And now, let's listen to a developer

[darkblu]

i won't be flashing my credentials and work experience (anyway, kdarling beats me to it : ), but yes, i'm a developer with a background in real-time applications and limited resources, so i'll just chime in with the following:

• the author of the article from the OP clearly knows what he's talking about. which is: thinking of a mobile in desktop terms is short-sighted, to put it mildly. piggybacking and doing your job in the little windows when you're given green light by the system is the way many real-time, mission-sensitive environments work.
  
• the people who are crying so loudly about 'being restricted' on their mobile devices fall mostly into two categories:
  - nerds who don't use their devices for much useful work but tinkering and showing off, 'look, ma, i can run IM on my phone!', while keeping their mobiles in the charging cradles most of the time, hence caring little about the device's reliabillity in its primary functions (again, the concept of mission-critical devices is apparently foreign to those).
  - developers with predominantly desktop background: 'i can clog memory and waste ridiculous amouts of cycles on desktops, apple are evil for not letting me do that on a phone! look at WM and android - they're doing it right!'. first, if WM was doing it right then how come the pocketPC is not ubiquitous today - it's been around for ages, carrying around the desktop paradigm, and even playing a phone sometimes! second, android is a non-tangible platform, before we declare it as 'the right thing' maybe we should, well, see it first in action?

 

[Archie-]

- developers with predominantly desktop background: 'i can clog memory and waste ridiculous amouts of cycles on desktops, apple are evil for not letting me do that on a phone! look at WM and android - they're doing it right!'. first, if WM was doing it right then how come the pocketPC is not ubiquitous today - it's been around for ages, carrying around the desktop paradigm, and even playing a phone sometimes! second, android is a non-tangible platform, before we declare it as 'the right thing' maybe we should, well, see it first in action?

Yes, please go ahead an ignore a mobile platform that is actually ubiquitous and has taken over the world, and doesn't have the ridiculous restrictions the iPhone has.

How about that, its possible after all!!!

Symbian has true multi-tasking, and ship >70 million handsets per year. Apple is only hoping to ship 6 million this year. Good luck to them and their locked up phone.

Market leader
As of 31 December 2007:

22.4 million Symbian smartphones shipped by licensees in Q4 2007 up 53% from Q4 2006
77.3 million Symbian smartphones shipped to consumers worldwide in 2007, up 50% from 2006
Symbian’s share of the overall mobile phone market grew from 5% in 2006 to 7% in 2007
(Strategy Analytics)
188 new million cumulative Symbian smartphones shipped since the formation of Symbian
68 Symbian smartphone models commercially available in 2007 up 4.6% from 2006
8,736 third-party Symbian applications commercially available, an increase of 27% on Q4 2006

http://www.symbian.com/about/fastfacts/fastfacts.html

and BTW, even WM outships the iPhone, and not because its pretty, but because its useful Guess which OS runs on that PDA your delivery guy uses?

 

[emotion]

One thing that the release of the iPhone has done. Increase the number of people that bemoan Apple - iWhiners.

As for Symbian: the actual number of those phones that are present on the web is already smaller than the number of iPhones.

 

[Archie-]

As for Symbian: the actual number of those phones that are present on the web is already smaller than the number of iPhones.

Yet strangely, despite multi-tasking, a lot more phone calls are made with those devices.

Or is that no longer the primary focus of a phone (that would supposedly be killed by multi-tasking)

I bet more MMS messages are sent from those phones also.

 

[emotion]

Yet strangely, despite multi-tasking, a lot more phone calls are made with those devices.

Or is that no longer the primary focus of a phone (that would supposedly be killed by multi-tasking)

I bet more MMS messages are sent from those phones also.

Who cares? The iPhone is a phone second and an all round communication device first for most people. Certainly for me.

If you ever get around to getting one then you'll see.

As for sales, Windows is the most popular OS for desktops/laptops. Doesn't mean it's any good or that everyone should like it.

 

[darkblu]

Symbian has true multi-tasking, and ship >70 million handsets per year. Apple is only hoping to ship 6 million this year. Good luck to them and their locked up phone.

(a) how many of those symbian devices are actual open-platform phones, and how many just vanilla smart phones (phone + mp3 player + java) which happen to run symbian?

