Alder Lake discussion

[maflynn]

Looks like Intel took the wraps off their 12th gen processor, and it looks really interesting. I do think this may give AMD run for its money.

Intel Architecture Day 2021: Alder Lake, Golden Cove, and Gracemont Detailed
Intel Alder Lake CPUs: Everything we know about the new hybrid chips
Intel Architecture Day 2021: Alder Lake Chips, Golden Cove and Gracemont Cores

For me, its brings up a bit of a quandary, I've been wanting to rebuild my desktop, there are things I'm really pleased with the build but other things that I'd like to change.

One option is to switch back to intel. The i5-11600k can be found for around 200 bucks, compared to AMD 5600x which is in the 300+ dollar range. Performance from what I researched is nearly the same for most tasks. The downside of the i5, though is 120 TDP vs. 65 of the 5600x.

But do I want to spend money on a new motherboard and cpu as we enter Q3 of 2021 and Alder lake purportedly being released in 2021 - of course that may not mean CPUs for enthusiast but rather OEMs and prebuilt. Plus the cost of the cpu and motherboard will be set to the highest amount where the i5 11600k is priced aggressively.

 

[velocityg4]

Intel's timeline for die shrinks. Plus upcoming usage of TSMC for some fabbing. Along with agressive architecture improvements. I think they will catch back up to and pass the competition.

AMD mainly got ahead because TSMC got way ahead. AMD didn't really surpass Intel until they got on a much smaller FAB process. Which leads me to believe that Intel has an overall better CPU design. That the actual Fab process is what has held them back.

How well the big and little cores will pan out. Will depend on how well MS handles it in Windows 11.

It's certainly exciting to see Intel making a big push again. But I just upgraded to Rocket Lake. So, I probably won't be considering a new computer for quite a while. I'd have gone with Ryzen 5000 series. But prices were/are insane compared to similar mid range Intel offerings.

Pat Gelsinger is looking more and more like the CEO Intel has needed to get back on track.

Edit: As Alder Lake is so close. I'd certainly wait for it now. If you can get one. I bet those'll be snapped up quicker than you can blink. Maybe camp out at Microcenter.

 

[JMacHack]

It’s an interesting development for sure. I may pick up an i5 for a pc build (the motherboards for Intel have more features that I like). I’m interested to see how the big.little cores turn out, since Atom cpus never had the best reputation, but all they have to do is offload light workloads so who knows.

Iirc Intel is using tsmc for their dgpus, not Alder Lake. It’s on “Intel 7” which is their rebranded 10nm node.

 

[LeeW]

Pat Gelsinger is looking more and more like the CEO Intel has needed to get back on track.

This I think. Not doubted intel's ability to do more and better, I have always thought the reason they haven't lay's firmly at the feet of the management.

Pat appears to be pushing the focus back to the product before the profit.

 

[I7guy]

It's been reported that Windows 11 will support the architecture of Alder Lake, but confirmed about Windows 10.

Is there a compatibility mode for Alder Lake so that previous windows versions as well as other linux distributions will be able to run on Alder Lake without modification? I realize the questions may be rhetorical.

 

[velocityg4]

It's been reported that Windows 11 will support the architecture of Alder Lake, but confirmed about Windows 10.

Is there a compatibility mode for Alder Lake so that previous windows versions as well as other linux distributions will be able to run on Alder Lake without modification? I realize the questions may be rhetorical.

I think they’ll work. But the OS won’t know how to optimize tasks. I’d expected they’re already working on it in Linux. But MS may just let it slide on 10 as 11 will already be out.

Most importantly. Will modern Amiga and Be OS distros support it. 🙏

 

[maflynn]

(the motherboards for Intel have more features that I like)

Same but for my needs, and budget I'm not sure I'm willing to pay a premium. Even now, the i5 10600k + z490 mobo makes more sense for my wallet then the i5-11600k + z590.

 

[velocityg4]

Same but for my needs, and budget I'm not sure I'm willing to pay a premium. Even now, the i5 10600k + z490 mobo makes more sense for my wallet then the i5-11600k + z590.

