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American Cars are not Worse (on average)!
- Thread starter carbonmotion
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Nice post and information, my wife went from a Ford to a Hyundai and I must admit the newer Hyundai's(2006) have really stepped it up a notch. Its been perfect. There is a big difference between the American makes these days and some of the Oriental makes. The American makes talk about quality,talk about MPG etc. The ASIAN makes dont have to talk about it because its in their product so no need for spin. When Gas went up they had nice economical fuel efficient cars you could buy today, the American companys didnt have much. Corporate America is to greedy for the short term $$$ to worry about things like the future, or being green or what have you while paying some fat cat CEO millions & millions for closing U.S. factories while the ASIANs are opening U.S. factories. GM/Ford loosing marketshare is their fault alone with shoddy products,shoddy design, and a overpaid ceo class of greedy bastards.
I have a brother in law who did some work for GM and he told me that they had issues on the production line and their solution wasnt to worry about it because the production would be over in 6 months so rather then fix it up front they would just let its customer phone centers deal with it through warranty repairs? I guess they think if you repeat quality and high gas milage enough times people will think its true.
i would advise against the term "oriental" - its considered outdated and derogatory toward asian people, akin to using the term "negro."
So whats the appropriate term for say Japanees and South Korean? I never heard oriental as being anything bad until your post. Even my ramen noodles have oriental flavor on them. I think your mistaking.
"Asian" is usually the preferred term unless you specifically identify the countries. I don't fully understand the thought behind "Oriental" being derogatory when used in reference to people or customs (use in describing objects like carpets and food is considered fine), but it has to do with a perception of Eurocentrism and images of colonialism and its usage in conjunction with stereotypes. "Oriental" in reference to people does not carry these same connotations in Europe.
i am not mistaken, it is right on your computer, in fact. from the apple dictionary:
"noun ( Oriental) dated, often offensive a person of Far Eastern descent.
DERIVATIVES orientalize |-?z| verb orientally adverb ORIGIN late Middle English : from Old French, or from Latin orientalis, from orient- (see orient ).
USAGE The term Oriental, denoting a person from the Far East, is regarded as offensive by many Asians, esp. Asian Americans. It has many associations with European imperialism in Asia. Therefore, it has an out-of-date feel and tends to be associated with a rather offensive stereotype of the people and their customs as inscrutable and exotic. Asian and more specific terms such as East Asian, Chinese, and Japanese are preferred."
tho i agree it may be just in america its considered to be negative.
"noun ( Oriental) dated, often offensive a person of Far Eastern descent.
DERIVATIVES orientalize |-?z| verb orientally adverb ORIGIN late Middle English : from Old French, or from Latin orientalis, from orient- (see orient ).
USAGE The term Oriental, denoting a person from the Far East, is regarded as offensive by many Asians, esp. Asian Americans. It has many associations with European imperialism in Asia. Therefore, it has an out-of-date feel and tends to be associated with a rather offensive stereotype of the people and their customs as inscrutable and exotic. Asian and more specific terms such as East Asian, Chinese, and Japanese are preferred."
tho i agree it may be just in america its considered to be negative.
Corrected my posts with Asian though I dont want anyone to mistake that as meaning Chineese. The Japaneese and South Koreans are doing a great Job and ill leave it at that.
I wish they would sell more concept cars. They look great and I would buy one if they ever manufactured them. The problem is that all the cars look the same now. They don't have an identity. Every Ford looks like every other Ford. Its the same with GM and Honda and Toyota.
Where did you get that?
The only thing I know is that, in the past, Chinese have referred to Japanese as Orientals and don't appreciate being called the same thing. This Japanese couldn't care less. There are derogatory terms that have been used against me and I'd take Oriental any day in place of those.
A lot of terms have lighter connotations in Europe. I'm coming to terms with people using "Jap" without malice.
Um, I agreed with most of your post - and even considered you pretty knowledgeable with cars.