(b) 'true multitasking' as a function of the kernel/scheduler has little to do with the platform's policy for background tasks. a dumb symbian app will kill your phone's battery in no time (and crash your phone, and blow up your airtime bill - been there, done that).

(c) you're grabbing for the wrong argument here - symbian is being phased out as an open platform for the top-end nokia devices in favor of Maemo - a fairly different open architecture. so if you're going to compare apples to apples you may want to check how Maemo is doing (hint: it's doing decently, but not as well as the iphone).

and BTW, even WM outships the iPhone, and not because its pretty, but because its useful Guess which OS runs on that PDA your delivery guy uses?

yes, and my delivery guy used to use a palmOS one before that - why don't you argue how much better a palm pilot is?

delivery guys use one-app devices, similar to POS (point-of-sale) terminals - what os they run is almost irrelevant, as it's a closed, robust (and bulky), one-function device.

 

[kdarling]

As for Symbian: the actual number of those phones that are present on the web is already smaller than the number of iPhones.

Symbian phones worldwide still surf three times as much as iPhones. (Earlier articles stating otherwise left out lots of models.)

Browser shares article from MacWorld

There's no doubt that the mobile Safari browser is fun and easy to use. Just wish it had the ability to copy/paste, save pics, view local files, and many other things that other browsers can do.

 

[emotion]

There's no doubt that the mobile Safari browser is fun and easy to use. Just wish it had the ability to copy/paste, save pics, view local files, and many other things that other browsers can do.

Agreed, I'm patient enough to wait. I'm sure it will come. There are a few UI issues with copy/paste in particular that they need to sort in their implementation I think.

There's no doubt the iPhone is in a primitive state right now. Even at this point though it's a very usable device.

 

[Eraserhead]

and BTW, even WM outships the iPhone, and not because its pretty, but because its useful Guess which OS runs on that PDA your delivery guy uses?

But if you look at Hitslink, the iPhone (and iPod Touch) have more than twice the webshare of Windows Mobile and Series 60 put together.

I'd say that made the iPhone the useful one.

EDIT: I missed the StatCounter article, which says differently, interesting as they both record 100's of millions of hits, though Hitslink records less...

 

[hard-case]

Symbian has true multi-tasking, and ship >70 million handsets per year. Apple is only hoping to ship 6 million this year. Good luck to them and their locked up phone.

Symbian = 100+ handsets
Apple = 1 handset.

and BTW, even WM outships the iPhone, and not because its pretty, but because its useful Guess which OS runs on that PDA your delivery guy uses?

Windows Mobile = 60 handsets
Apple = 1 handset

Windows Mobile = ~8 years old
Symbian = ~7 years old
"iPhone" = < 1 year old

 

[Matti]

(a) how many of those symbian devices are actual open-platform phones, and how many just vanilla smart phones (phone + mp3 player + java) which happen to run symbian?

All symbian phones are smartphones and can install software. You must be thinking about Nokia's lowend S40 phones which aren't based on Symbian, altough people often think they are ("S" in S40 comes from finnish word sarja (=series), not from Symbian).

(b) 'true multitasking' as a function of the kernel/scheduler has little to do with the platform's policy for background tasks. a dumb symbian app will kill your phone's battery in no time (and crash your phone, and blow up your airtime bill - been there, done that).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o3d0Y8loHo

"About this video

I tested the nokia n82 to see if i could use up all the executable RAM, i failed lol.

after opening every single ROM application in the device, i started to open the 3rd party softwares i had installed also.. and after aprox 74 applications open and running in the background, i ran out of applications to open, and still 23MB of executable RAM memory was still free.."

http://thesymbianblog.com/2008/03/05/multitasking-n82/

"As a practical test I decided to see how useful can all that RAM be, I am pleased to say that not only is it useful but it will also satisfy the geek in you. I actually ran each and every application I had on the phone including Web, Music Player, Ngage, two Gmail clients (for the java), another game, basically everything and not one crashed or the phone hung. Have a look at the screenshots and see for yourself!"

(c) you're grabbing for the wrong argument here - symbian is being phased out as an open platform for the top-end nokia devices in favor of Maemo - a fairly different open architecture. so if you're going to compare apples to apples you may want to check how Maemo is doing (hint: it's doing decently, but not as well as the iphone).

No. Maemo is only used in internet-tablets. Nokia has systematicly denied that they are switching for Maemo on phones.

 

[Phil A.]

