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Sarbun96

Suspended
Original poster
Jul 12, 2020
119
115
I've decided to get out of the Apple ecosystem once and for all. The move to Apple silicon was the final nail in the coffin for me.

I was always happy to live with Apple's limitations, such as the closed app store, the whole non repairable device thing and even the amount of money I spent on USB-C adapters over the years. Usually, they weren't so bad and using Apple services made everything work together beautifully, in a way that you could never dream on Windows without paying a fortune to various third parties and even then, it'd not be the same..

But in the past year I've been using Windows 10 heavily at work. I've been using Office / OneDrive / SharePoint / OneNote in particular and the flexibility and amount of work I can do on the browser, as well in 'full featured', almost 'messy' but packed to the brim with tools, menu bars and features that can seriously boost productivity / speed of working versus what I personally preferred and enjoyed on the Mac: bare, simple and minimal UI design. I started to feel like I was missing out.

I have some fears for the future of using the Mac and the Apple ecosystem. While I don't mind the closed ecosystem on iPad and iPhone, the same thing held me back when trying to get real work done on my iPad: lack of the good old full featured desktop apps, and in rare cases where a quality iPad centric app existed (e.g. Shapr 3D instead of SketchUp for CAD) it cost an absolute fortune, and felt like wearing oven gloves to do a waterpainting frankly. It crashed too when the going got ... not even that tough. And the annual subscription after the trial is way above what anybody who isn't using it to make a living could afford. This was the case with many, many apps to 'get things done' on iPad. Why is this relevant? Because I fear this is where the Mac is going when it moves to Apple chips. x86 apps will be broken overnight, not all developers will re-write for it, those who do might charge a fortune for a subscription. Maybe they will only be able to do so via the App Store... so it's not certain yet, but my next couple of thousand won't be spent on the current 'DOA' Intel stuff which we think Apple might drop in a matter of years. And I'm just not so sure the Macs future is where I want my computing to go - even Rene Ritchie admitted that now, Mac users will just need to have other devices around to do certain things.

I miss Apple when it's an underdog. When it did everything to add to the experience to grab us from the Windows world. It worked on me. But many of the delights: MagSafe, running Windows ("the only computer you'll ever need") and other things like the glowing Apple logo and startup chime have been ignored mostly - sure they're not important, but those features, even things like the Apple Store's metal walls are all just a memory now. Just to reiterate, these are my personal reasons / thoughts on leaving.

Microsoft on the other hand, and Windows. Well, they're like Apple was back then - they're doing everything they can now with their services (Outlook / Office / OneDrive) to make their apps 'good citizens' on all platforms. Now that I've moved to a cheap PC for the time being, my iPhone still sticks around but the Microsoft apps are working a charm surprisingly. There's feedback buttons everywhere in Windows 10. I last used it in 2017 and it left a bad taste in my mouth but things have improved. They seem to have an excitement update with shiny features twice a year too. And the hardware. Well, the choice is overwhelming initially but having enjoyed an iPad but missed a full computer, I'm starting to see the beauty in the 2-in-1 sort of devices that I once laughed at as a loyal Mac fan. Microsoft seems to not be an underdog by any means, but it's actively pushing to try and... dare I say delight? No, to meet the needs of its users based on what they're saying in feedback. It's evolving - but practically. Windows 10 still pretty much looks the same as 2015, but I can say for sure it's working a lot better year over year. The Mac updates haven't really given me that feeling since Mavericks.

Perhaps this is too long a rant, but I've read a few similar ones on here in this section. Suddenly now I'm getting a tonne of planning and designing done using OneNote. Wherever an idea strikes, be it when I'm working, out and about or on my own PC, I can open the app and it's synced and it's less fussy than any iOS or Mac app I've used for journaling - just drop it in and that's it. No fuss.

It's been a few weeks of Windows now and to be honest I'm not looking back like I was worried I might. I made a decision to stick with this cheap £100 laptop I got from work. It's a big, dumb 15.6" HD screen plastic, but full sized keyboard laptop with W10 Pro, an i3 6th Gen and had 4GB RAM / 500GB spinning drive. I spent another £100 on a Crucial 500GB SSD, 16GB of RAM and you know what? This thing is no workstation but it's fast, responsive, plays Minecraft the odd time, comfortable to use, the battery is shockingly good at lasting for hours on end, and even a few hours of Minecraft running.... I haven't decided whether I'll go for a 2-in-1 or a gaming laptop next year but so long as I can stick out Windows 10 for that amount of time, I think I'm officially back on the Windows side of the fence.

