macrumors P6

    eyoungren

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    #20
    Adequate backups. Meaning, I suspect, current backups.

    But yes, backups with a clean, uncorrupted directory is the point I was trying to make earlier. What good does it do to restore a backup that has a corrupted directory?

    Yes, there are lots of "free" versions of DW out there. Most legit, even if the process of getting it is not.

    As to 4.4/5.0…DW 4.4 comes on a DVD that can be used in any Mac, Intel or PC. DW 5.0 comes on a Flash drive. Which is fine if you have a Mac that can boot from USB without having to go into Open Firmware (mainly Intel Macs).

    The program lets you make a specific USB boot drive on another USB stick but it is specific to the Mac you make it for only. That can be a problem if all you have is an Intel Mac and you are trying to get DW 5 to work on a PowerPC Mac.

    Hence, why the DVD only version (4.4) may be preferable to you.
     
  21. Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #21
    This is a such a farce. I might laugh at some point...

    After a total iceberg freeze I finally wised up and bought a new drive to replace the original main drive. Installed Leopard on it, choosing the TimeMachine backup restore option. Soon realized it didn't use the backup versions of the apps, though, as I was getting the same problems as in the title of this thread... plus, a bunch of alerts about installer problems, which seemed to boil down to something like the installer media is damaged, installer can't verify the contents of updates, and that I should install from another copy, or even contact the manufacturer or something... I figured maybe the TM backup had managed to mess that up, too.

    So I erased & reinstalled Leopard (familiar procedure by now), this time starting with the OSX updates. But, now I got a report that the Combo update can't be installed, I think it was about "can't verify contents" again. The only button on offer was restart, though. So that's what I did, figuring I'll try the updates again as I was used to repeating them by now, anyway. But, shock horror... on top of the Apple logo I got the kernel panic alert! I shut down, booted from install DVD, verified the new drive, which was fine. But the backup drive (that Disk Utility had even claimed to have repaired) was all grayed out by now... I restarted but got the same kernel panic. Shut down, tried again, same thing.

    What is this? If the backups are corrupt, at least I thought the corruption would stay on the TM drive since I erased & reinstalled the new main drive. Can it be something outside the drives?!
    Even before buying the new drive I already knew I'd probably have to get DiskWarrior too, but figured I'd better get a drive first since the original one may be on its last legs anyway. But will even DiskWarrior be enough..?! Anyway, I won't touch the G5 before getting a DW.

    I'm now on my Ibook, which has its own problems, mainly the "official" bug of the G4 model - that is, an over-heating chip that causes sudden blackouts (which in turn must cause other damage..).
    Some kind of holy ghost has mostly kept at least one of these Macs working at a time. But yeah, it's about time I invest some money, instead of "it's about money I invest some time".....
     
  22. eyoungren macrumors P6

    eyoungren

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    #22
    I wonder if you might not have a hardware issue with something else in your Mac.

    I had the same issue you had at one point on my QS (combo update can't verify contents). My problem was the dual CPU I was using at the time, so I pulled the internal drive, put it in a USB case and did the updates from a different Mac.
     
  23. Lud DiLettante, Jan 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016

    Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #23
    Well... too many questions, too little time. I'll just skip them for now and give a short update...

    I wonder how I managed to forget about trying safe mode last time. (That's my brain, and eventually my computers and my brain begin to reflect each other, of course...)
    So, I tried booting in safe mode now. What happened was it got as far as the blue screen but then went black and restarted itself in normal mode..! What's that about..?

    Under the circumstances I'm just happy with a panic-free boot, though. Won't try anything more until I get DiskWarrior, probably.
     
  24. Lud DiLettante thread starter macrumors regular

    Lud DiLettante

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    #24
    Thanks E for all your help so far.
    I've been in limbo with this puzzle for a while but have enough non-computer stuff going on. Also got a bit stuck with what to do next ever since the possibility of hardware issues... I realize I still should get DiskWarrior though.

    But as for the G5, aren't CPU issues usually something serious, even terminal for the entire computer..? Are there specific concerns about a dual CPU? Was updating the only problem your dual CPU had?

    I also read on the X Lab that a "corrupted Time Machine backup disk or backing up a corrupted disk or corrupted files with Time Machine" can cause kernel panics. As my TM disk repeatedly seemed to need repairs I suppose I should've turned TM off since I wasn't doing anything that needed backup anymore, anyway. (I said "seemed" because by now I don't put much trust in anything the Disk Utility says...)
    Should DiskWarrior be able to repair a TM disk too, or is it too much to expect if it's been backing up an already corrupted disk..?
     
  25. eyoungren macrumors P6

    eyoungren

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    #25
    A logicboard failure can manifest in many ways. I've had LB failures that allow continued boots but the Mac will randomly freeze. I've also had LB failures that resulted in no activity at all.

    One G5 I had was this way. I replaced the entire logicboard/CPU as one unit ($65 at the time) so I've never been certain if it was the CPU or the logicboard

    The issues I had with my old CPU was due to heat. It was a third party processor that had a badly planed heat sink and was overclocking 1.2GHZ CPUs to 1.73/1.8Ghz. It drew more power and created more heat and that combined with lots of stuff crammed into my case resulted in poor cooling, so I got lots of issues.

    That CPU got bought by another member here who replaned the heat sink and put it in a Mac that has less hardware.

    The CPU I have now is a dual Sonnet which is orders of magnitude better in quality and uses 1.42Ghz CPUs overclocked to 1.8Ghz. So, there is considerably less heat and it's handled better. And it draws less power. My internal heat issues have also long been solved. I know where and how to position stuff now. There also a giant hole knocked in the bottom of my case that I put a 120mm fan over. So, I've got two 120mm case fans drawing heat out instead of one.

    Other than some of my PCI card issues I'm not having problems.

    DW should be able to repair corrupted directorys on any hard drive or SSD, external or otherwise. That's what it does.
     

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