Any chance 2013 Airs will get discrete graphics cards?

[Wokis]

I remember reading that the ULV versions of Haswell CPUs would only have a moderate increase in graphics power, when compared to the coming regular notebook CPUs (to be found in MBPs). Isn't this right? So to expect suddenly great gaming performance in MBAs next year is a bit unrealistic.
Anyway, for the retina MBPs next year the more siginificant increase in graphics power should definately something to look forward to..

Myes, Anand in his recent haswell run-through said we should expect only a "smaller", 30%, increase in GPU-performance on the ULV-line while the regular voltage ones will see up to 2x performance.

Apparently Broadwell (2014) is the one that will have the stuff when it comes to graphics.

 

[DrumApple]

HIGHLY doubtful. Word is they're not even putting discrete graphics in the upcoming 13" MBP retina. It's too bad Apple has shunned its working multimedia professionals user base. Get a Windows laptop if you want a true powerhouse with discrete graphics.

 

[Patrick B]

Another question (or rather a doubt....) about this is the value of a discrete graphics card specifically for playing games on a retina display.

I'm not sure of the relative performance of the 650m (??) vs the Intel HD-4000, but it would have to be significantly greater than 4x in order to make the discrete graphics card viable (in a retina vs non-retina display comparison).

Even running games at 1440x900 as the 'set' resolution....the 650m on retina is driving north of 5 million pixels on the display, vs the Intel HD-4000 driving just under 1.3 million pixels on the non-retina display. And I seem to recall that even when running at 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 on the retina display, the GPU is actually pushing more than just the 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 pixel displays (ie, they are interpreting 2880x1400 down to 6/7s for 1680x1050 or 3/4s for 1920x1200). That may not be entirely accurate, so some clarification should be in order.

Is the 650m really more than 4x as powerful as the HD-4000? Especially if the objective is playing games with high-frame rates?



Patrick

 

[Calot]

Yes, Apple will likely wait for Haswell to release 2013 MBAs. They will probably release them during summer, like the two past refreshes.

If you have the patience to wait until then, you can be assured that they will offer better gaming performance. Otherwise, consider a laptop with discrete graphics.

I can suggest a refurbished 15" MBP: http://store.apple.com/us/product/FD318LL/A
That's the late-2011 model for $1359 and both its graphics card and CPU are nearly twice as powerful as the MBA's.

For that money he could get a i7/8gb/256gb 2012 air which would be much faster in everyday use.

The ssd and twice the ram REALLY make a big difference.

And more ppi

And half the weight

And it runs diablo 3, sc2, half life 2, borderlands, doom 3, etc VERY well.

 

[goinskiing]

Highly unlikely, given they're using low voltage CPU and still run a tad hot. A discrete GPU would generate lots more heat and drain the battery.

 

[strwrsfrk]

Another question (or rather a doubt....) about this is the value of a discrete graphics card specifically for playing games on a retina display.

I'm not sure of the relative performance of the 650m (??) vs the Intel HD-4000, but it would have to be significantly greater than 4x in order to make the discrete graphics card viable (in a retina vs non-retina display comparison).

Even running games at 1440x900 as the 'set' resolution....the 650m on retina is driving north of 5 million pixels on the display, vs the Intel HD-4000 driving just under 1.3 million pixels on the non-retina display. And I seem to recall that even when running at 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 on the retina display, the GPU is actually pushing more than just the 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 pixel displays (ie, they are interpreting 2880x1400 down to 6/7s for 1680x1050 or 3/4s for 1920x1200). That may not be entirely accurate, so some clarification should be in order.

Is the 650m really more than 4x as powerful as the HD-4000? Especially if the objective is playing games with high-frame rates?

So many people seem to overlook that retina-ifying any resolution quadruples the number of pixels for the GPU to push. Personally, I'd HATE a retina MacBook Air. As long as we're on integrated graphics, there will not be too much power to draw from, and HD content and gaming will suffer (you think gaming on a MBA is Hell now?). And if we bump to a deiscrete GPU capable of moving those pixels around, we're going to see heat and battery life issues up the wazoo.

My personal hope for the 2013 MacBook Air is a slight "deepening" of the 11.6" Air by about .5". This would hopefully allow a bump in screen size to about 12.1" (the bezel would shrink about 1/4" in every direction), which would then be bumped to a 16:10 1440x900 resolution at least. 1680x1050 would be dreamy. For ports, the Thunderbolt moves to the left to be with the MagSafe, USB 3.0, headphone jack, and mic. The right side keeps the USB 3.0, gets an SDXC slot, and adds a non-video Thunderbolt port (or third USB 3.0 port).

Fantasy? You bet. Would I replace my 2012 11.6" i7 8GB 256GB with something like this in a heartbeat? Absolutely.

 

[zhandri]

get a macbook pro with the 650M. it's a very good card. it's the only mac notebook you will be able to play games with but it'll cost ya

 

[pgiguere1]

For that money he could get a i7/8gb/256gb 2012 air which would be much faster in everyday use.

The ssd and twice the ram REALLY make a big difference.

And more ppi

And half the weight

And it runs diablo 3, sc2, half life 2, borderlands, doom 3, etc VERY well.

The whole point of OP's thread is that the 2012 MBA is not good enough for his gaming needs. Running "very well" is subjective, and someone who expects high framerates at high settings will be disappointed by any integrated graphics on the market. I don't see the point of suggesting what OP literally said he didn't want.