Now if they'd only release the Surface Duo here in the UK that'd be my next purchase.... but until then it's farewell Apple, old friend, it's been a great journey but now it's time to part ways.
 

Madhatter32

macrumors 6502a
Apr 17, 2020
587
1,333
Sounds like you went the sensible and cost efficient route. You'll have plenty of time to reassess once the silicon Macs are released and you can see if your concerns were justified or not. All I can say if software support is limited and MacOS becomes a version of iPadOS, I think a lot of power users will eventually follow your lead. On the other hand, the silicon Macs may be transformative for the company in terms of compatibility across a large ecosystem and power efficiency -- so they may be worth a try at some point. I plan on giving it try myself but I have concerns as well.
 
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Sarbun96

Suspended
Original poster
Jul 12, 2020
119
115
Cheers. Sounds like you made the right decision for you personally. None of us really care. Use what you want.

That's a lot of words to say you're going to buy a different computer. I don't really understand the need to either justify it to yourself or to others.

It's a computer. Use the one you want.

God, it's like you guys don't get the whole 'discussion' aspect of online forums / message boards... *eyeroll*
 

Sarbun96

Suspended
Original poster
Jul 12, 2020
119
115
Sounds like you went the sensible and cost efficient route. You'll have plenty of time to reassess once the silicon Macs are released and you can see if your concerns were justified or not. All I can say if software support is limited and MacOS becomes a version of iPadOS, I think a lot of power users will eventually follow your lead. On the other hand, the silicon Macs may be transformative for the company in terms of compatibility across a large ecosystem and power efficiency -- so they may be worth a try at some point. I plan on giving it try myself but I have concerns as well.

That's it, I'm not rushing into anything too fast. I know Apple should know better than to try something like that at risk of alienating it's power / pro users, but given they've successfully pulled off removing ports and other things in recent years while growing and doing great as a company, I feel like they've got the confidence they need to try it. And 'most people' won't care I guess.

I think it's good that there's people so excited though, as their experience with the new Macs will be good for our decision making.
 

Sarbun96

Suspended
Original poster
Jul 12, 2020
119
115
A computer is a tool. Just use the tool the most fit for the job.
Probably there will come some religious fanatic/fanboy who will declare you bonkers in this thread, but not me ;)

Haha, what, you mean my long emotional post about parting with my best friend (my old Mac) is too far fetched?! ;-)

Lol, it's true. They're just tools / objects. but here we all are talking about them to no ends :p
 

Allyance

Contributor
Sep 29, 2017
1,348
4,039
East Bay, CA
I had my own computer/networking business for 20 years, sold and setup many PC's and servers in my local area. In the business world, Windows and PC's ruled. Apple was never a consideration mainly because they wouldn't setup small vendors as resellers. Dell even had a white box program for us, worked great, good service. All the non-profits and business offices I setup were all Windows/Office based. When I retired, I decided to learn the Apple systems because the iPhone was so great. For the home the Apple ecosystem is great, for businesses large and small, PC's and Windows is the way to go.
 

LeeW

macrumors 68030
Feb 5, 2017
2,811
5,425
Glasgow, Scotland
I don't really understand the need to either justify it to yourself or to others.

I never read that, what I read was the story of someone explaining why they can't support Apple any more. Many feel the same for similar or other reasons.

None of us really care
Actually, we do, what we don't care about is your post.
 

GalileoSeven

macrumors 6502
Jan 3, 2015
351
540
A computer is a tool. Just use the tool the most fit for the job.
Probably there will come some religious fanatic/fanboy who will declare you bonkers in this thread, but not me ;)

This pretty much sums it up. Sometimes people's needs/use cases change and by extension they need a different tool for the job. No need to feel bad about your 'long, emotional post' lol :)
 

