Anti-Bluray Drive *Having a Good Old Rant*

[revenuee]

If you people complain so much about the need for Blu-ray and don't care so much about price, try Pioneer's newly developed 400GB (I think..) optical disc.

http://www.macworld.com/article/134303/2008/07/pioneer.html?lsrc=mwweek

But, as someone mentioned, Blu-Ray is not for backups. It's for the next generation of HD video content. And right now, they are at least $300 for a blu-ray drive, and the discs are mighty expensive. As of right now, it's not price-effective. Maybe once it gets more popular and price drops below $200 I'll consider it. For one blu-ray disc, I could buy lots more dvds and store more data.

and this is the root of the disagreement I feel.

tri3limited (the OP) --- make any corrections you feel are needed.

I feel like the debate centered around an undefined time frame.

tri3limited presented that blue-ray is unnessary -- but I found much of the arguement centrered around a costs ... mainly the cost of blue-ray versus the cost of other storage mediums - and the cost of implementing it in your work flow, home, where ever -- it further went on to suggest that the cost of the drives would make the price sky rocket if it was placed into the the revisions of apple computers.

I have been making the argument that it's not an unnessary technology and that there are wide spread uses for it.

It seems that we have concluded that perhaps it is not blue-rays time, BUT to argue that blue-ray will have no place in our homes in the future is not something definite.

I think we have essentially resolved the debate and both are in agreement?

thoughts?

 

[sushi]

This reminds me of when records were replacing vinyl.

The vinyl diehards said that there was no way CDs were going to replace vinyl due to the sound quality. And here we are today, less than 30 years later and most folks are happy with songs DL'ed over the Internet.

Many times, convenience outweighs quality. Not sure if this will be true with BR vice SD video. We shall see.

 

[tri3limited]

I think this will largely depend on future internet speeds and what the top speed limit will be.

Whilst i agree that this appears to be a case of cost vs capacity debate at the moment, i still feel that the actual technology is an unnecessary bridge to fill the gap between storage mediums/media distribution techniques.

I cannot see Bluray lasting anywhere near as long as DVD or CD. Take for example the Japanese television industry, televisions are being produced with 2xHD at premium prices and far higher has been developed.

RED are not far from releasing their 5k camera (2009) which is well ahead of Bluray if studios are looking to use uncompressed film in the future (or at least avoid compressing it heavily). The 4k RED cam is already heavily used.

So whilst the debate has progressed towards costs so far, I don't see the technology as being long lasting for anything (except PS3 games themselves, and by the PS4 there will be a new medium again as with the PS[cd] and PS2[dvd]... hmmm a pattern emerging here!)

 

[revenuee]

I don't see the technology as being long lasting for anything (except PS3 games themselves, and by the PS4 there will be a new medium again as with the PS[cd] and PS2[dvd]... hmmm a pattern emerging here!)

And that I can't argue

I've already made the Laser Disk argument -- is there a trend?

in order of release times

CD (Made it), Laser Disk (Failed), DVD (Made it), Blue ray/HD DVD (Fail?), Next generation optical drive medium (Made it?)

we'll see ---

 

[tri3limited]

An example of the 5k resolution compared to HD.

Sorry i didnt really explain the pattern i spotted there.

The original Playstation used CD (a form of it atleast... not sure exactly)
The Playstation 2 used DVD
and the Playstation 3 is using Bluray... each time using the "mainstream" market format pre-established or not. All consoles are backward compatible as well.

I'm guessing that Bluray will probably be around for say 3-4 years by which time the PS4 will be available with a bigger media (games developers have already said 50GB isn't enough for HD audio and video in games). I'm guessing they'll have a huge say in that format, optical or otherwise (online store eliminating optical media?).

Anyone feel like Sony might have just planned on regular format changes that benefit it profit-wise rather than consumers? It's a bit of a coincidence that they're always on the right track... although that's probably why they're more successful than me!

 

[millar876]

+1 PRO BDR

I want BDR discs as a backup for my 1 TB External. now in DVD-Rs that would require some 235 odd DVDs +/- a few either way, for DVD-R DL or DVD-RAM thats still arround 120 Discs as apposed to the 20-22 BD-R's (50 GB) that would take. no argument.

*edit* where i wrote backup READ archival backup, only burning a new disc when 50 GB of new data has been added *edit* I use the Ext-HD for my movies TV shows ect and stream them oner 802.11n to my PS3 and 360.

I also use a 500GB Raid aray (2x500GB via FW400) as my time machine drive.

 

[revenuee]

An example of the 5k resolution compared to HD.

Sorry i didnt really explain the pattern i spotted there.