Yes, please go ahead an ignore a mobile platform that is actually ubiquitous and has taken over the world, and doesn't have the ridiculous restrictions the iPhone has.

How about that, its possible after all!!!

Symbian has true multi-tasking, and ship >70 million handsets per year. Apple is only hoping to ship 6 million this year. Good luck to them and their locked up phone.

the iPhone OS is fully multitasking: Apple have made the choice to prevent 3rd party apps from multitasking. I would prefer it if they didn't enforce this restriction, but can understand why they've done it.
BTW, Symbian will shut down applications when it feels like it if memory starts running low.

 

[Archie-]

BTW, Symbian will shut down applications when it feels like it if memory starts running low.

Thats called memory management, something which Apple seems intent to avoid, in favour of developer restrictions.

In summary other platforms have succeeded without crippling their platform, so there is nothing to say Apple's way of doing it is the "right" way, its just the easiest and laziest way for Apple.

 

[darkblu]

All symbian phones are smartphones and can install software. You must be thinking about Nokia's lowend S40 phones which aren't based on Symbian, altough people often think they are ("S" in S40 comes from finnish word sarja (=series), not from Symbian).

point taken. i originally assumed some of them would be "dumb" smart phones ala S40 series (though not necesserily S40) but i could not find a single 'dumb' symbian specimen sold presently on the market, so i'll concede here.

that said, do you happen to know if UIQ and DoCoMO symbians are counted toward those quoted nokia numbers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o3d0Y8loHo

"About this video

I tested the nokia n82 to see if i could use up all the executable RAM, i failed lol.

after opening every single ROM application in the device, i started to open the 3rd party softwares i had installed also.. and after aprox 74 applications open and running in the background, i ran out of applications to open, and still 23MB of executable RAM memory was still free.."

http://thesymbianblog.com/2008/03/05/multitasking-n82/

"As a practical test I decided to see how useful can all that RAM be, I am pleased to say that not only is it useful but it will also satisfy the geek in you. I actually ran each and every application I had on the phone including Web, Music Player, Ngage, two Gmail clients (for the java), another game, basically everything and not one crashed or the phone hung. Have a look at the screenshots and see for yourself!"

i know i originally made a somewhat anecdotal point, and yet, it was more from pinciple (ergo the 'dumb app' generalization) - whereas the above links point to purely anecdotal experience. moreover that it's one thing to load up as many apps for a short-time stress-test, it's another when you have those running for days on, as full-fledged, competing background tasks. agree?

for me the above tests prove little else than:
(a) the paltform can run background tasks, with no indication of system load whatsoever (did they actually run or idle? and what did they do if they ran?).
(b) the memory usage (both system's and of said apps) is not bloatful - so kudos to their authors.

No. Maemo is only used in internet-tablets. Nokia has systematicly denied that they are switching for Maemo on phones.

alright then, i'll give them the benefit of their denial - let's wait and see.


ps: i'm not trying to badmouth nokia here - i have plenty of respect for them, though not necesserilly software-wise, but i should admit my last in-depth contact with their os was somewhere around symbian 7, at which time it left a rather bad taste in my mouth. what i'm trying to point out is that wishful thinking should not be mixed with reality. symbian is (was, and by merit of backward compatibility still is) quite far from a modern desktop os (clearly moreso than iphone's os is) and when it's being given as an example of 'things done right in a desktop way' i tend to be more spiteful than usual.

 

[Eraserhead]

Thats called memory management, something which Apple seems intent to avoid, in favour of developer restrictions.

Not really, Apple is doing exactly the same, they want you to make applications that can close and reopen exactly where they left off. So it should appear to the user to work in exactly the same way.

 

[alFR]

Wow, I love how all these people on Teh Intarwebs(TM) know more than Apple engineers about how best to use the iPhone's resources. Yes, Archie, I'm looking at you. How about you point us to the mobile OS development work you've done, so we can see that you know what you're talking about? Oh, you haven't done any? Thought so....

FWIW I don't care how 3rd-party apps work on the iPhone, as long as they do what they say they'll do and don't screw up my phone. I'd imagine 99% of other users are in exactly the same position.

 

[Archie-]

Wow, I love how all these people on Teh Intarwebs(TM) know more than Apple engineers about how best to use the iPhone's resources. Yes, Archie, I'm looking at you. How about you point us to the mobile OS development work you've done, so we can see that you know what you're talking about? Oh, you haven't done any? Thought so....