The_Interloper

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2016
578
1,253
I'm also nervously awaiting the AS announcement. What Apple choose to do will determine the entire future of the Mac platform. Intel is dead on the Mac now, that's for sure; not that things will suddenly stop working, but in the long term x86 is over. What the future of the Mac looks like will lead to me having to make some tough choices.
  • Will everything be as/more expensive than now? Probably.
  • Will everything be soldered in - RAM, SSD etc - even on desktops (iMac, Mac mini)?
  • Will there be any support for eGPUs?
  • Will the Mac App Store eventually become a closed platform like iOS?
  • Will the performance be significantly better than Intel/AMD (especially on desktop)?
So many questions. Losing x86/Windows/VM compatability is already a major issue for me; the rest of the way AS shakes out will probably either see me dive in or get out for good.
 

chabig

macrumors G3
Sep 6, 2002
8,565
5,769
  • Will everything be as/more expensive than now? Probably.
  • Will everything be soldered in - RAM, SSD etc - even on desktops (iMac, Mac mini)?
  • Will there be any support for eGPUs?
  • Will the Mac App Store eventually become a closed platform like iOS?
  • Will the performance be significantly better than Intel/AMD (especially on desktop)?
All good questions. My expected answers are:

- Probably the same prices. I see no reason to expect price increases.
- I expect most components to remain soldered as today, with the exception of desktop RAM.
- I expect external GPU support to continue, though most users won't care because Apple's GPU will be very good.
- No. Mac will never become a closed platform.
- Yes. I expect performance at the top end to be significantly better than Intel. At the low end, performance per watt will be significantly better but Apple will use that margin to improve battery life.

I think there are plenty of inexpensive Windows machines for people who need Windows and Intel compatibility. If both operating systems matter, keep two machines. If I could only afford one machine, I'd always pick Mac over Windows.
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
14,544
615
Lard
I haven't seen anything yet. I wouldn't know whether I would want to stop using a Mac or not, given that I know absolutely zero.

That said, I use Windows 10 and macOS Catalina right now. As long as they're not broken, I can use either one. I could probably use ChromeOS, if necessary, but it would have to be that nothing else was available.
 

LeeW

macrumors 68030
Feb 5, 2017
2,811
5,425
Glasgow, Scotland
I think many are preparing only to be disappointed soon. There is too much of a common view on the forums that AS is going to blow intel/AMD out of the water in terms of performance. That is not going to happen, maybe in time but not in the early stages.

That said, I do see some significant opportunities with AS, that being the ability to more tightly and effectively integrate all Apple devices across the entire range, which includes software compatibility.

We should expect to see performance increases that come naturally from the reduction or elimination of thermal throttling too often seen on the current range of laptops. A cooler system should mean a longer-lasting one that is much more suited to clamshell use.

Longer battery life is going to be welcome by all, but it will be interesting to see just how much longer. Welcome all the same.

Rosetta 2 Whilst good that it will be available has to have a knock-on effect on performance, this is not the same as PPC to Intel. But if it's workable until apps are developed properly then it may well do as a 'getting by' option for all the software that needs to go through that translation layer.

In years to come, I anticipate saying that Apple was right to do this as many others follow and ARM adoption in mainstream computing becomes more popular.

Lots of ifs and lots of buts :)
 
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maflynn

Moderator
Staff member
May 3, 2009
68,621
36,358
Boston
There is too much of a common view on the forums that AS is going to blow intel/AMD out of the water in terms of performance. That is not going to happen, maybe in time but not in the early stages.
Here's my thoughts, I agree so many people here expect to see better performance out of the Ax processor, and that's been backed up by benchmarks and comparing the performance of existing Ax processors against the intel processors. So I think its reasonable to think that we will see better performance.

Also consider that Apple is going to highly tune the OS to fully work with the Ax and they wouldn't be releasing something that's a step back.

There's certainty going to be teething problems and the first gen may be problematic but overall I don't think its going to cause mass disappointment - at least not from the many people here who bend over backwards defending apple
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
5,702
6,356
I think many are preparing only to be disappointed soon. There is too much of a common view on the forums that AS is going to blow intel/AMD out of the water in terms of performance. That is not going to happen, maybe in time but not in the early stages.

That said, I do see some significant opportunities with AS, that being the ability to more tightly and effectively integrate all Apple devices across the entire range, which includes software compatibility.

We should expect to see performance increases that come naturally from the reduction or elimination of thermal throttling too often seen on the current range of laptops. A cooler system should mean a longer-lasting one that is much more suited to clamshell use.

Longer battery life is going to be welcome by all, but it will be interesting to see just how much longer. Welcome all the same.

