Another Mac port gets cancelled due to Apple's poor graphics support

[Janichsan]

...windows games are written using DX so in order to makes those games playable in mac they need to be rewritten , that’s what i understand that a port is, feel free to correct me if i’m wrong but if you write the game using vulcan that means that the game doesn’t need to be rewritten because they are using the same api, ...

That's a massive oversimplification. Games (and other applications) consist of more than just the graphics API calls, so no matter what, there are still parts that have to be rewritten. You are correct of course that usage of a crossplatform API like Vulkan of OpenGL would make things much easier, but there's more involved than that.

... of course you need a vulcan compatible card , a weak old card is not going to work because it doesn’t have support for shaders instructions etc, so this where the hardware topic comes in...

In fast, every GPU used in a Mac for the last couple of years is ready for Vulkan. Vulkan has been specified to work on every DirectX 11/OpenGL 4.x compatible GPU.

something very important that i almost forgot to mentioned is the performance problem in ports
so no ports means no performance drop in games, that's another reason why games run slower on macs because they are ports , so we can't really blame everything on the poor macs, vulcan can fix all that

And that's just incorrect, plain and simple. Even if the current generation of graphic APIs (Vulkan, Metal, DirectX 12) have been specifically developed to allow directer access to the hardware, drivers and the actual implementation in the OS still play an important role. If these are lacking, you still will have performance differences. Vulkan does not "fix all that".

 

[Cougarcat]

Hey, whenever you get the upgrade itch, I'll take your current rig off your hands.

Do you bootcamp?

Hah. It's actually nothing spectacular: An original i5 OC'd to 4.0 Ghz (six years old at this point!) with a GTX 970, but it's more than enough for 1080p. Still blows anything Apple provides out of the water, thanks to the GPU. I probably won't upgrade until whenever the second generation of VR hits.

I do do bootcamp, but I find myself booting into it less and less lately. Not too many AAA games are holding my interest these days. In the last year, I've just used it for The Witcher 3 and The Witness (the latter of which is coming to OS X at some point).

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Even with a 980Ti, OSX just plain sucks

http://barefeats.com/razer_core.html

 

[Irishman]

I wonder if the Razer GPU expander chassis can be used in OS X eGPU projects? It's $499, has enough power (500 watt psu) and looks kick-ass. TB 3 is backwards compatible with TB 1, I think. But all that's useless for me if it's tied into Razer hardware only.

Hmmm....

 

[Janichsan]

I wonder if the Razer GPU expander chassis can be used in OS X eGPU projects? It's $499, has enough power (500 watt psu) and looks kick-ass. TB 3 is backwards compatible with TB 1, I think. But all that's useless for me if it's tied into Razer hardware only.

Hmmm....

They used it with a classic Mac Pro in the BareFeats benchmarks, so...

 

[Irishman]

They used it with a classic Mac Pro in the BareFeats benchmarks, so...

I didn't read that in the article.

 

[Tucom]

They used it with a classic Mac Pro in the BareFeats benchmarks, so...

cMP has no Thunderbolt, what you probably misread was it was compared to a cMP running a 980 Ti.

 

[iamtheonlyone4ever]

Even with a 980Ti, OSX just plain sucks

http://barefeats.com/razer_core.html

exactly because the software is limiting the hardware , that is what i was trying to say and explain before , but people say that hardware don't have nothing to do with it , even putting a strong GPU won't change things that much because the software is using older versions of OpenGL and OpenCL, but people without the hardware will never know or find out, and like a said before with a weaker GPU is even worse, this is why ports are being cancelled
[doublepost=1464543679][/doublepost]

That's a massive oversimplification. Games (and other applications) consist of more than just the graphics API calls, so no matter what, there are still parts that have to be rewritten. You are correct of course that usage of a crossplatform API like Vulkan of OpenGL would make things much easier, but there's more involved than that.

i agree but i never said that it was just that , i know there is a lot more involved , i'm trying to stick to the topic and if i try to explain everything i will never finish , if i try to explain too much thing will get overcomplicated, we will always missed parts that can be explain later , when people start bringing the topic to discuss


In fast, every GPU used in a Mac for the last couple of years is ready for Vulkan. Vulkan has been specified to work on every DirectX 11/OpenGL 4.x compatible GPU.

i agree i did say that it requires a compatible card , meaning modern , i didn't say that it has to be a brand new a card purchased or made in 2016, the same thing happened with dx12 new cards are supported and some other cards not so new will be supported , others cards will be partially supported or others not supported at all


And that's just incorrect, plain and simple. Even if the current generation of graphic APIs (Vulkan, Metal, DirectX 12) have been specifically developed to allow directer access to the hardware, drivers and the actual implementation in the OS still play an important role. If these are lacking, you still will have performance differences. Vulkan does not "fix all that".

