Any audiophiles out there

[zhenya]

The reality is anyone who is listening through free Apple earbuds shouldn't be concerned with the quality of the sound to begin with. Especially if they are streaming music via Apple Music, or otherwise (interesting side note, Neil Young just pulled his music from streaming services because he said the quality wasn't high enough). However as fisher king writes, a higher quality DAC is better regardless if the quality is necessarily apparent to a specific listeners anecdotal experience.

As Mindinversion states, there are a lot of headphone options. One in particular is the Phillips Fidelio which has gotten very high marks for it's sound quality with it's built-in DACs. These are the style of headphones people will be using anyway if they prefer quality audio. This is evidenced at my gym where a good 60% of the headphones worn are of the full-sized Beats or better variety, with the rest being earbuds of BluTooth.

The 1/8" audio jack is a low-fi interface, and any Apple product is going to provide good basic performance, superior to almost any other manufacturer in my experience, depending on the final listening source: speakers, headphones, earbuds, etc. Higher quality headphones are likely to show up deficiencies in both the DAC and audio file quality.

So it's not a simple question of which sounds better, since there are so many variables depending on how critical the listening environment is, the most important of which being the individual's own ears.

In the end, regardless of the device used, if a good quality external DAC is used, either built-in to the headphones, or a dongle for a good quality pair of headphones, the bet quality possible from the chosen soundless will be possible. And that dongle doesn't have to be very big at all -- Apple's own Lightning Dock has a tiny footprint yet outputs audio from it's 1/8" audio jack equal or superior to the iPhone's built-in 1/8" jack. All the more reason Apple should just move away from the 1/8" audio jack, and let the consumer chose the best method for getting audio out of their devices, not just the lowest-common demeanor standard.

Whoa there. Slow down. Lot's of misinformation here. The 1/8" audio jack is NOT a 'low-fi interface'. It is merely the interface that transfers the analogue signal from the DAC to the drivers that will ultimately make the sound. If the 1/8" jack is low-fi, then so are the speaker jacks in an expensive home system.

To say it again, the DAC's and amplifiers Apple has been using in their devices, from iPhones to iPads to their MacBooks and home computers have been extremely high quality, and more importantly, extremely well implemented for MANY years now. It is extremely unlikely that the DAC in some inexpensive Philips headphones is any better, and in all likelihood it is considerably worse.

The Lightning jack doesn't really output audio at all. It is capable of passing the digital bits and handing it off to an outboard DAC, but it doesn't output anything analogue that you can listen to directly. Whether the output sounds the better, worse, or the same as what comes out of the 1/8" jack is entirely dependent on what you connect to that lightning jack. The Lightning dock almost certainly uses the same cheap DAC as is tucked into the Lightning to 30-pin adapter, and that sounds, to my ears, tested on several extremely expensive systems, considerably worse than the output direct from the iPhone.

In order to play sound on a speaker, the sound must be converted to an analogue waveform, and all the 1/8" jack is doing is passing that waveform to the headphones. Any sound system has the same bit of copper somewhere in the chain - whether as an 1/8" jack, speaker terminals, or a tiny piece of wire connecting the output of the DAC (remember that's Digital to Analogue Converter) to the headphones drivers directly. No one system is better than another. It's merely a question of the right part for the job.

 

[tbirdparis]

How does the rMB audio dac/amp compare with other MacBooks past or present for headphone use? Also, is it better than latest iPhones?

Definitely an audiophile here. In my view, the built in audio on the rMB is on par with if not exactly the same as all of the notebooks Apple have made for some time. That's to say it's a very respectable consumer level signal chain, significantly better than what you'll find on the average PC but not in the same league as dedicated hardware. I tested it in store with a friend's headphones (didn't have any on me), can't remember the exact model name but they are very decent smaller Sennheiser cans. It was not much of a critical listening test - I just wanted to make sure it was nothing out of the ordinary and at least as good as I've come to expect from Mac built-in audio, and it was.

Basically if you use any good quality headphones with the correct impedance (I do not include any Beats models in the list of what classes as good quality because I haven't heard one that isn't dreadful), you'll have a good listening experience. It's a great balance of convenience and perfectly suitable quality, delivers good enough results that for most people, once you have headphones you like, you don't need to look any further.