Rosetta 2 Whilst good that it will be available has to have a knock-on effect on performance, this is not the same as PPC to Intel. But if it's workable until apps are developed properly then it may well do as a 'getting by' option for all the software that needs to go through that translation layer.

In years to come, I anticipate saying that Apple was right to do this as many others follow and ARM adoption in mainstream computing becomes more popular.

Lots of ifs and lots of buts :)
Certainly at the low end, that's absolutely going to happen. In MacBook/ MacBook Air style enclosures, they already have a chip in the A12Z that can perform better sans-fan than the $1,299 MacBook Pro model. I would say that's anything Intel/ AMD have to offer in this specific market segment well and truly sunk.

For middle of the range computing up into high performance territory, we haven't really seen what Apple can do yet, other than the merest suggestion that their existing low power chips can do the same level of work the hot running and power hungry Intel H series chips can. I agree caution on extrapolating that, but it works both ways, dismissing it all as a fantasy before Tuesday makes it all a reality is premature.
 

Madhatter32

macrumors 6502a
Apr 17, 2020
587
1,333
Certainly at the low end, that's absolutely going to happen. In MacBook/ MacBook Air style enclosures, they already have a chip in the A12Z that can perform better sans-fan than the $1,299 MacBook Pro model. I would say that's anything Intel/ AMD have to offer in this specific market segment well and truly sunk.

For middle of the range computing up into high performance territory, we haven't really seen what Apple can do yet, other than the merest suggestion that their existing low power chips can do the same level of work the hot running and power hungry Intel H series chips can. I agree caution on extrapolating that, but it works both ways, dismissing it all as a fantasy before Tuesday makes it all a reality is premature.
Yes this is true. But I think that Apple's ultimate success with AS is going to be determined on how the middle and top range performs against x/86 machines. People buy power even if they use their device for just surfing the web. I may be wrong about this but I think that many people want the potential to do great things ... or otherwise want a machine they "can grow into" so to speak.
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
5,702
6,356
Yes this is true. But I think that Apple's ultimate success with AS is going to be determined on how the middle and top range performs against x/86 machines. People buy power even if they use their device for just surfing the web. I may be wrong about this but I think that many people want the potential to do great things ... or otherwise want a machine they "can grow into" so to speak.
Perhaps, although if Apple's cheapest computer is as competent as a much more powerful Windows alternative or Intel Mac, I don't think most people will look much further? If the MacBook Air is marketed as more powerful than the Intel Pro, as I'm sure it will be if that proves to be true, Apple will need to make more room over it to convince people to buy the Pro. The main differentiator might end up being non-CPU features though, such as the display (P3, ProMotion?) and probably graphics power (HD vs Iris has always been a dividing line between the Air and Pro with Intel).
 

LeeW

macrumors 68030
Feb 5, 2017
2,811
5,425
Glasgow, Scotland
Tuesday itself won't reveal anything really, only what Apple choreograph, benchmarks are meh. Until we have them in our hand's performance will not be truly known. I will be ordering one to see for myself.
 

maflynn

Moderator
Staff member
May 3, 2009
68,621
36,358
Boston
Tuesday itself won't reveal anything really, only what Apple choreograph,
Of course, but then that's not an apple thing and more about general marketing approach that all companies do. They'll be casting the new Macs in the best possible light but not for nothing when they make certain promises, like X times faster then prior models, I think we can get some ideas. I'm less down on the ARM transition as I was, but its certainly not for me. I need a windows/x86 platform and in all honesty, I'm less impressed with macOS, as it seems to have more issues then its worth
 

retta283

Cancelled
Jun 8, 2018
2,846
2,894
Victoria, British Columbia
I'm coming closer to a mixed ecosystem as time goes on. I like Apple and loved them for many years, but I am seeing it to be likely that I will slowly move away with time. Apple silicon Macs will most likely not work for my business so for work it will be a move to Windows. To reach parity with my work system, I will shift my home computers to Windows as well.

Will probably stay with the iPhone for the foreseeable future though. I don't use iCloud or anything else, I just prefer iOS to Android. I like my iPad too and will probably keep using it for a while. We'll see what's available when my 2018 is coming to the end of its life, if they don't ruin the product/OS I will buy another.

I see myself in the next year or two as being on Windows desktops, and Apple mobile devices. I do not use laptops regularly.
 
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