Till I read that.
What rock did you crawl out from under? The 3 series has been on car and driver's 10 best cars list for fourteen consecutive years in a row[/i]. If there was "no value at all, not even slight-almost-justifiable value" it wouldn't have made it on that list ONCE.
I don't even know where to start.
How about we start with a $40k bmw being slow as molasses.
The new 335i (starting at 38k) puts out "300hp and 300lb-ft torque" on paper, however people are putting that much to the WHEELS on a dyno (meaning they're putting closer to 350hp to the crank.)
Since when is 350hp slow as molasses? Besides, straight-line performance and raw power is about the last thing BMWs are known for. Braking, skidpad, slalom, road-holding, overall handling, driver feedback, balance, etc, are all traits that make up a "drivers" car, these are things enthusiasts look for, and are obviously completely lost on you.
You know you can hop on auto trader and pick up an '02 M3 (333hp, 6 speed sequential) convertible for under 30k?
And please, if you're going to compare the cars to something - don't compare them to a 2-door, 2-seat roadster like a vette. They are very different cars with very different purposes. Most BMWs are comfortable daily-drivers that you can roll onto a track and blow by people in. My mechanic has brought his daughter's 98 M3 AUTO SEDAN to a track and beaten Cobras by seconds each lap.
Maybe you should go drive one, you'll understand.
edit: I'd also pay a little more respect to the X5 - just about the only "SUV" that drives and handles like a car. It shares the same center of gravity as many cars - they even routed the driveshaft through the oil-sump to keep weight as low as possible.
To demonstrate the chassis capabilities they threw a V12 in an X5 and kept the suspension geometry the same as a production-run X5, and put it on the Nurburgring. It managed a lap time of 7'49". That's.. shockingly fast. A C5 Corvette Z06 (half the height/weight) ran a lap time of 7'56". That's also a second faster than a Lamborghini Murcielago. Trust me, BMW's about the furthest thing from "slow as molasses."
That's their opinion, I posted mine. I sit in a BMW 3 series and see nothing that's worth MORE than $40,000, which is where a nicely equipped 335i falls. I would hope that somebody paying that much for such a small crappy car would get at least high performance. But that's not the car I was referring to anyway, because the 3 series is BMW's small, cheap car. Let's move onto something more interesting, like the 5 series (which is comparable to the Saab 9-5 Aero that I selected instead of a 5 series in both size and luxury appointments).
Let's start with the plain-jane, $43,000 BMW 525i. For about a grand more than Saab's fully loaded, top of the line 9-5 Aero (featuring 260 horse and 275lb of torque at overboost), you get 215 horsepower and 185 ft-lbs of torque. WHAT? That is insane! Who would even consider this car? Moving up to the $47,000+ 530i, we get almost the same horspower (255), but still a paltry 220 lb of torque? And this is the base price, which means the total is just under $49,645.
The next step up is the $58,000, 360hp 550i. Unfortunately for BMW, there is no middle ground. Either you get horrible performance, or ridiculous insane unnecessary performance.
I can't stand little cars like the 3 series, so compared to several other competitors, BMW's mid-size options were totally non-competitive, and you know it. All european brands have excellent braking, feedback, balance. It's all the same damn thing. The only thing BMW's have that I can feel while driving (from the couple that my family has owned) is their incredible handling on dry pavement. Yes, I'll give them that.
First of all my parents owned two (X5 and a much earlier 5 series sedan), and I'm well aware of what BMWs are and how they drive. We would also constantly get 3 series loaner cars from the dealer since the X5 was getting major repairs every few months. Please, spare me the "drive a BMW and you'll understand" garbage. You should drive some other european sport/luxury brands besides just BMW. Maybe you'll understand.
