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Mr_Ed

macrumors 6502a
Mar 10, 2004
719
708
North and east of Mickeyland
Funny, Apple's reputation from day one has been that its devices are more expensive than the competition, because they are seen as more "premium." So though you say it's "always price, end of story," clearly it is not. People who buy Apple devices rather than HPs, Dells, Samsungs, Motorolas or Googles are willing to bite the bullet and pay more, because they feel they get more. It's been that way for decades.

If you want a cheaper device, you shop elsewhere. Apple doesn't play in the same sandbox as the brands aimed at price-sensitive shoppers.
I partly agree with what you are saying. As you said, for many of us paying a “premium” was worth it because Apple provided a superior experience when compared with the competition. The problem today is that the competition has improved to the point that Apple’s premium pricing is not really worth it anymore. For me this is really obvious where computers are concerned (Windows vs. Mac). Others have made similar comments about the current state of Android phones vs. iPhones (I can’t comment on phones, never tried Android).

So it’s not so much “I want a cheaper device”, it’s “Apple’s premium pricing is not buying the added value that it used to, so I’m buying something else”.
 

Dark_Omen

macrumors 6502
Jan 31, 2021
380
478
1. I dont understand the people who upgrade their phones every year. You should be able to get at least 3-4 years out of your phone.

2. At this point, what more innovation can be expected from an iPhone (or any smartphone, for that matter)? That period of major advances in the early years of these phones is over, and now we are at a plateau because the phones are pretty damn good for most people's usage. I doubt there's any reasonable demand that couldn't be met by some phone on the market.
For "smart phones" they're still very much dumb.

Just look at Siri on the iPhone. The dumbest piece of tech in existence, aside from AT&T's OPUS system.

"Siri, turn on my car," should be a function. "Siri, unlock my car." "Siri, turn on TV." or more advanced features... "Siri, what times are available for meetings today?"
 
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MechaVice

macrumors newbie
Feb 11, 2024
12
15
For "smart phones" they're still very much dumb.

Just look at Siri on the iPhone. The dumbest piece of tech in existence, aside from AT&T's OPUS system.

"Siri, turn on my car," should be a function. "Siri, unlock my car." "Siri, turn on TV." or more advanced features... "Siri, what times are available for meetings today?"
Not must-haves IMO, but good ideas for sure. I assume they are feasible to implement, especially the last one.
 

jjohnstonjr

macrumors 6502
Apr 18, 2017
267
361
Cleveland Ohio
Serious question, what features people use daily on Android that are missing in iOS ?
lot of my friends say i can install any ROM i want, i can slide load apps, but most people don't caee or have time for these.
A higher quality camera(s)
A gorgeous display
Longer lasting battery life
 

mrgrdn

macrumors member
Feb 15, 2024
32
26
In business its always price, end of story. They're pricing themselves into oblivion and customers are starting to notice the nickel and diming strategies they have employed.
In business, that may be the case, but reality looks different. Prices haven't just increased at Apple, and I wouldn't be surprised if they rise again this year, given our current recession. What isn't getting more expensive?

Additionally, I believe that the fact fewer iPhones are being purchased isn't a problem. It's actually quite good... durability and reliability.

It's too easy to always focus on the obvious.
 
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Beautyspin

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2012
1,007
1,173
Activations are a pretty good proxy for sales, but as CIRP itself suggested from a user standpoint if actual usage share isn't decreasing, lower activations is arguably a good thing--it most likely means that people are happy with what they have, don't feel the need to upgrade, and if usage share isn't decreasing they're not switching platforms, either.
There is no compelling reason for iPhone users to upgrade or for Android users to switch.

1. The first can happen when the iPhones last a long time. But users generally do not wait for their phone to conk out before replacing. They look at the new model and see what they are missing and update it because the new features are compelling. Newer models of iPhones do not give the existing users the incentive to upgrade.
2. Android users are not switching because they feel the iPhones are no longer offering a compelling reason to switch. Remember, Android to iPhone switching need not be for the latest model. An Android user who uses a 2022 phone may switch to iPhone 12 (or something similar) because it is now within their budget. Even those are activations. Looks like even that is not happening.

That last sentence, though, does not logically follow from the previous statement. If Apple and Android devices both have exactly the same average lifespan in the hands of consumers, then this would be true--a lower fraction of activations would mean that Apple is also losing "real" share.
Android activations happen because the new phones have compelling features at all price points. So, if my budget was $300 (or whatve), I would upgrade to a phone in the $300 dollars because the new phones in that range have compelling features and therefore, I upgrade.
 