I dont need to have done mobile OS development to know Apple could do better. The proof is out there. You just need to open your eyes. Anyway, the problem is not that the iPhone has limited resources, but that Apple has decided ahead of time for the user how those resources should be used. Would you be happy if the state prevented you from running your air conditioner and electric oven at the same time, so you could save on your electricity bill? Only sheep would be happy with such treatment. Yet people are perfectly happy with Apple making all their choices for them.

FWIW I don't care how 3rd-party apps work on the iPhone, as long as they do what they say they'll do and don't screw up my phone. I'd imagine 99% of other users are in exactly the same position.

Obviously if you bought an iPhone you did not really care if the iPhone ever got 3rd party apps or not. You are therefore very unlikely to care about using your phone to its best potential.

 

[Small White Car]

And you are endorsing this? You are willing to put up with a lot, arnt you.

And you're willing to put up with a phone that dies before you get home every day.

I find THAT useless.

 

[Eraserhead]

Would you be happy if the state prevented you from running your air conditioner and electric oven at the same time, so you could save on your electricity bill?

Well its not ideal, but if there wasn't enough power for everyone to use, then that would be OK in my book. That is more the situation with the iPhone.

FWIW I'm certainly not a sheep, and I do regularly complain about things that aren't right.

 

[alFR]

I dont need to have done mobile OS development to know Apple could do better. The proof is out there.

You haven't presented any real evidence for that in this thread, just a lot of talk about other platforms (which may or may not have the same resource restrictions as an iPhone). Care to share some?

Anyway, the problem is not that the iPhone has limited resources, but that Apple has decided ahead of time for the user how those resources should be used.

Again, how do you know what the problem is? Or how best to solve it? Are you an iPhone engineer, or even a dev? If not, how do you know how running background processes affects battery life, for example? It seems like you don't even own an iPhone, so you don't even have any first-hand experience of how different usage cases affects battery life.

Yet people are perfectly happy with Apple making all their choices for them.

Yes, I know nothing about how the iPhone works internally (apart from the basics). Because of that, I am happy to let the people who built it (and thus do know how it works) work out what's best. I suppose you keep filling your petrol car up with diesel, do you, because you don't like the manufacturers dictating what fuel you should use? Good luck with that.

Obviously if you bought an iPhone you did not really care if the iPhone ever got 3rd party apps or not. You are therefore very unlikely to care about using your phone to its best potential.

Mind reader too, eh?

 

[zetsurin]

Kinda difficult to avoid that really given Steve runs Apple and you don't.

As explained above there are a few reasons why Apple might impose limitations at this stage. It's not an elegant solution to have battery warnings popping up all the time. Very un-Apple.

It's pointless moaning on at this stage. Wait until the software that's being developed lands. Then, by all means, complain (or if you are a dev, then think of a clever way around it).

Actually, no it's not difficult. I've been writing my own apps for months using the unofficial SDK and one of them is a download manager that ... runs in the background. Tada! I'm not bound by the 'clueless' shackles that the iProduct types are. And before you try, I've developed PalmOS, PocketPC and Symbian apps before so I am well aware of what I am doing.

 

[Eraserhead]

Actually, no it's not difficult. I've been writing my own apps for months using the unofficial SDK and one of them is a download manager that ... runs in the background. Tada! I'm not bound by the 'clueless' shackles that the iProduct types are. And before you try, I've developed PalmOS, PocketPC and Symbian apps before so I am well aware of what I am doing.

I expect you hate NSArray too because it doesn't let you choose what data storage type you want, whether a heap (binomial, Fibonacci or relaxed, or something else), or a real array, or a tree, and which algorithm you want to use to keep the tree balanced, do you like red-black trees or something else?

At a certain point the framework maker has to make a decision about stuff like this, you may not always like it, and sometimes you may be right. But in balance I prefer getting the data storage type chosen for me most of the time (as it saves a lot of time an effort) they also put restrictions in the iPhone API.

 

[wizard]

YGuess which OS runs on that PDA your delivery guy uses?

LINUX baby!

Not that I really care but it is pretty obvious that what ever OS these alternative devices have the they have not been used n the fashion that iPhone has. That is the iPhone OS is doing more that supporting a cell phone dialer.

Dave