Well I don't know how old you are, but asian pacific islander studies had only really taken off in the last ten years. I've taken some APIA history classes and because of the historical context of those terms, it is politically correct to call asian americans orientals.
if you want torque why don't you get yourself a diesel ?
seriously it's always funny when americans talk about european cars and never even consider any models below 6 cylinders, despite the fact that the smaller engines on european cars are very likely some of the more reliable ones even more so on some of the diesel engines
we have a '93 C180 "sport edition" with 122 HP and it's way enough
anything more than 150-160 is a luxury
seriously it's always funny when americans talk about european cars and never even consider any models below 6 cylinders, despite the fact that the smaller engines on european cars are very likely some of the more reliable ones even more so on some of the diesel engines
we have a '93 C180 "sport edition" with 122 HP and it's way enough
anything more than 150-160 is a luxury
With all due respect - Saab is in a unique market (for a reason) and gets by because the under-cut the prices of the other Euro companies like Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, etc. It's a great car for the money (and I have driven one, my brother's wife has an '03ish 9-5, I can't stand the turbo lag by the way.) That's the difference between you and me, I can give credit where it's due, you just go out and say that every other car that you don't have a key to on your keychain is a piece of crap.
Unfortunately, by calling the 335i a "small crappy car" you're ruling out pretty much the majority of cars on the road. Why do you need anything larger? Considering the awards that car has already received, I'm not sure where you getting off calling it small and crappy - but that's just me.
I've also watched a team of M3s run circles around all wheel drive Audi RS4s in a DOWNPOUR in a speed world challenge GT race a few years back, their handling isn't limited to dry pavement trust me.
Also, I can't believe you said all European cars have good handling, braking, feedback, etc. BMW is among the few, Mercedes (even the AMGs) drive like pigs, as do Jags, most Audis, etc.
I'll agree with you, I wouldn't be able to justify the price of the 5 series - but everyone else somehow seems to be able to, and I'll promise you that BMW's sales figures are far more impressive than Saabs. 5's are a dime a dozen around here. You're also right about BMW not going half-assed about the performance of their cars - the M5 is their mid-size performance sedan, if you want random "mash on the gas and go" excitement, a BMW isn't the car for you anyways. This is even more true of the 7 series, if you're buying a big car, you're not doing it to go fast.
If you're an enthusiast looking for a car that just feels right - why get something with twice as much space as you'll ever use? Weight is the biggest enemy of ANY performance statistic.
Since you're big on research (lol) go check out the International Engine of the Year Awards, of the 96 awards handed out since the program began - Saab has won ONE (and it wasn't an overall.) BMW has won a total of 28 awards 4 of those were overall (of the 8 years the competition has been run.)
http://www.ukintpress.com/engineoftheyear/winners/winner.html
Besides we're talking new cars and hypotheticals here - all I know is that my car (which can be had for under 15 nowadays) will kill a 9-5 Aero and was designed 15 years ago.
edit: to add insult to injury http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/9993/35000-sports-sedans.html
Car and Driver review of 8 different sport sedans.
First place - BMW 330i
Last place - Saab 9-3 Aero (S60R placed second to last - not looking too good for the Swedes)
Either way - the guys that get paid to drive these things for a living couldn't seem to disagree with you more.
Unfortunately, by calling the 335i a "small crappy car" you're ruling out pretty much the majority of cars on the road. Why do you need anything larger? Considering the awards that car has already received, I'm not sure where you getting off calling it small and crappy - but that's just me.
I've also watched a team of M3s run circles around all wheel drive Audi RS4s in a DOWNPOUR in a speed world challenge GT race a few years back, their handling isn't limited to dry pavement trust me.
Also, I can't believe you said all European cars have good handling, braking, feedback, etc. BMW is among the few, Mercedes (even the AMGs) drive like pigs, as do Jags, most Audis, etc.
I'll agree with you, I wouldn't be able to justify the price of the 5 series - but everyone else somehow seems to be able to, and I'll promise you that BMW's sales figures are far more impressive than Saabs. 5's are a dime a dozen around here. You're also right about BMW not going half-assed about the performance of their cars - the M5 is their mid-size performance sedan, if you want random "mash on the gas and go" excitement, a BMW isn't the car for you anyways. This is even more true of the 7 series, if you're buying a big car, you're not doing it to go fast.