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Beautyspin

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2012
1,007
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Apple has said more than once it doesn’t expect its iPhone customers to be perpetual upgraders. Now I don’t know what planet you live on but apple has an entire ecosystem of services and products to spend money on. I don’t live in the planet that apple is a one trick pony.

There can be no other way to describe the above as subjective. Value is in the eyes of the beholder.
If the activations are becoming less, then eventually MarketShare will tank. With it, the services revenue will also come down. I mean, if users do not have iPhones, how will they use the services? They're all related and hence the Apple shareholders are worried.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,310
24,041
Gotta be in it to win it
As prices rise, buyers scrutinize value proposition harder. "Wow! Now it costs $X,XXX. Can I get another year out of an 'almost as good' <thing> I already own?"
For the sake of the conversation assume we are discussing phones. The price of lowest end models have been fairly stable, while the price of the highest end models have only risen slightly in the last few years since the iPhone X. Apple,unlike other phone manufacturers doesn’t need yearly iPhone sales with its array of products and services. But yeah, I agree I when replacing appliances (incudes, kitchen, electronic, anything that performs a function) always look at value vs cost.
Apple needs higher pricing to keep the "another record quarter..." announcements train rolling down the track. Pleasing Wall Street (and especially the recurring spin of 'another record quarter') seems like it rules all decision-making these days... which is why so many decisions can feel "greedy" more than anything else. There is some price tier(s) where a segment(s) of even historical fans opt out and/or kicks the can for another year or three.
The days of the record breaking quarters are over. Apple doesn’t need to keep this train going. Apple is about the experience, and with billions of devices out there they have to be careful about what they do. What you think is greedy, is apple trying to be fair for all. And fans shoul kick the can down the road if that’s what their requirements are.
Consumers need a perception of greater value in new releases... a "bargain" if you will through a consumer lens... and not just in iPhone but in all Apple products. Instead, it feels like the Corp has forgotten where the revenue flow starts... and/or that another way to delight shareholders is as a byproduct of happier customers being moved to buy more stuff instead of maximizing profit on every single transaction.
False. Consumers need something concrete to get them to upgrade an appliance (again, including kitchen computer or any electronic component). And apple delivers that. It doesn’t mean everyone though will jump on the upgrade bandwagon.
I'm a 20+ year Apple everything guy in need of an updated MB. I was ready to buy on launch day of M2 MBair until I configured it as I wanted it. Unlike PCs where there is robust competition for upgrade "parts", Apple upgrade pricing is relatively ridiculous. So that easy Mac sale did not occur... nor have I "come around" since that launch... even at refurb offerings (10%-15% off "ridiculous" is still relatively ridiculous). Instead, I purchased a $55 third party battery to reinvigorate the existing MB for another year or two. This has me fully considering a PC laptop instead of MB. 5+ years ago the ONLY choices could have been MBpro vs. MBair. Now a PC is firmly in consideration.

What is the whole OCLP thing about? A hack to let people squeeze more years out of the aging Macs they already own. Is a very security-minded crowd turning to a third party hack so they can upgrade macOS which- among other things- promises more security (against hacks)? Think about it: choosing a fundamental hack for better protections against hacks. And then there's the other thought: look there, aging hardware CAN readily run macOS updates beyond when the Corp chooses to cut them off. With that hard proof, why doesn't the Corp just extend some useful life value? [rhetorical: we know]

5+ years ago when I had to run anything in Windows, I'd run it in a Mac via Bootcamp. Now, I've added a PC desktop for "old fashioned bootcamp" since ARM Windows is not full Windows.

5+ years ago, all of my computing would be done on an Apple-branded screen. I'm viewing this post on a Dell 5K ultra-wide screen. Why Dell? Much more screen R.E., multiple inputs to support "old fashioned bootcamp" too and a built-in hub with many 2024 useful ports instead only 3 of one type. Looks fantastic with the Mac I have AND the PC (and has 2 more inputs should I want to use it with anything else).