In the context of my profession though, we don't use the built-in sound on Macs, or any computer, never have. In that case it's always dedicated hardware, studio monitoring and studio-grade headphones (Sennheiser HD650s have been the go-to model for a while in the business - worth checking out). But when I'm out and about with my laptop, the sound you get from decent cans on a Mac laptop has never made me feel the need to bring specialised gear around with me, the convenience to quality ratio is fine for that context. Of course if I'm doing any actual audio work with a notebook, in that case yes we always use high-end audio interfaces for that purpose.

 

[Dayv]

(interesting side note, Neil Young just pulled his music from streaming services because he said the quality wasn't high enough)

And of course that has nothing to do with the fact that he has a financial interest in a company selling people "hi def" audio file snake oil.

 

[fisherking]

And of course that has nothing to do with the fact that he has a financial interest in a company selling people "hi def" audio file snake oil.

also...who's he hurting? the streaming companies? no...the fans...

 

[zhenya]

And of course that has nothing to do with the fact that he has a financial interest in a company selling people "hi def" audio file snake oil.

Did he? I am still getting Neil Young suggestions in Apple Music.

 

[gman36]

Uh, I answered it twice.

Again, the output from this computer sounds excellent. From the teardowns posted online, it appears to use the same Cirrus Logic DAC as used in all other recent MacBook Pro's and Airs.

Thank you for the DAC info, that is helpful.

and to your condescending remark, LOL no you didnt. You said these statements.
"but I can't say that for certain yet." "I haven't done truly critical comparisons, but my impression is that the output of the Macbook is quite good."

 

[Mac 128]

Whoa there. Slow down. Lot's of misinformation here....The Lightning dock almost certainly uses the same cheap DAC as is tucked into the Lightning to 30-pin adapter, and that sounds, to my ears, tested on several extremely expensive systems, considerably worse than the output direct from the iPhone.

Wow. Talk about misinformation: 'I've heard one thing, and although I haven't heard the other I'm sure they're the same and to my ears they're not very good'

Wrong. I have the Lightning dock and I can tell you matter of factly that the audio sounds equal to or better than that on the iPhone. So perhaps you should actually listen to them before you start spreading misinformation.

The 1/8" audio jack is NOT a 'low-fi interface'. It is merely the interface that transfers the analogue signal from the DAC to the drivers that will ultimately make the sound. If the 1/8" jack is low-fi, then so are the speaker jacks in an expensive home system. ... In order to play sound on a speaker, the sound must be converted to an analogue waveform, and all the 1/8" jack is doing is passing that waveform to the headphones. Any sound system has the same bit of copper somewhere in the chain - whether as an 1/8" jack, speaker terminals, or a tiny piece of wire connecting the output of the DAC (remember that's Digital to Analogue Converter) to the headphones drivers directly. No one system is better than another. It's merely a question of the right part for the job.

It's two very different situations. The gauge of the wire and the way the connections are made contribute to the sound quality. 1/8" connectors are already compromised by the surface area that comes in contact with the plug. There's a reason why 1/4" phone plugs are preferred in audio connections because of the surface area in contact with the connectors. Having used phone connectors for years in professional patch bay situations, I can tell you that the connectors suffer from contaminants, corrosion and mechanical failure from repeated inserting and removing, reducing the signal transmission, not to mention the limitations of the size of the wires, and shielding, transmitting the sound. Then there's the noise introduced by the device itself, through an added analogue connection between the DAC conversion and the headphone signal transfer, something eliminated by making the signal digital until i gets to the speaker. In the case of a stereo system speaker setup, the amp typically does nothing else but amplify the sound to introduce additional noise. The connections are not subject to mechanical wear, and tend to be substantial gauge wiring that has a great contact surface with the connector on both ends, thereby producing much higher quality signal than that of an 1/8" phone jack on a computer, or mobile device, full of wireless radios.

It is extremely unlikely that the DAC in some inexpensive Philips headphones is any better, and in all likelihood it is considerably worse.

