Air vs Pro? (Indecisive College Student)

[MacBoook160]

You know, I value this site a lot - the help I've gotten here, just browsing through threads, let alone when I've asked a question, has been patient and immensely informative - but one thing I don't understand, because I do go through different threads, is why one choice of product has to be "bad" for another to be good? I have a 2011 MBP, which has seen better days but is a fantastic back-up device. I recently bought an MBA which is portable and powerful, and I know I'll probably have a rMB at some point down the line. They are each great machines. With difference strengths and drawbacks. I can easily see why someone might prefer one over the other, and I could make a good case for any of them to be one's laptop of choice. So why does the recommendation to go with an MBP mean that the MBA is an "obsolete" piece of crap for idiots? Even though I decided for a few reasons that the rMB wasn't right for me at this juncture, I sure think it's a fantastic machine with some advantages over what I picked out.

There is no perfect Mac laptop - IMO - but boy, they pretty darn good. Whatever you end up with, you'll enjoy it, it will provide value to you and I wish you every success as you're using it.


OK. I clearly need coffee!

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

One question: does weight matter at all? That's part of the decision between Air and Pro, in my opinion.

Good question. I think the MBA is too light. For me. But then, I like the 2008-2010 unibody 17", too.

There are many here who will tell you that 4gb will be enough for your needs, and as many as who will say that you must get 8gb, and I'm definitely NOT getting in the middle of that!

4 GB is not enough. Go for 8 GB.

That said, I would recommend that you consider a refurbished 2013 MBP. Single-core CPU speed is nearly the same as a recent model. e.g. (no affiliation and I've never bought from macofalltrades, it just came up on Google

http://www.macofalltrades.com/MacBook-Pro-15-inch-R-2-4GHz-QCi7-Early-2013-p/mbp-15-24-e13r.htm

2013 is when they started having more/more affordable, good-performing flash-SSD. Definitely go for SSD; that will make more difference in your everyday performance than CPU/GPU.

 

[motrek]

Good question. I think the MBA is too light. For me. But then, I like the 2008-2010 unibody 17", too.



4 GB is not enough. Go for 8 GB.

That said, I would recommend that you consider a refurbished 2013 MBP. Single-core CPU speed is nearly the same as a recent model. e.g. (no affiliation and I've never bought from macofalltrades, it just came up on Google

http://www.macofalltrades.com/MacBook-Pro-15-inch-R-2-4GHz-QCi7-Early-2013-p/mbp-15-24-e13r.htm

2013 is when they started having more/more affordable, good-performing flash-SSD. Definitely go for SSD; that will make more difference in your everyday performance than CPU/GPU.

4GB is not enough for what?

And of course he's going to "go for SSD" ... how can you buy a MBA or rMBP that doesn't have an SSD?

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

4GB is not enough for what?

Not enough to run Yosemite, the usual Microsoft apps, Firefox, Safari, and/or Chrome with 200 tabs open, and, an app of your choice to get Real (TM) work done.

And of course he's going to "go for SSD" ... how can you buy a MBA or rMBP that doesn't have an SSD?

You can buy a good used MBP without an SSD. Or, a 2013 rMBP with SSD. If you were considering buying a used system, which is what I was recommending that the student consider.

 

[ixxx69]

Not enough to run Yosemite, the usual Microsoft apps, Firefox, Safari, and/or Chrome with 200 tabs open, and, an app of your choice to get Real (TM) work done.

You can buy a good used rMBP without an SSD. If you were considering buying a used system, which is what I was recommending that the student consider.

200 tabs open? what does that have to do with this thread? And exactly where can you find this mythical rMBP without an SSD? Maybe you should refrain from posting advice on a subject that you don't appear to have knowledge of.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

200 tabs open? what does that have to do with this thread? And exactly where can you find this mythical rMBP without an SSD? Maybe you should refrain from posting advice on a subject that you don't appear to have knowledge of.

Error corrected. I thoughtlessly modified my original post and made a mistake while doing so.