If you're an enthusiast looking for a car that just feels right - why get something with twice as much space as you'll ever use? Weight is the biggest enemy of ANY performance statistic.
Since you're big on research (lol) go check out the International Engine of the Year Awards, of the 96 awards handed out since the program began - Saab has won ONE (and it wasn't an overall.) BMW has won a total of 28 awards 4 of those were overall (of the 8 years the competition has been run.)
http://www.ukintpress.com/engineoftheyear/winners/winner.html
Besides we're talking new cars and hypotheticals here - all I know is that my car (which can be had for under 15 nowadays) will kill a 9-5 Aero and was designed 15 years ago.
edit: to add insult to injury http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/9993/35000-sports-sedans.html
Car and Driver review of 8 different sport sedans.
First place - BMW 330i
Last place - Saab 9-3 Aero (S60R placed second to last - not looking too good for the Swedes)
Either way - the guys that get paid to drive these things for a living couldn't seem to disagree with you more.
from being alive, observant, and recently graduated from a college whose student body is 1/3 made up of people from Korea, Japan, China, Thailand, Indonesia and a few other countries on the pacific rim.
I've been a big BMW fan for a while now. I am on my 5th BMW and once this lease is up guess what ill be getting.. thats right, another BMW.
I have found that 9/10 times someone told me their BMW was acting up it was because proper maintenance wasn't followed. It's a BMW, jiffy lube isn't going to cut it as far as maintenance goes.
That said I have never had a single issue with any of my BMW's that I didn't directly cause. When i hit that inverted speed bump at 40 in my M3 and it tore apart the plastic under-shielding, not BMW's fault.. my negligence. Maintenance used to be pretty pricey, i remember going to Shelly BMW and paying $110ish for a "oil maintenance", of course oil maintenances are about once or twice a year depending on your driving habits. And it isnt just a simple oil and filter change like it would be for most other cars.
Nowadays they include 4 years paid maintenance on all new BMW's, my new 3'r has a maintenance plan that will go on longer than i will ever have the car. The only thing it doesn't cover is tires. However Wiper blades, brake pads, oil services, maintenance I and II, you name it, its covered. Since im leasing the car, this means $0 out of my pocket for regular maintenance.
Insurance is no more expensive fora 3'r than it is for other cars, in fact my friend traded in his 2002 328i for a 2006 Honda Accord and his insurance went up based on the fact that Hondas are easier and more widely stolen for parts.
Overall BMW makes quality cars and as a company has great craftsmanship. BMW's customer service is awesome, hands down the best customer service that i have seen from any company. Of course there will be a lemon in every batch, my friend had a X3 that was nothing but issues, but honestly the problems are few and far between and the people that are most vocal are usually the ones complaining. You rarely hear from those that are satisfied, hence why im writing this.
My lease is up in June of 2009, ill be looking forward to leasing a M3 if i can get my hands on one. If not then I will probably just lease another 3'r since BMW as a company has yet to let me down. I like the 3, its the perfect sized car for me, the 5 felt too bulky as i am used to driving smaller cars, and the 7, well forget about it, i don't have enough grey hair to be driving one of those
I say buy whatever makes you happy and whatever feels right when you are behind the wheel, you will never go wrong with that
Ed
I have found that 9/10 times someone told me their BMW was acting up it was because proper maintenance wasn't followed. It's a BMW, jiffy lube isn't going to cut it as far as maintenance goes.
That said I have never had a single issue with any of my BMW's that I didn't directly cause. When i hit that inverted speed bump at 40 in my M3 and it tore apart the plastic under-shielding, not BMW's fault.. my negligence. Maintenance used to be pretty pricey, i remember going to Shelly BMW and paying $110ish for a "oil maintenance", of course oil maintenances are about once or twice a year depending on your driving habits. And it isnt just a simple oil and filter change like it would be for most other cars.