Once again making statements without any facts. The Philips Lightning headphones have received excellent reviews. Its unlikely the critical audio reviewers are going to give it high marks if it sounds worse than what comes out of Apple's own MacBook. And to use your anecdotal analysis, to my ear, I've heard inexpensive wireless headphones that are easily as high quality as the output from Apple's 1/8" phone jacks, especially when one takes into account that most people are using Apple's free iPhone earbuds in the first place.

 

[zhenya]

Wrong. I have the Lightning dock and I can tell you matter of factly that the audio sounds equal to or better than that on the iPhone. So perhaps you should actually listen to them before you start spreading misinformation.

So your anecdotal opinion supercedes mine. Got it. I made it very clear that it sounds worse to me. Yes, I've listened. Extensively. On several systems, including my own near end-game headphone setup that I trust to be completely revealing. Most good DAC's sound pretty close to the same. The one in the 30-pin adapter does not.

It's two very different situations. The gauge of the wire and the way the connections are made contribute to the sound quality. 1/8" connectors are already compromised by the surface area that comes in contact with the plug. There's a reason why 1/4" phone plugs are preferred in audio connections because of the surface area in contact with the connectors.

The primary difference between the 1/8" and 1/4" jacks is durability, not sound quality.

 

[tbirdparis]

So your anecdotal opinion supercedes mine. Got it. I made it very clear that it sounds worse to me. Yes, I've listened. Extensively. On several systems, including my own near end-game headphone setup that I trust to be completely revealing. Most good DAC's sound pretty close to the same. The one in the 30-pin adapter does not.



The primary difference between the 1/8" and 1/4" jacks is durability, not sound quality.

I can't confirm or deny the first point from personal experience, but I would tend to agree on the second one. Many of the high-end cans we use in studios these days come with an 1/8" jack as the default connector, with an adaptor to 1/4" jack supplied. Years ago I thought this was a bit weird because all of the headphone outs on studio gear (that I'm aware of at least) are 1/4" jack sized, so it felt a bit odd that they were accommodating the smaller standard as well. But I've long since gotten used to that, and it's convenient too for when you want to plug into consumer gear.
In any case, it's a pretty good indication that there's nothing inherently worse about the smaller format, if professional high end audio gear uses it. After all it's just electric conduction and contacts, the difference in the amount of contact surface area between the two doesn't matter as long as the connector itself is designed and built correctly. Everything else in the signal chain is where the real quality issues arise.

 

[cbautis2]

It's not the matter of jack size IMO, it's the conductivity and resistivity of the cables and connectors. That's why some cable upgrades are made with Silver to preserve the fullest analog signal quality of the amplifier.

 

[MH01]

Get an external DAC, the MacBook should only be a source

 

[Mac 128]

So your anecdotal opinion supercedes mine. Got it. I made it very clear that it sounds worse to me. ... Most good DAC's sound pretty close to the same. The one in the 30-pin adapter does not.

Not at all. You've been saying because the the 30-pin to Lightning audio adapter dongle doesn't sound as good as the onboard DAC, that every DAC Apple sells is of the same quality, without experiencing it yourself. I'm not saying the 30-pin to Lightning connector doesn't sound worse to you ... I'm suggesting that it's disingenuous to state matter-of-factly that every external DAC dock Apple makes will have identical sound to that you perceive, or actually exists, on their 30-pin to lightning dongle; and further use that misleading anecdotal observation to discredit any DAC dongle made by anyone -- which is basically what you've done. I've offered anecdotal evidence that discredits your sweeping pseudo-transitive generalizations, without implying that what I've observed with the two Apple DAC's I've personally listened to is true of every product Apple makes. Only suggesting that a higher quality product is possible.

Apple's adapter had to be made at a price point, and accomplish a lot of things, of which the audio was just a part of it. A dedicated Lightning DAC to mini-phone jack for the same price would likely have a much higher quality DAC. Further, there's an ulterior motive for Apple to make an inferior converter adaptor (and I'm not saying Apple is intentionally doing this) -- but they want people to switch to Lightning, not keep using their old 30-pin devices. And finally, Apple does not currently support 24bit HD audio on the iPhone. So that's further reason not to provide optimal audio support in a multi-purpose dongle for an unsupported legacy device. If someone truly wants HD audio then they will seek an external solution in a 30-pin legal device which can come closer to producing it.