Also, it has often been observed that irony is often misunderstood on the internet.

But, that is not to the point either. Let me spell it out for you very clearly, with no irony or hidden humor, since this is a very serious subject for you. I have experience running Yosemite on a 4 GB machine, and, 4 GB isn't enough memory to run Yosemite and do a full workload of other stuff at the same time. If the student is planning to run only one program at a time, 4 GB will probably be enough. I seldom operate with only one major app running, and neither do most of the people I work with. At least part of the time, people will be running at least one app, and, have a memory-consuming browser session going, too. That is why I recommend 8 GB.

Clear?

 

[ixxx69]

Error corrected. I thoughtlessly modified my original post and made a mistake while doing so.

Also, it has often been observed that irony is often misunderstood on the internet.

But, that is not to the point either. Let me spell it out for you very clearly, with no irony or hidden humor, since this is a very serious subject for you. I have experience running Yosemite on a 4 GB machine, and, 4 GB isn't enough memory to run Yosemite and do a full workload of other stuff at the same time. If the student is planning to run only one program at a time, 4 GB will probably be enough. I seldom operate with only one major app running, and neither do most of the people I work with. At least part of the time, people will be running at least one app, and, have a memory-consuming browser session going, too. That is why I recommend 8 GB.

Clear?

Sorry you were embarrassed by your string of errors, but no reason to take it out on me.

You're the one suggesting a MBA is not heavy enough. You're the one suggesting 4 GB is not enough for trivially basic usage on a MBP/MBA when clearly, as has been demonstrated ad nauseam, that's not the case. You're the one insisting, even after the error was pointed out to you, that there was a rMBP without an SSD.

FTR, I typically recommend 8GB as well, but I understand there's a multitude of factors, and that 4 GB can work great for basic usage.

 

[Boyd01]

Don't know about Yosemite, but 4gb worked very well for me under Lion on my 2011 MBA. If you remember… way back in 2011, 4GB was the maximum available on the MBA. I was running software like Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro and other big apps and often had a browser, photoshop, Excel, etc open at the same time.

The SSD is really fast on the MBA. So I'm sure lots of swapping was going on but I was never aware of it. The SSDs are getting faster and faster. My 2013 MBA clocks at over 700MBytes/sec. I think the SSD on the 2015 13" MBA is around 1GB/sec.

But maybe Apple has messed this all up under Yosemite. I don't fix what isn't broken, so my MBA is still on 10.8 and my Mini is on 10.9.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

Sorry you were embarrassed by your string of errors, but no reason to take it out on me.

You're the one suggesting a MBA is not heavy enough.

LOL.

Just so you know, I don't like flimsy stuff that bends easily, and, I have no problem carrying any model of MBP that has ever been made. YMMV.

You're the one suggesting 4 GB is not enough for trivially basic usage on a MBP/MBA when clearly, as has been demonstrated ad nauseam, that's not the case.

4 GB is great for trivially basic usage. And even basic usage. Where did I suggest otherwise? I still do suggest that it is not enough for typical demanding usage today.

You're the one insisting, even after the error was pointed out to you, that there was a rMBP without an SSD.

I am?!?!

FTR, I typically recommend 8GB as well, but I understand there's a multitude of factors, and that 4 GB can work great for basic usage.

I agree with with you that 4 GB is fine for basic usage.

 

[HoiPiet]

The 4 versus 8 is a hot topic around here. There has been plenty of great information, but lots of testy back and forth. The indecisive college student could look at threads that aren't old at all for info.

Is the air flimsy? Does it have much flex? I'd think as long as its been in production there'd be some info on how well it holds up.

The new MB looks fragile to me. I admit that might be my prejudice and ignorance. Could it go in a messenger bag with other stuff?

 

[motrek]

... Just so you know, I don't like flimsy stuff that bends easily, and, I have no problem carrying any model of MBP that has ever been made. YMMV.

What makes you think the MBA is any more flimsy than a thicker Mac laptop?