Yes, the MBA has some advantages over a 15" MBP, but like I said, it's nowhere near as fast for gaming, and the late 2011 15" MBP will have almost both the CPU and GPU power, making it a machine much better suited for gaming. While the MBA is a very good computer overall, its graphics card isn't nearly as fast as a Radeon HD 6750M, and its 17W dual-core CPU isn't nearly as fast as a 45W quad-core CPU.

Intel HD 4000: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-4000.69168.0.html
AMD Radeon HD 6750M: http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-HD-6750M.43958.0.html
Geekbench results : http://browser.primatelabs.com/mac-benchmarks

 

[pgiguere1]

Another question (or rather a doubt....) about this is the value of a discrete graphics card specifically for playing games on a retina display.

I'm not sure of the relative performance of the 650m (??) vs the Intel HD-4000, but it would have to be significantly greater than 4x in order to make the discrete graphics card viable (in a retina vs non-retina display comparison).

Even running games at 1440x900 as the 'set' resolution....the 650m on retina is driving north of 5 million pixels on the display, vs the Intel HD-4000 driving just under 1.3 million pixels on the non-retina display. And I seem to recall that even when running at 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 on the retina display, the GPU is actually pushing more than just the 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 pixel displays (ie, they are interpreting 2880x1400 down to 6/7s for 1680x1050 or 3/4s for 1920x1200). That may not be entirely accurate, so some clarification should be in order.

Is the 650m really more than 4x as powerful as the HD-4000? Especially if the objective is playing games with high-frame rates?



Patrick

The GT650M is around 4x as powerful as the HD 4000, meaning you would get about the same performance pushing 4x the amount of pixels on the GT650M. Gaming at native resolution on the rMBP will let you have around the same settings and framerate as on a MacBook Air, that's why most people choose a lower resolution.

I personally use my rMBP on an external monitor at 1920x1200. I play StarCraft II at Extreme settings and get 50-60 FPS. Extreme on my internal monitor at 2880x1800 gets me about 25-30 FPS. I would only get an acceptable framerate if I either lowered the resolution or turned down some graphics settings.

 

[Calot]

[/COLOR]

The whole point of OP's thread is that the 2012 MBA is not good enough for his gaming needs. Running "very well" is subjective, and someone who expects high framerates at high settings will be disappointed by any integrated graphics on the market. I don't see the point of suggesting what OP literally said he didn't want.

Yes, the MBA has some advantages over a 15" MBP, but like I said, it's nowhere near as fast for gaming, and the late 2011 15" MBP will have almost both the CPU and GPU power, making it a machine much better suited for gaming. While the MBA is a very good computer overall, its graphics card isn't nearly as fast as a Radeon HD 6750M, and its 17W dual-core CPU isn't nearly as fast as a 45W quad-core CPU.

Intel HD 4000: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-4000.69168.0.html
AMD Radeon HD 6750M: http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-HD-6750M.43958.0.html
Geekbench results : http://browser.primatelabs.com/mac-benchmarks

I was talking about that exact $1350 MBP someone was suggesting.

THAT particular one with 4GB of RAM and a 5400 RPM hdd would feel a lot slower with everyday tasks, like opening apps, surfing the web, etc.

I obviously know that gaming would be better on that 1350 MBP.

But that particular MBP kinda sucks, with the 1440x900 resolution, 4GB of RAM and 5400 RPM hdd. (I had one just like that, and after a while it got kinda slow, my i7 8GB 256gb Air boots up in 10 seconds)

I was merely suggesting that for that money, you could get something much, much cooler that would run the games NOT that much noticeably slower/worse that the MBP.

 

[mrsir2009]

I don't think so - The air is the low end Apple laptop, so a discrete graphics card will never be needed. Ever-advancing integrated graphics technology is more than enough for the Air

 

[seong]

I'm glad I got my MBA, because ever since the day I bought it, I stopped playing games!
With all seriousness though, meh. It could happen if Intel and nVidia works together to create a single chipset that includes both CPU and GPU... but that will take a decade or so?

 

[bartzilla]

Articles and releases concerning the hardware itself were referring to OS X specific drivers.

Truthfully, I hadn't considered running it on bootcamp. But, if Apple's not going to include drivers in it's own OS, why would it include them for bootcamp?

When running Windows under bootcamp you could use the graphic card manufacturer's own drivers. Nothing to do with Apple. In fact, I don't see any reason why a graphics card manufacturer couldn't make their own drivers for their cards under OSX.

 

[Beau10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law

Please do not forget that even if Haswell were to, as expected, double the graphics capability of iGPUs, it took them two years to do so and time didn't stand still. It will be comparable to low-end discretes that the HD4000 had to compare against, but once haswell is on the market, it still be very soon far below average

2 years? HD3000 was last year, HD4000 is this year, HD5000 is next year. So 2.5x is one year. HD4000 is about 40% faster than HD3000. That's another year. We have not seen the kind of gains in IGPs year over year like we're seeing in Haswell, it truly is bringing us closer to actual low-end IGPs.

Yes, I'm well aware of Moore's law. I have a degree in computer science and have been writing software for embedded medical systems for about 15 years now. Thanks for the reminder though.

 

[0x000000]

2 years? HD3000 was last year, HD4000 is this year, HD5000 is next year. So 2.5x is one year. HD4000 is about 40% faster than HD3000. That's another year. We have not seen the kind of gains in IGPs year over year like we're seeing in Haswell, it truly is bringing us closer to actual low-end IGPs.

Yes, I'm well aware of Moore's law. I have a degree in computer science and have been writing software for embedded medical systems for about 15 years now. Thanks for the reminder though.

Yeah sorry, I was somehow under the impression we had the HD4000 for two years