The original Playstation used CD (a form of it atleast... not sure exactly)
The Playstation 2 used DVD
and the Playstation 3 is using Bluray... each time using the "mainstream" market format pre-established or not. All consoles are backward compatible as well.

I'm guessing that Bluray will probably be around for say 3-4 years by which time the PS4 will be available with a bigger media (games developers have already said 50GB isn't enough for HD audio and video in games). I'm guessing they'll have a huge say in that format, optical or otherwise (online store eliminating optical media?).

Anyone feel like Sony might have just planned on regular format changes that benefit it profit-wise rather than consumers? It's a bit of a coincidence that they're always on the right track... although that's probably why they're more successful than me!

I understood the trend you are presenting -- I presented another one

in terms of 5k -- Is this pixel range? how does it compare to Imax?

EDIT --- did a little research -- the 5K uses a much smaller frame then the 70mm used by iMax

 

[tri3limited]

Maybe another external HDD would be better! Think of how long it would take to burn 1TB of Data to DVDs at 16-24x... Now imagine that on Bluray discs at 1-8x speed. It would be a killer and far too impractical...

This is one of the key arguments against backing up to discs.


EDIT:
With regards to iMAX the key difference between that and 5k is that 5k is a digital format whereas iMax is a film based format so there will be significant differences in quality. I believe that the film industry is just beginning the transition to mainly digital so these cameras will play a big part. With regards to iMax, it is essentially 7k film. The old film vs digital thing!

 

[chaosbunny]

In my opinion it will come sooner or later. But at least here in central Europe the transition from DVD to BR goes much slower than from VHS to DVD.

DVD offers many comfortable advantages vs VHS, better quality, chapter selection, no need to rewind, different languages, bonus material, etc... but BR vs DVD offers only better quality.

For me as a graphic designer BR as a backup medium is irrelevant. My Photoshop files don't get bigger than 3-400 mb most of the time, and vector files or layout files from Illustrator or InDesign usually don't take more than a couple of mbs. I don't really have problems backing up certain projects on 1 or sometimes 2 DVDs. That said I haven't backed up anything to a DVD for almost a year. I don't have big files but many many small ones, so simply putting them on a external HD and let spotlight do the searching is much more convenient than labeling a couple of disks accurately in order to find something.

 

[sushi]

CD (Made it), Laser Disk (Failed), DVD (Made it), Blue ray/HD DVD (Fail?), Next generation optical drive medium (Made it?)

Your rating of Laser Disk hurts, but it spot on. Unfortunately, I went with the technology and owned many and 3 players.

Over here in Japan, I am hearing whispers of the new format to supersede BluRay. It will only be a matter of time.

I'm guessing that Bluray will probably be around for say 3-4 years by which time the PS4 will be available with a bigger media (games developers have already said 50GB isn't enough for HD audio and video in games). I'm guessing they'll have a huge say in that format, optical or otherwise (online store eliminating optical media?).

It takes some market to push the technology. Now it looks like gaming was, is, and will be one of these prime markets.

Anyone feel like Sony might have just planned on regular format changes that benefit it profit-wise rather than consumers?

Yes.

Just like now, there laptops are built to last a year. It's so bad, many joke about the Sony one year clock.

I want BDR discs as a backup for my 1 TB External. now in DVD-Rs that would require some 235 odd DVDs +/- a few either way, for DVD-R DL or DVD-RAM thats still arround 120 Discs as apposed to the 20-22 BD-R's (50 GB) that would take. no argument.

No way in heck would I do that. Backing up to BR disks would take too long. And If I did weekly backups, I would hate to think of the cost and time involved each week.

Instead, I would purchase a couple of 1TB external HDs, with FW800 interface, for backup purposes.

For fun, I just priced out some BluRay blanks and found this. A spindle of 50 25GB 2x BD-R Write-once Blu-Ray disks costs $582.12! Surely there are cheaper prices out there. This is way too expensive to even consider when compared to external HD solution for weekly or daily backups.

Maybe another external HDD would be better! Think of how long it would take to burn 1TB of Data to DVDs at 16-24x... Now imagine that on Bluray discs at 1-8x speed. It would be a killer and far too impractical...

This is one of the key arguments against backing up to discs.

See above.

And to add, if you use backup software that spans the backup image, then you run the risk of one BluRay disk not working, which in turn renders the entire set unusable.

DVD offers many comfortable advantages vs VHS, better quality, chapter selection, no need to rewind, different languages, bonus material, etc... but BR vs DVD offers only better quality.