3+ years ago, I would only consider AirPods for buds. When my APP2s wore out and rumors of APP4s flying, I decided to try some $20-but-well-rated cheapies on Amazon to try to bridge the gap. They look, feel, sound and work as well as the old $169 APPs. So now AirPods is no longer a "must-or-bust" purchase.
Here’s where it gets interesting. My family did not have a single apple device until the iPhone 4 and then it was an avalanche. Fast forward today. My kids use iPhone, AirPods, AirTags, HomePods, MB Airs. Me and the misses have a mixed environment with windows.
HomePods? Nope, I chose the much more flexible and open Sonos for smart speakers, which work as well with Mac, Siri, Home, Airplay, Music, etc... and already offer Apple fan wants like true surround sound setups and soundbars. Sonos pricing is very much like Apple pricing. So unlike the buds proposition, Sonos was not about price but about relative VALUE for about the same money.
Won’t go with Sonos an love my HomePods. To each their own.
Similarly, that Dell monitor cost about the same as an ASD with stand option or an iMac 27" which had the same ASD monitor in it + an entire Mac + keyboard + mouse in box too. Again, the message is consumer VALUE.

These are the kinds of things that happen for some of us when a CORP goes too far towards pleasing shareholders at the (ever growing) expense of customers.
You don’t get to $3T and stay at $3T (give or take) by pissing off your customers and driving them elsewhere. If you don’t think apples products have the correct value to price ratio, don’t buy them. They are not changing their strategy because of some rants on the internet.
We start considering OTHER options, try OTHER things and realize that our tech itches can mostly get scratched as well- or better- with other products... and/or at lower-to-much-lower prices. That "old fashioned bootcamp" PC purchase got me a gaming PC with TEN TBs of fast SSD and 32GB or RAM for LESS than only the 8TB upgrade price of Apple SSD (alone... not counting the Mac or RAM). AAA gaming??? It's already thoroughly established on PCs... as are countless other great apps NOT available for Mac.
Go for it. I’m a proponent of bot with your $$$.
While I did NOT expect it at all for only $20, I've owned the "temporary" buds for 2 months now and they are at least as great in my objective opinion as the $169 APP2s they replaced. I consider that shocking as an Apple guy... but ears don't lie.
I have other “buds” also. And imo, there is a reason that apple airpods cost what they do. But that’s what make consumer choice so great. You can choose what’s best for you.
5+ years ago, my household looked like an Apple store. Now there's only some Apple stuff. Hopefully in 5 more there's still at least something Apple. The trend is not their friend in this microcosm. How to "fix" it? Show me more consumer value for the money... like it seemed up to about 2015-17 or so... when the Corp margin target was >7% lower than where it is in 2024. Maybe I'm alone in such thinking?
To wrap up years ago my household looked like a Microsoft Windows store. Today sadly the windows stores are closed and that is the metaphor for my household. Opposite of your experience.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,310
24,041
Gotta be in it to win it
If the activations are becoming less, then eventually MarketShare will tank. With it, the services revenue will also come down. I mean, if users do not have iPhones, how will they use the services? They're all related and hence the Apple shareholders are worried.
You have to look at how many active iPhone users there are Today over 2 billion. And those two billion some buy other products and services. Which apple shareholders are worried? Vanguard? Blackrock? Berkshire? State Street?
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,310
24,041
Gotta be in it to win it
There is no compelling reason for iPhone users to upgrade or for Android users to switch.

1. The first can happen when the iPhones last a long time. But users generally do not wait for their phone to conk out before replacing. They look at the new model and see what they are missing and update it because the new features are compelling. Newer models of iPhones do not give the existing users the incentive to upgrade.
2. Android users are not switching because they feel the iPhones are no longer offering a compelling reason to switch. Remember, Android to iPhone switching need not be for the latest model. An Android user who uses a 2022 phone may switch to iPhone 12 (or something similar) because it is now within their budget. Even those are activations. Looks like even that is not happening.


Android activations happen because the new phones have compelling features at all price points. So, if my budget was $300 (or whatve), I would upgrade to a phone in the $300 dollars because the new phones in that range have compelling features and therefore, I upgrade.
Taking a point in time and making some generalizations is sensationalized reporting. If I had a nickel for every “apple is doomed” conversation on MR, I’d be a member of the triple comma club.
 

Beautyspin

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2012
1,007
1,173
1) Notifications are not as good on iOS. Calling them a joke is childish.
2) I make my homescreen my own on iOS. I do not know what you’re
talking about here.
3) I prefer WebKit but this is once again personal preference.
4) File management is equal on both in my opinion.
5) I never cared about or desired a back button. It is redundant. Once again that is my opinion.

