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Any way to run a USB Gen 2x2 drive at full speed on a mac?

chfilm

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Nov 15, 2012
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Berlin
Hey, i have a Samsung T9 SSD here which supports up to 2000mb/s but only via usb 3 gen 2x2. What an idiotic specification is that even! I wasn't aware that Apple only supports USB 3 Gen 2 and this drive only runs at 900 mb/s even on the latest m4max.

Is there a way, maybe via a thunderbolt hub, to use these drives at full speed?
 
Thunderbolt 4 uses 'USB tunnelling', so everything USB-C connected to a TB4 dock is still controlled by the host computer.
The TB3 specification uses local USB 3.* controllers in the dock, but their design dates from long before USB 3.2 Gen 2x2, and the dock designs are all quite old now, so I don't expect any existing TB3 docks to give more than USB 3.2 Gen 2 10 Gbps.

That's all theory, as I have never used cutting edge USB with my Macs, and the 20gbps speed is 'optional' for USB4, so unimplemented by Apple...
Apple is Thunderbolt oriented, and their focus on TB started before even USB 3.0.

Whether TB5 changes anything? Who knows.
Apple is still listing their TB5 Macs as supporting:
  • Thunderbolt 5 (up to 120Gb/s)
  • Thunderbolt 4 (up to 40Gb/s)
  • USB 4 (up to 40Gb/s)
So no change to their USB support anytime soon.
 
Last edited:
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Because even the Thunderbolt 5 ports on the new Macs do not support USB 3.2 gen 2x2 either, for faster external SSD speeds, people are getting Thunderbolt 3 or USB 4 drives. It seems a bit too early at this point for Thunderbolt 5 drives, but they do already exist. Unfortunately, the Thunderbolt 3 and USB 4 drives are not as light and cool running as the Samsung T9.
 
EugW said:
Because even the Thunderbolt 5 ports on the new Macs do not support USB 3.2 gen 2x2 either, for faster external SSD speeds, people are getting Thunderbolt 3 or USB 4 drives. It seems a bit too early at this point for Thunderbolt 5 drives, but they do already exist. Unfortunately, the Thunderbolt 3 and USB 4 drives are not as light and cool running as the Samsung T9.
Click to expand...
Damn, this is so frustrating!
 
Put a USB 3.2 gen 2x2 controller in a Thunderbolt PCIe expansion chassis such as one from Sonnet or OWC.
The last time I tried this, macOS wouldn't use the 20 Gbps mode. I haven't tried this with the latest macOS yet.
 
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Tried it now with a Mac mini 2018 and Sequoia 15.0. It seems to work fine.
I'm using an ASMedia ASM3242 from StarTech. https://www.startech.com/en-ca/cards-adapters/pexusb321c

I have it installed in a Sonnet Echo Express III-D (Thunderbolt 3 Edition). A single PCIe slot enclosure would be less expensive. The half height Sonnet Echo Express SEL is sufficient since the StarTech includes a half height back plate.

The Sonnet is connected to a CalDigit Thunderbolt 4 Hub since the Sonnet is far away from my Mac mini. The benchmark shows numbers greater than USB 3.2 gen 2x1.

I suppose the benchmark would be slightly faster if the Sonnet were connected directly to the Mac mini.

USB 3.2 gen 2x2 20 Gbps.pngMushkin 4TB in SIIG USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 enclosure.png
 
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Also works in Sonoma 14.7 but not Ventura 13.7 or Monterey 12.7.6 or Big Sur 11.7.10. Catalina 10.15.7 will see the drive as a USB 2.0 drive.
 
joevt said:
Tried it now with a Mac mini 2018 and Sequoia 15.0. It seems to work fine.
I'm using an ASMedia ASM3242 from StarTech. https://www.startech.com/en-ca/cards-adapters/pexusb321c

I have it installed in a Sonnet Echo Express III-D (Thunderbolt 3 Edition). A single PCIe slot enclosure would be less expensive. The half height Sonnet Echo Express SEL is sufficient since the StarTech includes a half height back plate.

The Sonnet is connected to a CalDigit Thunderbolt 4 Hub since the Sonnet is far away from my Mac mini. The benchmark shows numbers greater than USB 3.2 gen 2x1.

I suppose the benchmark would be slightly faster if the Sonnet were connected directly to the Mac mini.