ok here is the part where i respectfully disagree with you , so you are telling that there is no performance hit when you port a game from 1 platform to another. maybe i'm missing something or you are confusing me because i don't speak english 100% or you don't understand what i'm trying to say.

ok after reading a 2nd time if what you're saying is that if we still have old outdated drivers in osx, "OpenGL-OpenCL" vulcan or metal won't be able to perform the way it should because of that, but that is not vulcan fault , that is apple fault , apple have 2 options either update the software or change completely to the new software "Metal-Vulcan" and don't use the old software anymore
[doublepost=1464545420][/doublepost]benchmark a video card in windows using cine bench or unigine valley then run the same bench in osx and tell which one perform better and why , the video cards in osx will always perform from 30 up to 40% less in osx , as much as i hate to admit it

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

exactly because the software is limiting the hardware , that is what i was trying to say and explain before , but people say that hardware don't have nothing to do with it , even putting a strong GPU won't change things that much because the software is using older versions of OpenGL and OpenCL, but people without the hardware will never know or find out, and like a said before with a weaker GPU is even worse, this is why ports are being cancelled

I try to tell people that in the Mac Pro forum for months and they just don't want to accept it. They just start with personal attacks instead of sticking to the topic. But then, some of those people are selling hardware and need to convince people that buying upgrades will make everything wonderfully better.

 

[iamtheonlyone4ever]

baila bamba, ok i see, thanks for telling me that, now i know what i'm up against, maybe they think that we are in some way attacking apple, let' me just set the record straight, i love apple and i hate windows, i fight all my windows friends and tell them how magnificent and beautiful mac os really is, but let's try to be realistic, when it comes to the games topic, unfortunately this is a battle we just can't win, why? because apple don't even want to compete, apple computers are pretty much capable of running this games but if apple don't want their costumers to play games, then why do they sell games in the app store, i will like to see rise of tomb raider in the app store, how long will that take if it ever happens. i'm not in any way attacking apple i'm just sad because i consider osx to be the best os in the world and we can't play good games when they come out, i really hate windows and i hate being force to install it and use it to play games because i can't play those games in osx. having those same games in osx and i will never use or install windows never ever again

 

[koyoot]

The only thing currently that holds back Apple hardware is software. However, look at HLSL and Direct3D12, and Shader Model 6.0. This is absolutely next gen software that comes out. If Apple will not support any of this Open Source initiatives it is pretty much over for this platform.

P.S. SoyCapitan, read this post and compare it to situation with one particular person on this forum: http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=263887&postcount=1489

Fottemberg is not any anonymous person on anonymous forum. He is tech journalist. He knows what he is talking about.

 

[Janichsan]

cMP has no Thunderbolt, what you probably misread was it was compared to a cMP running a 980 Ti.

You're right, I misread that. My bad.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

The only thing currently that holds back Apple hardware is software. However, look at HLSL and Direct3D12, and Shader Model 6.0. This is absolutely next gen software that comes out. If Apple will not support any of this Open Source initiatives it is pretty much over for this platform.

P.S. SoyCapitan, read this post and compare it to situation with one particular person on this forum: http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=263887&postcount=1489

Fottemberg is not any anonymous person on anonymous forum. He is tech journalist. He knows what he is talking about.

You know how many months I have been trying to raise the situation about how weak the web drivers and Apple's APIs are. You saw how they always try to divert the topic to start talking about my credibility. It's like a mini-cult on the Mac Pro board and that's probably why people are scared to report bugs so they go to other forums to talk about issues with Nvidia's drivers and OSX's performance. They can't be bothered with the egos and personal attacks.

 

[iamtheonlyone4ever]

wow, unbelievable, what a hostile crowd, what i got myself into, they even dare to attack your credibility, unfortunately that's how things are in most of these forums, we try to help and share our knowledge and if they don't agreed with our point of view or our opinion, if it doesn't fit their believe system, then we are attack like who are we or what do we know. but don't worry you are not alone i support you analogy, because i have experienced exactly the same problem that you have and i have come to the same conclusion, i use nvidia web drivers and i know exactly what you mean.
all we want is have the same level of GPU performance that we have in windows using the same hardware, except that we want that in OS X
example if i hit 200 fps in a windows game using windows, i want 200 fps in mac OS X using the same GPU using the same game using the same settings, not 100 to 120 fps, that is unacceptable, if is the same game and the same graphic card with the same settings. but here is the big difference.
in OS X we only have OpenGL 4.1 and OpenCL 1.2
while in Windows we have OpenGL 4.5 and OpenCL 2.1

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202823

https://www.khronos.org/opengl/

https://www.khronos.org/opencl/

i hope apple fixes the older OCL OGL versions
so we can play games in mac and the companies don't have to cancelled ports

 

[koyoot]

You know how many months I have been trying to raise the situation about how weak the web drivers and Apple's APIs are. You saw how they always try to divert the topic to start talking about my credibility. It's like a mini-cult on the Mac Pro board and that's probably why people are scared to report bugs so they go to other forums to talk about issues with Nvidia's drivers and OSX's performance. They can't be bothered with the egos and personal attacks.