And when you look at the cost involved with upgrading your library and equipment used to play the BluRay disks, it becomes less desirable for the gain in video quality.

And for those who like the classics, BluRay really doesn't even matter. I mean how much better will "Casablanca" be in BluRay vice DVD?

Sure in the BluRay verses DVD comparison, BluRay is better spec wise no doubt about it. However, in practical application, BluRay does not come as that much better.

 

[tri3limited]

Love the views sushi! Prime example for people who put Bluray as a priority in next generation Mac updates that the technology is unnecessary and impractical.

Can people really expect Steve Jobs to include a SuperDuperDrive (Bluray) with only a 4x write speed... I would think not.

 

[iMacmatician]

In my opinion i think Apple are heading in the right direction by eliminating the disc drive from the Air and this is the direction Mr. Jobs is heading, as done before with the floppy drive. It would cut costs, save battery, bigger HDDs, lighten the product and leave more space for other features or better cooling systems. Most software companies have their software available for download, and iTunes has the music and films.

If you think I'm right or wrong please let me know.

I think you're right.

The only times I need optical media are to install software and play DVDs from the library. I don't use them to transfer data (flash drives) or archive data (external HDs). The space consumed by an optical drive in a laptop could much better be used for a faster processor, two HDs, a lighter case, and/or a bigger battery.

And for those who need an optical drive… let's have that as an option! Let us choose whether we want an optical drive in our notebooks or not.

Maybe Apple will remove the optical drive from the next (not the upcoming one) redesign of the notebooks in 2011 or 2012 or so.

As for using BR for backup. Myself along with some friends have discovered that CDs and DVDs don't always retain their information over time. I remember when CDs came out, it was advertised as holding information for a 100 years. This was modified to 30 years. And now some say 10 years.

Well, I've had CDs fail that were 5 years old.

Not to mention they can be physically scratched or otherwise damaged.

 

[sushi]

Love the views sushi! Prime example for people who put Bluray as a priority in next generation Mac updates that the technology is unnecessary and impractical.

Can people really expect Steve Jobs to include a SuperDuperDrive (Bluray) with only a 4x write speed... I would think not.

Thanks.

Recently I've been trying (testing) out some DL DVD burning for backing up and sharing purposes. Cost wise, the DVD9 blanks cost more than double DVD5 blanks.

IMHO, I think when HD-DVD bit the dust, a bit of air went out of this generation of the format (HD-DVD/BluRay). The competition spurred sales it seemed as individuals voted with their dollars. Now with only one format, it seems fewer people that I know are really getting into BluRay. It might be because they just saw those early HD-DVD adopters getting burnt on their choice. So the BluRay folks are wondering how long their choice will last into the future before something else comes along.

Now it seems there is more excitement concerning DL'ing videos from various sources to include iTMS. Rentals seem much more popular these days as well.

I only know of one fellow who is into BluRay. And he really likes the quality. Of course he has spend thousands on his equipment and player. Not to mention purchasing new BluRay disks for $20 plus prices.

But other than that, I see many more friends going for the sub $10 DVD specials. It's surprising how many good movies can be purchased for around $4-5.

Just don't see the excitement that there was. Of course this is a very subjective observation based upon friends and co-workers comments. But it's interesting to see the change from a couple of years ago.

Not to mention they can be physically scratched or otherwise damaged.

You just made me cry ... brought back memories of irreplaceable data loss due to CDs being scratched and unreadable. Sniff...

 

[mayanka89]

Well, I would like just a Blu-Ray reader/DVD writer. I have a home theater that allows me to easily tell the difference between DVDs and HD movies. So I would like to watch my Blu-Ray movies on the go, instead of having to buy both SD and HD versions.

 

[winninganthem]

Second of all, the editors don't required Bluray as they keep the files on their systems/servers so there is no need to store bluray versions of the file. All in all most clients are only after a practical solution so therefore DVD is more than enough.

Wrong. HDD's have a shelf life of about 4-5 years, and are also very prone to failing. CDs and DVDs have a shelf life of about 20-25 years.

Bluray discs have a massive capacity which make long-term storage and back-ups very possible.

 

[nanofrog]

I like optical media for archival purposes, but not for system back-up. So for now, DVD will do. For back-up, I'll stick to large capacity HDD's.

Until the cost of Blu ray media comes down, it's not worth it just yet. Hopefully, this will change in the not so distant future. Unless the 400GB Pioneer disks beat them to it.

As for those interested in downloads replacing optical media, I'm not so sure. Here in the US, we don't have nearly the necessary bandwidth available at this time. ISP providers tend to max out at less than 10 Mb/s service, and are even beginning to implement caps (5 GB data/month) according to another thread. This doesn't bode well, I should think. "Tiered Service" here we come?