Nowadays they include 4 years paid maintenance on all new BMW's, my new 3'r has a maintenance plan that will go on longer than i will ever have the car. The only thing it doesn't cover is tires. However Wiper blades, brake pads, oil services, maintenance I and II, you name it, its covered. Since im leasing the car, this means $0 out of my pocket for regular maintenance.
Insurance is no more expensive fora 3'r than it is for other cars, in fact my friend traded in his 2002 328i for a 2006 Honda Accord and his insurance went up based on the fact that Hondas are easier and more widely stolen for parts.
Overall BMW makes quality cars and as a company has great craftsmanship. BMW's customer service is awesome, hands down the best customer service that i have seen from any company. Of course there will be a lemon in every batch, my friend had a X3 that was nothing but issues, but honestly the problems are few and far between and the people that are most vocal are usually the ones complaining. You rarely hear from those that are satisfied, hence why im writing this.
My lease is up in June of 2009, ill be looking forward to leasing a M3 if i can get my hands on one. If not then I will probably just lease another 3'r since BMW as a company has yet to let me down. I like the 3, its the perfect sized car for me, the 5 felt too bulky as i am used to driving smaller cars, and the 7, well forget about it, i don't have enough grey hair to be driving one of those
I say buy whatever makes you happy and whatever feels right when you are behind the wheel, you will never go wrong with that
Ed
I love BMW's too. My dad had a 2002 BMW 330xi. When we bought the 2007 Saturn Aura XR my dad gave it to my brother as a grad present if he finished graduate school. Next year I will get the Aura and my dad will be in the market to replace the BMW. The 330xi was pretty reliable. Only two problems with it. Blown waterpump at 45K and a pulley at 72K. Not relatively major problems, but expensive to repair. But, that is what you get for owning a BMW, expensive parts. I think there will be 2 cars my dad will be looking at. The new 2008 Cadillac CTS with the 300 HP 3.6 DI with AWD or the BMW 335xi. If BMW doesn't add xDrive to the 335i for the '08MY I think he would lean to the CTS because it will have AWD. But, who knows, he might want to save the money and get the 328xi with the 230 HP I6.
Haha, you won't.
Asian does not mean "Chinese." And if you're from England, Asian does not mean "Indian."
Technically, shecky is right, although I wouldn't take offense to it. I don't mind the word "Asian", but sometimes it's really annoying, like when someone says "You Asians do [this] and [that] well." You just categorized nearly 3 billion people with one word.
Also, I hate it when I hear people calling Japanese people "Japs," which happens often in Australia. Australians don't have much culture (none, actually) and is rather well known for its racism against "Asians", but anyway...
- Abstract "the oriental"
Tell that to my 2002 Mercury Cougar that I replaced last fall.
These are all est milage since I pretty much burned everything I had after getting rid of the car.
Major SELLING points....
1,000 miles - bad sway bar ball barings
16,000 miles - fuel pump died
18,000 miles - Several hoses had to be replaced because they were on the verge of breaking.
22,000 miles - fuel pump died.
26,000 miles - Problems with the electrical system that caused the headlights to dim then return to normal brightness when I rolled down the windows.
Somewhere in here the fuel pump died a third time. I then found out they had a recall on it that just came out.
30,000 miles - fuel gage stuck at 0.
36,000 miles - fuel gage stuck at 0.
36,000 miles - tach stopped working.
40,000 miles - drivers side seatbelt wouldn't roll up. At all. Not one of these if you play with it a bit it will roll back up. I mean dead.
55,000 - Transmission died.
60,000 - Crack found in front driver side rim even though I didn't hit anything to cause this. It explains why even ever replacing the tire I still had to fill it up with air once every 2-3 weeks.
Sold the thing around 66\68,000 for my Prius.