The problem with Nvidia Drivers is not only on OS X front. Crashes, bugs, problems. That is on a daily basis my life with GTX 980, and drivers for it both on Windows 10 and Linux. This is first time in my life where I have problems with drivers. I have used to this day only Nvidia hardware.

On this forum there is very strong Nvidia defense front. Be aware of it. Or simply ignore. But this is absolutely off-topic to this thread.

In Mac Pro forum, in MP 2016 thread we discuss lately the technology that is available, and the direction where it should take. How outdated OS X looks as a whole platform to what currently emerges is beyond belief! I do not know why Apple stalled, the development of the platform? Maybe they are preparing something new, that is completely non-compatible with previous versions of both hardware and OS X? I would not be completely shocked if that would be the case.

Key factors to watch are: VR, HSA, scalability and efficiency.

 

[iamtheonlyone4ever]

i am a nvidia owner but when something is wrong is wrong, it doesn't matter if is a company that i like, i do not let fanaticism cloud my judgement, i give you a very good example and almost everybody knows about this by now, i bought 2 nvidia 970 for my pc so i can do SLI, the cards were announced as 4gb cards and what happened, they were really 3 1/2 gb we all know the story by now, what i'm trying to say is that i am realistic and if something is true there is no reason to deny it, nvidia failed me there at that time, but some people will not accept the truth even when you showed them proof something so obvious that is staring them right in their face, they simply live in denial, i really hope that is the case that OS 12 will set us free, and is really a shame that OS X is falling so far behind in this specific aspect about the GPU software, but maybe is what you mentioned, that they are working on something better something new, i really hope so, but another problem is the time that it will take for game developers to start using that technology, how many OS X games are Metal ready, the same goes for DX12 and how long they been out, so how long we have to wait for game developers so we can start using Metal ready games, so for me having something that i can't use is like not having nothing at all, because i can't use it.

 

[Irishman]

all we want is have the same level of GPU performance that we have in windows using the same hardware, except that we want that in OS X
example if i hit 200 fps in a windows game using windows, i want 200 fps in mac OS X using the same GPU using the same game using the same settings, not 100 to 120 fps, that is unacceptable, if is the same game and the same graphic card with the same settings. but here is the big difference.

I get your overall point here, and share it, but I don't agree with the example you gave. A game on two platforms that get 100 to 200 fps isn't a problem for either, because they're both immensely playable and enjoyable. An example that would have helped you make your point would be this:

A game in Windows that plays at 60 fps is great. The same game in OS X that plays at 30 fps on the same hardware is unacceptable.

 

[iamtheonlyone4ever]

ok let me see if i can explain better this time
i was talking about the overall benchmark results instead of just the playable 60 fps in games
i know games over 60 fps are playable but the example that i wanted to give is exactly what you say, i didn't explain good enough but you figure out exactly what i wanted to say
i did thought about the 60 fps example when i was driving back home, i knew that i should it have use 60 fps example better to avoid any confusion
but i was talking about benchmark results, like when you run the benchmark in tomb raider 2013 , since i have the game in both systems
but yes what you say is what i wanted to say , if i get 60 fps in a game in windows then i will only get 20 to 30 fps in OS X that is unacceptable because is unplayable.
but that don't happen to me because i go over 60 fps in mac games and over 100+ in windows, depending on the game and in the settings
using a single GPU in windows i get like 200 in tomb raider 2013 in 1080 but using the same settings with the same resolution in mac i get like 100 something i don't remember exactly i will have to run the "game benchmark" again maybe tomorrow, but that's what i meant about unacceptable the big difference in performance between one system and the other of course the game is still playable because is over 60 fps but the system has about half of the performance power compared to windows, look i put single GPU because OS X don't support SLI but if i bench using 2 GPUS it goes even higher but then is not a fair test , that's why i said single GPU , 1 vs 1
i understand they are both different system i can deal with 10 or 20 up to 40 or 50 less frames but half of the frames is way too much, people have to overclock their pcs to death just to get some extra frames , like 10 more frames and yet OS X drop frames like crazy

 

[iamtheonlyone4ever]

Tomb Raider 2013

1920 X 1080

Preset Normal

V-Sync = Off - For Benchmark Purposes

All Settings Are The Same In Both Games

Single GPU El Capitan 10.11.5

Min 71.6

Max 186.5

Avg 141.8

Single GPU Windows 10 Pro X64

Min 228.0

Max 342.0

Avg 289.7

Dual GPU SLI Windows 10 Pro X64

Min 368.0

Max 612.0

Avg 493.0

I’m Not Overclocking , I’m Using Normal Default Clock Speed

If I Overclock It Will Go Higher

I Will Run Another Benchmark Test Tomorrow Using High And Ultra Preset

 

[Phoenixx]

The major problem I see here is that when a Mac is benchmarked using OS X, and then started up in Windows 10 under Bootcamp and benchmarked again, the better results are got under Windows.