View attachment 2455822View attachment 2455820
Click to expand...
Ha, you're the man, you went to great lenghts to get this to work. Sigh, I guess it will be cheaper to just buy new ssds!
 
To run a USB Gen 2x2 drive at full speed on a Mac, you’ll need a USB-C port that supports USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 (20Gbps). Unfortunately, most Macs only support USB 3.2 Gen 2 (10Gbps). To achieve full speed, you can use a Thunderbolt 3/4 dock or adapter that explicitly supports USB 3.2 Gen 2x2. Check your Mac’s specs or use a compatible external hub.
 
MiaGrayson said:
To run a USB Gen 2x2 drive at full speed on a Mac, you’ll need a USB-C port that supports USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 (20Gbps). Unfortunately, most Macs only support USB 3.2 Gen 2 (10Gbps). To achieve full speed, you can use a Thunderbolt 3/4 dock or adapter that explicitly supports USB 3.2 Gen 2x2. Check your Mac’s specs or use a compatible external hub.
Click to expand...
very clever ;) Are you aware of ANY TH hub that supports usb 3.2 gen 2x2? because I'm not.
 
MiaGrayson said:
To run a USB Gen 2x2 drive at full speed on a Mac, you’ll need a USB-C port that supports USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 (20Gbps). Unfortunately, most Macs only support USB 3.2 Gen 2 (10Gbps). To achieve full speed, you can use a Thunderbolt 3/4 dock or adapter that explicitly supports USB 3.2 Gen 2x2. Check your Mac’s specs or use a compatible external hub.
Click to expand...
Are there any docks that support USB Gen 2x2? I suppose a Thunderbolt 5 dock could do it since it will probably have an Intel Thunderbolt 5 controller that supports USB 3.2 gen 2x2 at least from the downstream Thunderbolt 5 ports but only if USB tunnelling is not used since all Apple Macs have USB controllers that support only USB 3.1 gen 2. If Apple doesn't disable USB tunnelling to Thunderbolt 5 docks then you need to put a Thunderbolt 3 device between the Mac and the Thunderbolt 4/5 dock to disable USB tunnelling. With USB tunnelling disabled, USB will originate from the USB controller of the Thunderbolt 5 dock's Thunderbolt controller instead of from the USB controller of the Mac. This way, you can get USB 3.2 gen 2x2 from the Thunderbolt 5 dock (if the dock supports it). However, you will not get the 80 or 120 Gbps of Thunderbolt 5 from the Mac.
 
chfilm said:
OWC told me that their TB5 dock won't support it :(
Click to expand...
Do they actually know what they're talking about?
Did they say why not?
Did they actually try it?
What setups did they try?
What part of my explanation is incorrect?
Are they not using an Intel Thunderbolt 5 controller in the Thunderbolt 5 dock?
Do Intel Thunderbolt 5 controllers not include a USB 3.2 gen 2x2 controller?
Will the Thunderbolt 5 dock not work with a Thunderbolt 3 device between the Apple Silicon Mac and the Thunderbolt 5 dock?
Does Apple not have an XHCI driver on Apple Silicon Macs that supports USB 3.2 gen 2x2? They do for Intel Macs for the ASMedia ASM3242. Maybe they don't for the Intel Thunderbolt 5 controller?
 
List of Barlow Ridge PCI ids at https://admin.pci-ids.ucw.cz/read/PC/8086
You see there is one for a "Thunderbolt USB Controller [Barlow Ridge Hub 40G 2023]". This is probably the USB XHCI controller of the Thunderbolt 5 hubs/docks which should get used if USB tunnelling is not supported.
 
joevt said:
Do they actually know what they're talking about?
Did they say why not?
Did they actually try it?
What setups did they try?
What part of my explanation is incorrect?
Are they not using an Intel Thunderbolt 5 controller in the Thunderbolt 5 dock?
Do Intel Thunderbolt 5 controllers not include a USB 3.2 gen 2x2 controller?
Will the Thunderbolt 5 dock not work with a Thunderbolt 3 device between the Apple Silicon Mac and the Thunderbolt 5 dock?
Does Apple not have an XHCI driver on Apple Silicon Macs that supports USB 3.2 gen 2x2? They do for Intel Macs for the ASMedia ASM3242. Maybe they don't for the Intel Thunderbolt 5 controller?
Click to expand...
Idk, they just wrote: "Thank you for reaching out to OWC. The OWC Thunderbolt 5 Hub features a USB 3.2 Gen 2 port that supports speeds of up to 10Gb/s."
 