Nobody is captive to an ecosystem. That has always been an absurd claim. You have not achieved freedom with your phone. You have achieved phone ownership with your phone. The bottom line is everything you feel about your android is opinion. It is no different for how everyone else feels about their things. Thanks much for sharing things you like. Just remember that is all they are.
If you have bought a lot of apps costing hundreds of dollars, it is difficult to switch.
If you have air pods, iPads, Macs and an iPhone, then it is difficult to switch.
Not entirely Apple's fault, but there is an ecosystem lockdown. If Air pods, iPads, and Macs worked like generic systems (like Sony or other headphones) people might be more prone to shift.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,310
24,041
Gotta be in it to win it
If you have bought a lot of apps costing hundreds of dollars, it is difficult to switch.
Yes iPhone specific apps sure. But other apps such as the WSJ…depends. That is no different than pouring thousands of dollars of modifications into you car only to buy a new to find out you can’t take those mods with you.
If you have air pods, iPads, Macs and an iPhone, then it is difficult to switch.
A number of people claim they have a multiple vendor phone environment.
Not entirely Apple's fault, but there is an ecosystem lockdown. If Air pods, iPads, and Macs worked like generic systems (like Sony or other headphones) people might be more prone to shift.
If AirPods, iPads and Mac’s worked like generic systems there would be any market differentiation…would there? That is why iPhones take in the lost profits in the smartphone sector, even though other vendor allegedly trample iPhone with their specs.
 

Beautyspin

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2012
1,007
1,173
Yes iPhone specific apps sure. But other apps such as the WSJ…depends. That is no different than pouring thousands of dollars of modifications into you car only to buy a new to find out you can’t take those mods with you.

A number of people claim they have a multiple vendor phone environment.

If AirPods, iPads and Mac’s worked like generic systems there would be any market differentiation…would there? That is why iPhones take in the lost profits in the smartphone sector, even though other vendor allegedly trample iPhone with their specs.
None of which I disputed. However, they're facts. If I had been in Apple's ecosystem, I would have bought a lot of apps. I could be on a family share for some which may not include Android apps even if they are there on Android. Some Apps have to be repurchased when you move to Android. Some apps work differently on iOS than on Android. However, apprehension stops people from switching. It took me years to switch from Android to iPhone (that too my son's iPhone 11 in 2023). Good thing I did not go for the 15. Now I can go for the 16 directly as it is an upgrade from the 11. However, I lost a lot of purchases and the data in them, when I switched. I was okay with this cost.
 

Beautyspin

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2012
1,007
1,173
Taking a point in time and making some generalizations is sensationalized reporting. If I had a nickel for every “apple is doomed” conversation on MR, I’d be a member of the triple comma club.
Oh! I never said Apple is doomed. As long as there are staunch supporters who support Apple blindly, they are not going to be doomed. Even if they price a polishing cloth at a ridiculous $20.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,310
24,041
Gotta be in it to win it
None of which I disputed. However, they're facts. If I had been in Apple's ecosystem, I would have bought a lot of apps. I could be on a family share for some which may not include Android apps even if they are there on Android. Some Apps have to be repurchased when you move to Android. Some apps work differently on iOS than on Android. However, apprehension stops people from switching. It took me years to switch from Android to iPhone (that too my son's iPhone 11 in 2023). Good thing I did not go for the 15. Now I can go for the 16 directly as it is an upgrade from the 11. However, I lost a lot of purchases and the data in them, when I switched. I was okay with this cost.
Facts. Reminds me of the saying lies, damn lies and statistics. Everyone is different. I just got the 15, I may go for the 16. We’ll see.
 

Beautyspin

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2012
1,007
1,173
You have to look at how many active iPhone users there are Today over 2 billion. And those two billion some buy other products and services. Which apple shareholders are worried? Vanguard? Blackrock? Berkshire? State Street?
Everyone. Apple shares have fallen 12% so far this year, and they trade 14% below their all-time high.


However, several analysts are still bullish about the stock hoping that their AI push will do the trick.
 

Beautyspin

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2012
1,007
1,173
In business, that may be the case, but reality looks different. Prices haven't just increased at Apple, and I wouldn't be surprised if they rise again this year, given our current recession. What isn't getting more expensive?

Additionally, I believe that the fact fewer iPhones are being purchased isn't a problem. It's actually quite good... durability and reliability.

It's too easy to always focus on the obvious.
So, when Apple sales had been increasing all these years, was it because iPhones were not durable and reliable? Why have they suddenly become durable and reliable in 2024? Any insights? :)
 

Beautyspin

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2012
1,007
1,173
Facts. Reminds me of the saying lies, damn lies and statistics. Everyone is different. I just got the 15, I may go for the 16. We’ll see.
15 to 16 looks like an upgrade but from 14 to 15, I am not sure. I do not have one so I cannot say. My son is quite sure that he will not even entertain upgrading to 15 to 16.
 
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