I admit that instinctively it seems like it would be more flimsy, because a thin sheet of something is more flimsy than a thicker sheet of the same material. But laptops aren't just uniform blocks of one single material so this instinctive understanding doesn't apply.

Hopefully your idea that the MBA bends easily is based on something more substantial than irrelevant instinct? Or no?

4 GB is great for trivially basic usage. And even basic usage. Where did I suggest otherwise? I still do suggest that it is not enough for typical demanding usage today.

You must realize that comments like these are insulting, right? You're saying that everybody who has less than 8GB of RAM is only doing "basic usage" with their computers?

I use my computers for scientific computing, AI research, and software development. At any given time I'm running XCode, a browser with 10-20 tabs, often Photoshop, and 6-7 other less intensive apps (Terminal, Messages, Mail, Skype, iTunes, Spotify, etc.).

This all works fine with 4GB of RAM. My memory pressure is green. I guess scientific computing and software development are "basic usage"?

Maybe you can bless us computer n00bs with a description of some of the "advanced usage" things you do with your computer that can't be done with only 4GB of RAM?

 

[MacBoook160]

Question here that is interrupting the conversation: doesn't better wifi/internet make those 4gb work more efficiently? I used to work on a T1 line (long time ago) and the same laptop on that versus a home dial up...big difference, but maybe I'm making that up.

 

[motrek]

Question here that is interrupting the conversation: doesn't better wifi/internet make those 4gb work more efficiently? I used to work on a T1 line (long time ago) and the same laptop on that versus a home dial up...big difference, but maybe I'm making that up.

Depends on where your bottleneck is. If there's a situation where you're waiting on your computer, then some component or aspect of the computer is slowing you down.

If you have a slow internet connection, then chances are you will often be waiting on that rather than any other part of your computer. (Assuming you're like most people and use the internet a lot.)

If you have too little RAM, then the computer will have to constantly shuttle data between RAM and the SSD and that could be what you're waiting on.

Sometimes whatever software you're using will have to do a lot of computation, and your CPU will be the bottleneck.

So it's not that a fast internet connection was interacting with your RAM somehow, it was that your dial-up connection at home was a bottleneck.

 

[MacBoook160]

Thanks, motrek. I've often wondered whether part of that 4gb/8gb conversation/argument - assuming, as you say, that the Internet is a big part of most folks' usage - implicitly has something to do with the quality of the connection.

 

[Dennison]

With my 6-yr old Dell laptop slowly dying, I really want to replace it with an Apple laptop!

Hooray! Time to kick that Dell to the curb. If only it was Michael Dell himself!

Air or the Pro.

This is where my post is going to seem rather unhelpful if you're set on just those two choices. (But I sure hope for the opposite!) I faced this question back in the Spring myself.

I will be going into my second year of College.

Well perfect! I've been going to community college this year, and I'm just about to move to go to another city to pursue a degree.

Back before March, I was thinking about getting a MacBook. I really liked my friend's Air, because it was incredibly light and low profile, which makes a huge difference in the book bag. It was just so cool to use, too. The only thing I didn't like was the low-resolution screen. It felt dated and made it harder to read text, because I'm so used to reading on Retina displays like on my iPhone and iPad. I was really wishing they'd pack in a Retina resolution screen into the Air, but I guessed they couldn't do it because of battery life limits.

So I went back to considering a Pro. Figured it would be a large improvement because of the power, Retina screen and features. My issues with it were the higher price, large profile and heft. It's actually a lot thicker than the Air and weight makes a big difference if you're going to take this wherever you go. I hadn't replaced my old and broken MacBook (white plastic, 2006) for so long because I got by with my Mac mini setup and didn't need to travel with a Mac. This is also because there is an element of laptops that always bothered me and I absolutely hate, which are the fans and vents.