As for HD video content, HD tv hasn't been fully implemented in the US yet. Though we have a cut off date in Feb 09 for over the air broadcast services, satellite and cable providers aren't bound to it. So in this situation, I can't see the adoption of any of the new HD standards currently in development any time soon. Blu ray may actually have a chance here, especially if the cost of the movies drops to something more attractive.

For now, I'm willing to wait it out. I'm just tired of adopting technology too soon, only to get burned.

 

[Chundles]

I want it to watch HD movies on my computer.

Downloads will not be a replacement for physical media in Australia for as long as we are tied to the current infrastructure and pricing we will never be free!

But, grab a Blu-Ray movie, stick it in my laptop, maybe plug the lappy into a big-arse HD telly and voila! Much less hassle than waiting an age for a download of a movie that's even more compressed than one on Blu-Ray.

 

[nanofrog]

I want it to watch HD movies on my computer.

Downloads will not be a replacement for physical media in Australia for as long as we are tied to the current infrastructure and pricing we will never be free!

It's the same here in the US. We aren't capable of achieving the necessary download speeds for on-demand HD video content. I don't see it getting there in the near future either. We'd get the "too expensive" routine from the providers I suspect.

I don't want to continue to pay to see the same movie, so I do prefer buying my own copy.
Add up-converting DVD players to the mix, Blu ray will have to lower prices to gain popularity, and thus market share. Why would people pay $30USD or more for a Blu ray version, when the DVD version at $15 or less (discount specials) can be played at the same resolution?
Even considering up-conversion may not be quite as detailed as a native format, most people would live with it at the cost difference I would think.

 

[motulist]

Wrong. HDD's have a shelf life of about 4-5 years, and are also very prone to failing. CDs and DVDs have a shelf life of about 20-25 years.

Bluray discs have a massive capacity which make long-term storage and back-ups very possible.

Agreed, optical discs maintain their data integrity several time longer than a hdd will. And if you add in parity data recovery files, the longer time until optical discs fail gets multiplied again.

Whenever I burn an optical disc that has data I care about, I put 10% worth of .PAR2 parity recovery files on it. So if any random 10% of the data on my disc happens to get damaged I can still recover 100% of the data I burned onto the disc. So if data lasts 4 times longer on optical discs compared to hdd, then adding 10% worth of recovery files must make its durability even better than 4 times longer than hard drives with the same amount of recovery files.

So I say definitely bring on the blu-ray for data backups! As for BR movies, I have no desire for them at all right now.

 

[tri3limited]

As i've mention 4x Bluray backups??

What is this obsession with backing up to loads of discs (even 2 or 3 is loads to me!).

Think how long it takes to burn a CD at 4x... a while. (700MB)
A DVD at 4x... a while. (4.7GB)
Even a DVD at 24x... a quicker while. (4.7GB)
Bluray discs at 4x... an age! (50GB)

Online forums suggest a longish 25-30 mins per disc. Even when it gets quicker it will still be agonizing. CORRECTION BELOW

Might i suggest owning a couple of 1TB HDDs for the money and accepting that they will probably fail quicker than the discs but will transfer quicker (lets say FW800 for Mac people), be more cost effective, and easier to adjust data. No to forget larger sizes.

Surely you will need a backup of your original Bluray disc in case it gets destroyed in a fire or something... So maybe an hour to do something that can be done maybe 4x as quick on a HDD.

EDIT: After doing some extra research, it appears the speculated maximum burning speed for internal Bluray drives will be 12x due to the amount the disc would have to spin due to drives being fairly limited to 10,000 RPM and considering 1x can have the disc spin at anywhere from 1,000 to 2,000 RPM. Half height drives may be only half of this again.

4x Bluray is 17.15MB/Second

CORRECTION: A 50GB disc will take approximately 90 minutes at 2x so 45 mins at 4x. A single layer at 4x takes approximately 22 minutes. A 6x test using a CAV drive took 20 mins, the previous times were done using the CLV rotation method.



A Side Note
---
Thanks for all the passionate responses supporting or rebuking the Bluray technology. Great hearing your views!

 

[motulist]

As i've mention 4x Bluray backups??

What is this obsession with backing up to loads of discs (even 2 or 3 is loads to me!).