Just remember. Comet Lake is built off the same architecture going all the way back the Skylake. Rocket Lake is a new architecture with a much better IPC. Plus you get PCIe 4.0.

I got mine through Microcenter. Excellent CPU+Motherboard combo deals.

I haven't looked at current prices. But if they aren't too different. I'd go with the Rocket Lake chip. Whenever I'm waffling between two pieces of tech and the price difference is minor. I force myself to spend the extra money now. There's been too many times I went a step lower. Then was always nagged by what if.

You'll never be nagged by that what if. If you get the better of the two. Once it's up and running and you're happy. In a week or two you'll forget about the price.

Benjamin Franklin put it best, "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."

 

[maflynn]

Rocket Lake is a new architecture with a much better IPC.

No question so that's why I'm hoping to see better temps and lower power consumption.

Benjamin Franklin put it best, "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."

No question but 10th and 11th gen processors are not poor quality. They have advantages and disadvantages and for my needs, I'm not really sure I'm willing to pay a premium - at least right now. I wait longer and the prices will descend to be sure.

 

[velocityg4]

No question so that's why I'm hoping to see better temps and lower power consumption.


No question but 10th and 11th gen processors are not poor quality. They have advantages and disadvantages and for my needs, I'm not really sure I'm willing to pay a premium - at least right now. I wait longer and the prices will descend to be sure.

While they aren't poor quality. I just paraphrase it for myself as " The bitterness of inferior specs remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." Which I'm sure he'd say if he was born three hundred years later.😉

I don't OC. But I haven't had any temp or fan noise issues using a Scyther Mugen 5 Cooler, Corsair 4000D case and three Arctic F12 PWM case fans.

 

[jdb8167]

Looks like Intel took the wraps off their 12th gen processor, and it looks really interesting. I do think this may give AMD run for its money.

Intel Architecture Day 2021: Alder Lake, Golden Cove, and Gracemont Detailed
Intel Alder Lake CPUs: Everything we know about the new hybrid chips
Intel Architecture Day 2021: Alder Lake Chips, Golden Cove and Gracemont Cores

For me, its brings up a bit of a quandary, I've been wanting to rebuild my desktop, there are things I'm really pleased with the build but other things that I'd like to change.

One option is to switch back to intel. The i5-11600k can be found for around 200 bucks, compared to AMD 5600x which is in the 300+ dollar range. Performance from what I researched is nearly the same for most tasks. The downside of the i5, though is 120 TDP vs. 65 of the 5600x.

But do I want to spend money on a new motherboard and cpu as we enter Q3 of 2021 and Alder lake purportedly being released in 2021 - of course that may not mean CPUs for enthusiast but rather OEMs and prebuilt. Plus the cost of the cpu and motherboard will be set to the highest amount where the i5 11600k is priced aggressively.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/intel-alder-lake-benchmark-hybrid-model-into-question/

Not guaranteed accurate but if true, not so great for Intel. Also not tested on Windows 11 with their new hybrid thread schedular.

 

[crazy dave]

This seems … non-optimal:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1449040911044915201

If I’m reading this right (and I may not be) there is the potential for a lot screwed up things to happen like say a Monte Carlo simulation run coming out differently depending on what core, P vs E, it gets run on despite having the same number seed or expected hash table entries differing between P and E cores. That’s not good. Maybe I’m wrong? Because that would be really bad.

 

[maflynn]

This seems … non-optimal:

This can't be right - I'm not disagreeing with you, but getting different results depending on the core you're running is something that could go bad very fast

Here's an enlargement of the tweet

And in many respects this sort of thing is why I chose to go with an 11th gen processor. I don't know if this is a thing or not, but I prefer to spend a premium (and when this comes out it will be expensive) and being on the bleeding edge

 

[crazy dave]

This can't be right - I'm not disagreeing with you, but getting different results depending on the core you're running is something that could go bad very fast

Here's an enlargement of the tweet
View attachment 1867247

And in many respects this sort of thing is why I chose to go with an 11th gen processor. I don't know if this is a thing or not, but I prefer to spend a premium (and when this comes out it will be expensive) and being on the bleeding edge

Now that I’m more awake I’ve figured out that I’m sort of right and sort of wrong: if you manually set the seed things should be okay (I mean that should work between processors not just different cores). But if you’re using aspects of the cpuid to create the seed or hash function then that could vary between P and E cores more so than between two P cores and in ways you might not be expecting. How much that matters can depend on your circumstances but I’m sure that I could construct various ways that could make things go wrong - hence the warning from Intel to be careful. Not quite as bad as what I was initially thinking (which was unreasonable) but still not great.