So I figured I'd wait on it a little longer, as I could definitely get by with my iPad. Then I watched one of Apple's events back in March, because I was still curious about the Watch. During this event however, they made one really big announcement that I don't think a lot of people were expecting: A brand new line of MacBooks. Boom. Retina display. Even lower, lighter and thinner profile. All day battery life. Exciting new technologies. And... it's fanless. It doesn't expel heat onto your legs when you use it. It actually operates in silence. I was going nuts, haha.

But but but... it has no ports. It has a stupid shallow keyboard. It's underpowered. It can't run apps. It's got a tiny screen. It's got a terrible webcam.

Before I got one, I went to the Apple store to test them out in April. I was aware of all of these things. I was concerned about all of these things. So I stress-tested several of the new MacBook models. Each test, I unplugged the MacBook to get an idea of the battery performance, then went ahead and opened a ton of apps. I loaded up and played multiple tabs of YouTube videos in 4K, opened multiple tabs of my favorite websites that have lots of images (this is all in Safari, not Chrome), opened the Photos app (fullscreen in a separate desktop) to flip through hi-res images, and even opened iMovie to edit a short video, all with multiple windows and desktops, all at the same time, on one machine.

It exceeded all of my expectations. From everything I heard online, it sounded like this thing couldn't even edit movies. Or let alone watch high definition YouTube videos. It could do it all, and more than I even thought it could.

The biggest hit it took was on battery and some UI slugging, but I expected that. After editing and exporting a 2 minute 1080p video, while doing all of the tasks I mentioned above, I remember only a 15-20% battery drop from 100%. The export only took about a minute or two as well. It's insane, and there's no way anyone would watch multiple 4K videos, listen to music and edit video at the same time.

I have full confidence that you can do absolutely everything you listed here (and especially most of them at the same time):

The main stuff I use my laptop for is:
Web Browsing (I will have at most 7-10ish tabs while doing just for school but for like the other 80% of the time I would have 2 or 3 open with one of them being YouTube)
Netflix, YouTube, Watching Movies
Social Media (Facebook, Twitter etc.)
Word/Excel (basically writing papers and creating spreadsheets)
Mail

Using Windows 10 via Bootcamp
Possibly emulating DS games (???)

At most, I would have like 4 basic applications open (such as Word, Browser with like 3 tabs open, IMessage and I guess maybe something else?)

The last two I'm unaware of, because I don't use BootCamp, nor have I emulated Nintendo DS games. I've emulated NES games on Nestopia though.

This is what MacRumors looks like, open next to a Pages document. It's fairly easy to do research projects and browse the web at the same time side-by-side, so screen size is just not an issue. This is actually set to the Default resolution setting, so it gets a lot better than this if you go into settings and switch on More Space. What I've found is it's just easier to full screen apps and switch between them by using three-fingers to swipe back and forth. It's awesome.

This image illustrates a normal workload for me. I usually keep most of this stuff open, from Reminders, iTunes, Twitter, my email, Pages for when I'm writing notes or papers, and I currently have 29 tabs open on Safari spread out in different windows (organized for different tasks) in separate desktops right now. Yeah, I counted.

On power, apps, and the display size, the naysayers are just wrong about the new MacBook. As for the other criticisms:

- The keyboard is up to personal preference, but I love it now, and I'd say it takes some good use to get used to it. People forget that the keys are way larger than the ones on the Air or Pro models, so I've found it's actually easier to type. The individual LEDs also make it look way sharper.
- The USB-C port (I really only use it for charging) is really all you're going to need at this point. To include all of the images that I've uploaded here, I used AirDrop (which I love) to throw these photos from my iPhone onto my MacBook. Super easy and impressively fast. iCloud really takes care of the rest (documents, backups, etc.)
- The webcam is pretty bad for 2015. I understand the display panel is so crazy thin that they couldn't fit a 720p camera in here, but it's very noticeable how dated the camera is if you open Photo Booth. When I Skype with friends (which I rarely do), I've actually asked how the quality was on their end. Most said it looked good. Ironically at another point in time, I actually got a compliment from somebody that didn't know it was 480p. They said, "Your webcam looks really good, what kind is it? It looks like you're on LIVE TV." Yeah that made me laugh. Maybe Apple is pulling some tricks here to get it to show up better.