A long standing excuse from Apple regarding the low hardware specs they have chosen for their machines is that OS X is optimised for the hardware. If this is the case, why does a Mac run Windows BETTER than its native OS?

Something just isn't right here. It seems to me that the REAL reason the specs are lower, is so that Apple can get tech that is years old at cheaper prices and make bigger profit margins making out of date computers, because it clearly doesn't have anything to do with optimisation.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

This is how efficient OpenGL is on Windows.

The new Doom, Ultra settings, and 1080p, running on a measly old GTX 680 2GB. Average frame rates between 50-60FPS.

The GTX 1070 gets about 120FPS

 

[iamtheonlyone4ever]

If this is the case, why does a Mac run Windows BETTER than its native OS?

yes but the same can be said for a hackintosh, in my hackintosh mac os x runs faster than windows, a hackintosh is a pc running mac os x in "windows pc" hardware, i ran all kind of benchmarks the only time windows wins is in Graphics performance, my 4520 rocket raid card runs a lot faster in mac os than in windows but think that has to do with the file system, i tried just about everything and mac always wins by an avg of 1 more gbps, if i get 4 gbps in osx i only get 3 gbps in windows, i do believe and feel that way, mac os is better optimized than windows, specially in the memory department, memory management is better in osx, i have 64 gigs of ram ddr4, osx GUI is beautiful windows GUI is super ugly, Windows 10 ugly + buggy = buggly, using cinebench the cpu test runs about the same is a draw there
i have no complaint about mac os x except for the GPU problem and disk utility in El Capitan, but there are some good cool games in OS X that i enjoy playing, the problem is with the next generation computer graphics games.

 

[Dirtyharry50]

I love Mac computers. I really do. However, these past four years have brought home to me that as someone who loves playing games I just cannot get the complete access to all the experiences I want in one computer that does it all the way I once could with a Windows computer. The thing is, in my opinion the Windows computer does one thing really well and that's the games. Meantime the Mac does everything else much better in my own opinion in concert with other Apple devices I own. So there's the quandary right there. I do not see it changing so I accept it and plan accordingly.

My own plan involves adding Playstation consoles into the mix. Somebody else might want to do something else but that opens up a lot of stuff to me in a way that works well for me personally. So I can only encourage anyone who might feel frustrated with the limitations owning a Mac puts on gaming to consider how to supplement what you've got to play with because thinking Macs are ever going to offer what Windows boxes or consoles do for AAA access is I think just fantasy. I won't even go on about why. It just is and I think you guys probably know this too considering history and the present state of affairs. So why fret about it? Why not just cook up what works great for you instead?

 

[iamtheonlyone4ever]

right now playing a game called LUMO, i get you point but why should i get a console when we got a monster computer that can run games at 4k when consoles struggle at 1080, i do agree about having everything in one package meaning a computer to do everything including gaming, there are games in mac , good games , the problem is apple , if they fix the software then we can play more games in mac , game developers won't have to cancel ports and also we will have more games to play because game developers will start making more games for OS X but since the limitation problem exist, that's why they don't even bother to make games for OS X, we are not asking to make something new that doesn't already exist, all we want is to try to fix it "improve it" so we can have a better experience and we can finally use our computer for everything we need, the problem is not so much hardware because like we mentioned before putting a 980 in OS X won't help that much, a 980 can run basically all new games at high resolution and yet we will still have problems with a 980 in OS X because apple old software, all i want is apple software to be better, why people buy new and expensive hardware, so their computers can perform better and faster, nobody wants to pay 1,000 for a titan to run it at 25% to 50% at their maximum capacity, yes is a powerful card you can still play games at 60 fps but the point is that i'm getting half of the performance and when we increase quality and resolution we need all the performance power we can get, if apple want to they can offer almost the same level of gaming performance as windows. maybe one day apple decide to create a gaming console

 

[jeanlain]

The problem with Nvidia Drivers is not only on OS X front. Crashes, bugs, problems. That is on a daily basis my life with GTX 980, and drivers for it both on Windows 10 and Linux. This is first time in my life where I have problems with drivers. I have used to this day only Nvidia hardware.

The geforce 9XX are not sold with Macs, so don't expect good support. This makes any analysis of the Barefeats results irrelevant, unless you run a hack.