 

[crazy dave]

Now that I’m more awake I’ve figured out that I’m sort of right and sort of wrong: if you manually set the seed things should be okay (I mean that should work between processors not just different cores). But if you’re using aspects of the cpuid to create the seed or hash function then that could vary between P and E cores more so than between two P cores and in ways you might not be expecting. How much that matters can depend on your circumstances but I’m sure that I could construct various ways that could make things go wrong - hence the warning from Intel to be careful. Not quite as bad as what I was initially thinking (which was unreasonable) but still not great.

In another thread @Tagbert linked to a news article about the Intel Dev manual for Alder Lake warning against problems with certain DRM programs (especially for older games which might not get patched). It’s possible these two issues are linked:

Intel's Alder Lake CPUs May Not Work With Older Games

Gamers beware

www.tomshardware.com

If I had to guess what’s happening, the DRM stops working because the P and E cores display different data in ways that previously were relied on to be the same across all cores in the CPU. So the DRM will conclude that it is not being run on the right processor and activate its security measures despite being on the correct computer. I have to admit, I had not considered this ramification of the CPUID issue (if the two are in fact linked, but it makes sense to me that they would be).

 

[maflynn]

the DRM stops working because the P and E cores display different data in ways

My concern is not just DRM, but just regular run of the mill applications that might of used the CPUID in totally unrelated ways, and on Alder lake cause weird or hard to pin down issues. Time will tell, and I'm sure this is but the beginning of information of what changed and how it will effect us

 

[crazy dave]

My concern is not just DRM, but just regular run of the mill applications that might of used the CPUID in totally unrelated ways, and on Alder lake cause weird or hard to pin down issues. Time will tell, and I'm sure this is but the beginning of information of what changed and how it will effect us

Yeah gen 1 products almost always have … quirks like that. 😬 When it’s released and reviewed, I guess we’ll see from a performance/energy/die area perspective if it was worth the teething issues.

 

[mi7chy]

Outside of long always on battery life don't see what the obsession is with E-cores is. Intel 11th gen Tiger Lake is great as is with industry leading Xe iGPU and Quick Sync video encoder/decoder. Only thing that's keeping it from being perfect is not outsourcing to TSMC/Samsung 5nm or upcoming 3nm. Intel should priority 5nm/3nm Tiger Lake refresh 1st then Alder Lake 2nd.

 

[crazy dave]

Outside of long always on battery life don't see what the obsession is with E-cores is.

Beyond the aforementioned battery life savings, for smaller core count chips, E-cores can also keep the P-cores clear of light housekeeping threads so they’re more available for real work.

But for Intel? One reason people have cited for the push into E-cores is that Intel P-cores have worse power per area than their AMD counterparts, potentially still true even when manufacturing differences are normalized. Thus adding smaller, more efficient cores will improve power per area and thus performance per power per area. Worth it? I dunno. We’ll find out.

Longer term, there are rumors that AMD will add E-cores for Zen 5. But I’m not sure how much stock to put into those.

Intel 11th gen Tiger Lake is great as is with industry leading Xe iGPU and Quick Sync video encoder/decoder. Only thing that's keeping it from being perfect is not outsourcing to TSMC/Samsung 5nm or upcoming 3nm. Intel should priority 5nm/3nm Tiger Lake refresh 1st then Alder Lake 2nd.

Tiger Lake was a good step in the right direction, but Alder Lake P-cores are a different uarch - quite substantially so apparently. Similar to the X1 and firestorm cores, they’re going wider. And I’d be surprised if Intel didn’t sell P-core only models or if some OEMs didn’t leave them turned off by default.