Think how long it takes to burn a CD at 4x... a while. (700MB)
A DVD at 4x... a while. (4.7GB)
Even a DVD at 24x... a quicker while. (4.7GB)
Bluray discs at 4x... an age! (50GB)

<snip>

4x Bluray is 17.15MB/Second

17.15 MB/s is almost as fast as many hard drives can write.

But anyway, you're comparing apples to oranges. Burning an optical has always been slower than writing to a hard drive, yet burning optical discs has always been a heavily used technology. And since little has changed relatively between the two, it means disc burning today is just as useful as its ever been.

Yeah, it's always slower to write to optical than to hdd, but it always gets much faster every year despite the talk of maximum theoretical burning speed limits that you always hear constantly since disc burning technology was invented. But burning opticals is also cheaper per MB (never initially, but after the technology has been out for a couple of years and widely adopted), is much more failure resistant, is not at all susceptible to electromagnetic fields, is waterproof for short durations, is very resistant to blunt mechanical damage, takes up much less physical space, is much lighter, and thus is easier and less expensive to send through the mail, much more easily distributable (can you imagine the weight and space required if you just wanted to give 50 people a copy of something at a party and you had to bring it on 50 hard drives?), is automatically entirely cross platform whereas a hdd must be formatted in a specific way at the very start if you want the drive to ever be readable by users of other platforms, is idiot proof in terms of sharing with others since everyone knows how to stick a disc in their drive, etc.

Hard disk drives have plenty of advantages, but the advantages and disadvantages of hdd versus optical drives have not changed just because blu-ray is the new optical format.

 

[nanofrog]

Blu ray, or any optical storage is slow, and limited in capacity. So, yes it's lousy for routine backups.

Archiving data for long term storage, though is acceptable for most. HDD's do die, and more frequently than optical. The rate of technology change usually moves quicker for HDD's, than optical. Hopefully this trend would reduce the effort and cost to change archival methods.

Cheap, large capacity SSD's may eliminate the need altogether though.

 

[tri3limited]

Cheap, large capacity SSD's may eliminate the need altogether though.

Now that's what i like to hear! I feel Bluray is being forced on us all when in 5 or so years time i feel fairly confident in it being replaced, if it isn't already.

I think eventually optical storage will become a very specialist thing, after all internet speeds will increase (if a better online system altogether doesn't come along... the current system is very crowded and the DNS bug is a tad huge!) as will flash storage, HDD and SSD storage and prices.

As you probably already know, i feel this is a needless stop gap to make some money before the next portable storage medium promptly arrives to take it's place within the next 3-5 years... Not a long time for a medium to fully establish it's self.

 

[nanofrog]

Now that's what i like to hear! I feel Bluray is being forced on us all when in 5 or so years time i feel fairly confident in it being replaced, if it isn't already.

I think eventually optical storage will become a very specialist thing, after all internet speeds will increase (if a better online system altogether doesn't come along... the current system is very crowded and the DNS bug is a tad huge!) as will flash storage, HDD and SSD storage and prices.

As you probably already know, i feel this is a needless stop gap to make some money before the next portable storage medium promptly arrives to take it's place within the next 3-5 years... Not a long time for a medium to fully establish it's self.

It could be longer, depending on how long it takes for the technology to mature, and the price/storage ratio to become wonderfully attractive.

In the mean time, optical media isn't going anywhere just yet.

 

[sushi]

The beauty of using external HDs for backup purposes is speed, ease of use and cost. If my internal HD is 500GB, then I can get two external 500GB HDs and alternate between them for backup each week. And of course store them in alternate locations.

The cost to have this level of backup using BluRay would be very expensive. Actually for most, probably cost prohibitive. Not to mention the time required to back up the files.

As for those who quote long storage time for optical media, we really don't know how long they will last. If past experience is any indication, they last much less than advertised.

When I was growing up, a few years ago, I enjoyed looking at old family photographs. These photographs were black and white, over 50 years old and still held their quality.

Assuming that I had the same on digital media such as a HD with a life expectancy of 5 years, that would be 10 HD life spans. Even optical at 30 years would take more than one set. With going digital, we have created work for ourselves just to maintain our photographs and other digital media.

Gut feeling is that we will see more cloud options in the future for the private individual and small business. Backing up data, takes effort and keeping a schedule. A good backup plan involves at least three backups located in three different locations. How many do this? Very few I would guess. Cloud storage provides an easy solution provided that there is plenty of bandwidth available.

As for movie backups, we may see a day when individuals do not own any digital movies. Rather, everyone can just select movies from the world library, if you will, and begin watching immediately via a rental system. Of course this requires bandwidth that we do no have yet and not in the foreseeable future. But this will change of that I am sure. Just takes time.

Anyhow, for weekly or more often backups as the case may be, this kid will continue using external HDs. Simple. Fast. Reliable. Relatively low cost.