I also want this laptop to last me at least 4 years, with it hopefully not crashing every other hour after 3 years or so like my Dell laptop.

With a MacBook, you're going to have a lot less problems. Most say Macs, depending on the model, last a good five years depending how hard you drive them. Some last even longer. At that point most people think about upgrading anyway. There are some who argue that the longevity of Mac computers ends up costing you less money in the long run, and I think they're right. Also consider that you're getting free OS software updates from Apple every single year. Yippee! Just them giving you thanks for switching to a superior OS.

With my needs and expectations, would 4 gb of Ram be sufficient? Or would 8 be better? I'm on a budget as a college student and although I could stretch for the 8 gb, I don't want to unless I absolutely must. I already know I want 256gb of memory, with my Dell PC I'm only using 60gb out of 500gb. This gives me room to make a Windows 10 partition.

Oh man dude. Perfect again! The base model new MacBook has 8GB of RAM and 256GB of flash storage. And yes, flash storage, so that means it's going to be lightning fast.

I know your options are to go with a Pro or an Air, but please do consider the new MacBook. It's become my favorite computer. And because of the amazing new design elements and technologies that I didn't even mention here (a huge click-anywhere multi-touch track pad with Force Touch features, all-metal design so there's no black antenna backing, terraced battery enclosure, really loud and awesome front speakers, gold/silver/space gray color options), this has become the best computer I've ever used.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

What makes you think the MBA is any more flimsy than a thicker Mac laptop?

I don't believe that I said that the MBA is flimsy. Not that being flimsy is necessarily bad, either-- as long as you treat things tenderly. Back in the day, one of my favorite computer models was the GRiD 1530 "laptop" (before Tandy bought Grid).

You must realize that comments like these are insulting, right? You're saying that everybody who has less than 8GB of RAM is only doing "basic usage" with their computers?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Indecisive College Student might want to consider a good used MBP rather than a new Air. I think the MBP would fit his requirements better. Which, among other things, included a desire to run Windows. Now, he did say Bootcamp, but, if he wants to run Windows in a VM, he will want 8 GB for sure.

While we are on the subject of you, though -- are you running on Yosemite? Because (no, I haven't studied this scientifically), under Yosemite, memory pressure/performance does seem worse. Test case: Chrome with lots of tabs open.

EDIT: Dennison makes a great case for the new Macbook. I would go nuts with the port setup myself, but, it could work for you.

 

[motrek]

I don't believe that I said that the MBA is flimsy. Not that being flimsy is necessarily bad, either-- as long as you treat things tenderly. Back in the day, one of my favorite computer models was the GRiD 1530 "laptop" (before Tandy bought Grid).

Okay, so somebody's talking about the MBA and your reply is "I don't like flimsy stuff that bends easily." And we're supposed to think that these comments are unrelated? If you weren't talking about the MBA, then pray tell, what is this flimsy thing that you were thinking of when you wrote this unrelated sentence?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Indecisive College Student might want to consider a good used MBP rather than a new Air. I think the MBP would fit his requirements better.
...

Nonsense. Here's another direct quote of you, only a few posts back, "4 GB is great for trivially basic usage. And even basic usage." Implying that anything beyond basic usage would require more than 4GB RAM.

While we are on the subject of you, though -- are you running on Yosemite? Because (no, I haven't studied this scientifically), under Yosemite, memory pressure/performance does seem worse. Test case: Chrome with lots of tabs open.
...

I used Chrome as my primary browser for years, up until a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago it started giving me memory trouble and I switched to Safari. I assume a change was made to Chrome that made it use more memory. I don't see what any of this has to do with Yosemite.