joevt said:
Do they actually know what they're talking about?
Did they say why not?
Did they actually try it?
What setups did they try?
What part of my explanation is incorrect?
Are they not using an Intel Thunderbolt 5 controller in the Thunderbolt 5 dock?
Do Intel Thunderbolt 5 controllers not include a USB 3.2 gen 2x2 controller?
Will the Thunderbolt 5 dock not work with a Thunderbolt 3 device between the Apple Silicon Mac and the Thunderbolt 5 dock?
Does Apple not have an XHCI driver on Apple Silicon Macs that supports USB 3.2 gen 2x2? They do for Intel Macs for the ASMedia ASM3242. Maybe they don't for the Intel Thunderbolt 5 controller?
Click to expand...
thanks, I'll forward these questions to them!
 
"Thank you for contacting OWC. The OWC Thunderbolt 5 Hub supports USB 3.2 Gen2x2 (USB A or USB C)

The OWC Thunderbolt 5 Hub includes connections for USB A (USB 3.2 Gen 2) with speeds of up to 10Gb/s, and USB C devices can connect to the hub's Thunderbolt port.

Please click the link below for more information about the Thunderbolt 5 hub.
https://eshop.macsales.com/manuals/owc-thunderbolt-5-hub-support-manual
Apple Silicon Macs, including the M1, M2, and M3 models, do not support USB 3.2 Gen 2x2, which allows for data transfer speeds of up to 20 Gbps. Instead, these Macs are limited to USB 3.2 Gen 2 speeds, which max out at 10 Gbps. This limitation has been confirmed across various discussions and technical specifications."

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/255300249?sortBy=best

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253376420?answerId=256318714022&page=1&sortBy=oldest_first


Our Thunderbolt devices including the dock/hub will work with a machine with native Thunderbolt ports (Macs and PC)."
 
chfilm said:
"Thank you for contacting OWC. The OWC Thunderbolt 5 Hub supports USB 3.2 Gen2x2 (USB A or USB C)
Click to expand...
A USB type A port cannot support USB 3.2 1x2 or 2x2 modes. It can only support 1x1 or 2x1 modes.
A USB type C port is required for x2 modes.

chfilm said:
The OWC Thunderbolt 5 Hub includes connections for USB A (USB 3.2 Gen 2) with speeds of up to 10Gb/s, and USB C devices can connect to the hub's Thunderbolt port.
Click to expand...
Yup. But what USB speeds do the Thunderbolt 5 ports support?

chfilm said:
Please click the link below for more information about the Thunderbolt 5 hub.
https://eshop.macsales.com/manuals/owc-thunderbolt-5-hub-support-manual
Click to expand...
Insufficient information. It doesn't mention the USB 3.2 Gen2x2 capability of the downstream Thunderbolt 5 ports or what conditions will utilize USB 3.2 Gen2x2 speed.

chfilm said:
Apple Silicon Macs, including the M1, M2, and M3 models, do not support USB 3.2 Gen 2x2, which allows for data transfer speeds of up to 20 Gbps. Instead, these Macs are limited to USB 3.2 Gen 2 speeds, which max out at 10 Gbps. This limitation has been confirmed across various discussions and technical specifications."

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/255300249?sortBy=best

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253376420?answerId=256318714022&page=1&sortBy=oldest_first
Click to expand...
Yes, the Mac hardware doesn't support USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 speed.

But what about the Mac OS? They don't say that you cannot connect a USB 3.2 gen2x2 XHCI PCIe card or a Thunderbolt 5 device to get USB 3.2 gen2x2 speeds.

chfilm said:
Our Thunderbolt devices including the dock/hub will work with a machine with native Thunderbolt ports (Macs and PC)."
Click to expand...
So maybe you can connect a Thunderbolt 5 dock to a Thunderbolt 3 Mac or Thunderbolt 3 dock to get USB 3.2 gen2x2 speed.
 
smirking said:
Edited: Nevermind, I just saw you ran some tests. That's wild it worked for you. Nobody else seems to be able to get anything beyond 10Gb/s speeds.
Click to expand...
I did not run tests for an Apple Silicon Mac though. Just Intel Mac.
 
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