[Edit: Also I’m not sure if Samsung’s 5nm is any better than Intel’s 10nm. From what I’ve read, approximately the relationship is Intel 10 ~= TSMC 7nm(+) ~= Samsung 5nm. It’s difficult to compare different manufacturing processes but that seems to be the generally agreed on relationship between the nodes. Supposedly Intel has done a deal with TSMC but I don’t think any information has been actually released.]

Next year though should be really interesting for CPUs: new Arm & Qualcomm cores, Zen 3 + v-cache, Zen 4, Raptor Lake, and the A16 … provided we don’t get more industry delays.

 

[jrichards1408]

Beyond the aforementioned battery life savings, for smaller core count chips, E-cores can also keep the P-cores clear of light housekeeping threads so they’re more available for real work.

But for Intel? One reason people have cited for the push into E-cores is that Intel P-cores have worse power per area than their AMD counterparts, potentially still true even when manufacturing differences are normalized. Thus adding smaller, more efficient cores will improve power per area and thus performance per power per area. Worth it? I dunno. We’ll find out.

Longer term, there are rumors that AMD will add E-cores for Zen 5. But I’m not sure how much stock to put into those.



Tiger Lake was a good step in the right direction, but Alder Lake P-cores are a different uarch - quite substantially so apparently. Similar to the X1 and firestorm cores, they’re going wider. And I’d be surprised if Intel didn’t sell P-core only models or if some OEMs didn’t leave them turned off by default.

[Edit: Also I’m not sure if Samsung’s 5nm is any better than Intel’s 10nm. From what I’ve read, approximately the relationship is Intel 10 ~= TSMC 7nm(+) ~= Samsung 5nm. It’s difficult to compare different manufacturing processes but that seems to be the generally agreed on relationship between the nodes. Supposedly Intel has done a deal with TSMC but I don’t think any information has been actually released.]

Next year though should be really interesting for CPUs: new Arm & Qualcomm cores, Zen 3 + v-cache, Zen 4, Raptor Lake, and the A16 … provided we don’t get more industry delays.

Still won't match the M1 Pro chips it seems?

 

[crazy dave]

Still won't match the M1 Pro chips it seems?

Dunno, likely depends on the metric. Raw performance? Probably and more. Performance per watt or per area? Probably not and probably not close.

 

[jrichards1408]

Dunno, likely depends on the metric. Raw performance? Probably and more. Performance per watt or per area? Probably not and probably not close.

Agree.

Let's see what happens

 

[maflynn]

Alder lake has landed and the reviews tend to be very positive. As a self admitted intel fan, I'm really happy to see them finally hit one out of the park. I checked on prices at Microcenter and right now its a bit too steep - especially given that I just upgraded to 11thgen. Plus I don't need the horse power of my existing 11700k, never mind plopping down a boatload of $$ for a i9-12900k.

I ball parked that I'd need to drop over a grand for a i7-12700k, motherboard and DDR5 ram plus a new cpu cooler and as I stated its overkill for my needs. What I'll probably do, is just buy a new Razer when they come out with an alder lake equipped laptop

 

[jrichards1408]

Alder lake has landed and the reviews tend to be very positive. As a self admitted intel fan, I'm really happy to see them finally hit one out of the park. I checked on prices at Microcenter and right now its a bit too steep - especially given that I just upgraded to 11thgen. Plus I don't need the horse power of my existing 11700k, never mind plopping down a boatload of $$ for a i9-12900k.

I ball parked that I'd need to drop over a grand for a i7-12700k, motherboard and DDR5 ram plus a new cpu cooler and as I stated its overkill for my needs. What I'll probably do, is just buy a new Razer when they come out with an alder lake equipped laptop

Let's see if it can go toe to toe with apples m1 Pro

 

[maflynn]

Let's see if it can go toe to toe with apples m1 Pro

Meh,
Somewhat different markets

Partially because right now what was released was the desktop versions, and also Windows runs a lot more apps then the mac does.

I'm not taking anything away from the M1 mac, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tempted but while the hardware is impressive, It doesn't run what I need or want.