I received Stitch as a regift from my girlfriend. A few years ago when Lilo & Stitch came out she was really into it so I picked up a Stitch plush at the Disney store at the mall. When I got my car she gave it back as the "official" mascot of the car.
In conclusion I will never buy, at the very least, another Ford car ever again.
These are all est milage since I pretty much burned everything I had after getting rid of the car.
Major SELLING points....
1,000 miles - bad sway bar ball barings
16,000 miles - fuel pump died
18,000 miles - Several hoses had to be replaced because they were on the verge of breaking.
22,000 miles - fuel pump died.
26,000 miles - Problems with the electrical system that caused the headlights to dim then return to normal brightness when I rolled down the windows.
Somewhere in here the fuel pump died a third time. I then found out they had a recall on it that just came out.
30,000 miles - fuel gage stuck at 0.
36,000 miles - fuel gage stuck at 0.
36,000 miles - tach stopped working.
40,000 miles - drivers side seatbelt wouldn't roll up. At all. Not one of these if you play with it a bit it will roll back up. I mean dead.
55,000 - Transmission died.
60,000 - Crack found in front driver side rim even though I didn't hit anything to cause this. It explains why even ever replacing the tire I still had to fill it up with air once every 2-3 weeks.
Sold the thing around 66\68,000 for my Prius.
I received Stitch as a regift from my girlfriend. A few years ago when Lilo & Stitch came out she was really into it so I picked up a Stitch plush at the Disney store at the mall. When I got my car she gave it back as the "official" mascot of the car.
In conclusion I will never buy, at the very least, another Ford car ever again.
Silicon, one lemon shouldn't make you an expert on defining if Fords are reliable. Now I am not excusing Ford or GM for their past mistakes. They did screw up big time. Now cars are a huge investment so you can expect quality out of a product, but lemons do happen. If you reveived a bad iMac, would you label all iMacs and Macs as POS's and never buy from Apple again?
Well, no, that isn't very fair, as there were BMWs sitting in my garage in the past (granted, they weren't mine) but I never had a Saab before either. I didn't just suddenly become fan of them. Before buying the car (my third) I did research on what I thought was the best deal.
Because I don't like small cars! For reference, I wouldn't buy a Saab 9-3 either, as it is Saab's smaller, crappier car compared to the 9-5. Not as good interior, far less room and trunk space, cheaper feel, etc... Just like the 3 series compared to the 5 series. The BMW 5 series, Saab 9-5, Volvo S60, etc... those are all right in my comfort zone of cars.
I'm not in the market for an M3.
They all handle great compared to most American cars. And I'm an American car fan too (Saturn Aura, woo!).
It's because they want a car that says "BMW" on it. Just from that statement, you're essentially agreeing with me that the 5 series has no value in it.
You don't have to promise me that, I'm well aware of it. People really like BMW logos.
Can't argue with that.
Exactly - they have no "performance flavor" cars for the masses. Your choices are to buy expensive slow 5 series, or a really expensive one that is overkill in the power department.
I use all that space all the time. You should find a stick 9-5 Aero (extremely hard to find sadly) and you'll agree that Saab sure squeezed a heck of a lot of performance out of such a big car for only $40,000.
Those really mean nothing to me. All I can go by is the actual stats of the powertrains combined with how the cars fell when I drive them. I've had no choice but to come to the conclusion that the BMW 5 series is non-competitive.
My engine was designed 26 years ago and still beats out (no, kills) BMW's offerings in the same class and price range.
They really like BMW logos too.
My point, anyways, is I really don't like BMWs anymore for various reasons, including the horrible reliability of my mom's X5, plus the totally overpriced 5 series when compared to other cars that 5 series owners "dismiss" even though they're clearly better.
I honestly can't see how anyone who is objective could chose a 5 series over the 9-5. Unless you just like the styling and aesthetics of the swoopy BMW better than the more angular 9-5 - that I can understand.