 

[ron7624]

With my old laptop being around 7ish pounds, both the Air and Pro feel unbelievably light and the one pound difference between them is negligible to me. I was in fact actually looking at the refurbrished section lately, as of now they're apparently out of 8gb ram models (hence my concern of 4gb vs 8gb ram)

Go for 8 gigs at the least - unless you want to see the beachball spinning alot. With multiple tabs open and other app running the 8 gb option is your best bet. I have 8gb in my early 2015 MBA and love it. Watching netflix with that screen is very acceptable to me.

 

[MacBoook160]

Great "review," Dennison. And congratulations on the pursuit of your degree.

 

[iceman42]

i would get a mba 13 inch with 4 gb of ram or with 8gb of ram.if you want to save some money try the apple refurbished store they have new 2015 mba for less than you pay for if you bought it new .

 

[Harthag]

Haven't seen OP post anything recently, did you decide? If not, Best Buy has sale prices on macs, you can get the base Air for $899. FTW. I am in the middle of a move and have a 10% off coupon. I already have a 2015 retina MBP 13" that I love but may just pull the trigger and get an Air myself, for $810 pre-tax it's a steal. 4gb RAM and all

There's no wrong decision. The retina screen however makes things much easier on the eyes, very crisp and sharp. I run Windows 10 natively via Bootcamp and it scales just fine for the most part, and overall W10 runs great on these new macs- better than PC laptops in my experience once you get the latest Bootcamp drivers. You may encounter some scaling issues within Windows here or there (I do, but not related to this thread) whereas you won't have any issue at all with the Air. Which is the reason I am considering getting one for when I really don't want to deal with scaling issues.

 

[jterp7]

If i had the choice when i bought my 13 mba (mid 11), i'd probably take the 13 rmbp. The weight if definitely worth it for the screen. If weight size matters then get the macbook.

 

[ctg7w6]

I am honestly so sick of this 4 GB vs 8 GB crap. Virtually no one who uses a Mac will need 8. They are not "power users," many are inept with computers and simply browse the internet and write in a word document. Futureproof with 8 GB? Why??? These people are still not going to be power users 5 years from now.

I have a MacBook Air with 4 GB. I program, run VMs, run Windows in dual-boot, etc. I don't do photoshop or movie editing, which would benefit from 8 GB. I don't play games because it is a Mac and my graphics card is the ultimate inhibitor, not the amount of RAM.

So, the answer should almost always be: If you aren't image or movie editing, get 4 GB of RAM. You are not a "power user" because you have 50 tabs open at once.... You are just a disorganized/messy individual, you don't need more RAM, you need to learn organizational skills.

So, please, people, quit earning Apple a bunch of money for their overpriced RAM that most people will not need at this point in time. The futureproofing argument doesn't work. It will be a few years before the OS becomes so bloated and inefficient that 4 GB is limiting, and these common people will not suddenly become power users.

I'm so sick of "I'm a college student that sits around on Facebook and writes the occasional low quality essay, har har, I think I need 8 GB of RAM." No, you don't. You're not a power user because you have your email open, a word document, and facebook. You are just a typical Apple user.

 

[jterp7]

Haven't seen OP post anything recently, did you decide? If not, Best Buy has sale prices on macs, you can get the base Air for $899. FTW. I am in the middle of a move and have a 10% off coupon. I already have a 2015 retina MBP 13" that I love but may just pull the trigger and get an Air myself, for $810 pre-tax it's a steal. 4gb RAM and all

There's no wrong decision. The retina screen however makes things much easier on the eyes, very crisp and sharp. I run Windows 10 natively via Bootcamp and it scales just fine for the most part, and overall W10 runs great on these new macs- better than PC laptops in my experience once you get the latest Bootcamp drivers. You may encounter some scaling issues within Windows here or there (I do, but not related to this thread) whereas you won't have any issue at all with the Air. Which is the reason I am considering getting one for when I really don't want to deal with scaling issues.

its definitely worth the extra $180 for the retina screen if you're looking at the air, but for max lightness the 12" @ $1080 with the 10% isn't bad either. Make sure you like the keyboard on the macbook though lol, its definitely a big change.