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In my opinion the Surface isn't enough of a tablet to effectively go up against real tablets. When the thing is packaged with a keyboard and is built so that you prop it up as a screen instead of hold it and use it like a tablet, you can only question when it stops being a tablet and turns into a gimmicky notebook.

I've said this before, but does having a bluetooth keyboard and the smartcover prop up your ipad make it any less of a tablet? Just because you have the option, doesn't mean it directly relies on it for basic functionality. It's there for when you want to do some indepth typing, or prop up the tablet.

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I'm typing this on a Surface - it is not a tablet. It has touch screen functions as much so as a laptop with Windows 8 has touch screen on it. As a tablet, it is awful. Ergonomically awful, horrible pixel density, strange touch behaviors, impossible to use onscreen keyboard - complete lack of apps.

If you take the keyboard off and use it as a tablet, then it's a tablet. Everything else is exaggeration.

Like what's so much worse about the onscreen keyboard than the one on the iPad?

Awful horrible pixel density? It's about 155 PPI, give or take. Not as high as the iPad, no. But awful? Hardly. We've been getting by on 72-100 PPI for years and years now. Retina displays might make them look pale by comparison, but they're suddenly no longer usable.

Strange touch behaviors? Like using three fingers and swiping upwards to access the app tray is so much easier than swiping from the edge of the screen to flip through apps like cards. There's nothing inherently more difficult to use on the Surface touchwise than the iPad.

Ergonomics? ....maybe. I'm not totally sold on a widescreen tablet myself. I don't think it's terrible, but I'm wondering if it's as comfortable to hold as an iPad.

App selection? It's got a healthy number of them, though nowhere near the selection you get on the App Store yet. This is true.

Really, it sounds less like you've had a bad experience, and more like you just don't want to like the thing.
 
After seeing some of the commercials, and reading reviews, I have no plans to do so.

Commercials are pushing that they have a keyboard, so you can prop it up on a table and have a keyboard. If THAT is important enough for you, then why not buy an Air? Slim, better keyboard, and more apps than the RT version. As for portability, at least the iPad offers an LTE version, without having to either hotspot through your phone or buying a hotspot with the Surface.

Yes, I'll more than likely get a Surface Pro early next year. Why not buy an Air? The Surface Pro will have a higher resolution screen, a touch screen, the Windows software back catalogue, the often superior Windows versions of software (e.g. StarCraft 2 performs far better on Windows than it does on OS X) and will have the full compliment of touch screen apps from the Windows Store. To be fair, the Windows software advantage can be eliminated by installing Windows on a MacBook Air, but it can't turn the Air into a touch screen device. ;)
 
Hell yes! Currently on a Samsung windows 8 Pro tablet and can't believe how incredible it is. This tablet will go to my wife when the surface pro gets released.
 
I was, but it has gotten many bad reviews, no apps and apps take much more time to open than on iPad or Android.

Besides, buying the product now is like betting. We don't know if in one year it will turn out to be a success or something like the zune.

That's why now I'm looking at the iPad 4 or nexus 7 or 10.
 
There has to be a good selection of quality apps/software before I will consider a purchase.

Software is just as important as hardware, if not more. You need both.

Until them, i'm fine with using my desktop for productivity, and my iPod Touch for apps and mobile tasks.
 
I checked one out today at the MS store and I was impressed with it.
It's really a decent tablet for people considering an iPad.
The great thing about it is that it comes with Office and can be used to easily made/edit office docs without the need to go to a full PC/MAC.

For those that are arguing that it's better to get an Mac Air, the surface is not a laptop replacement. These are the same arguments people used when the iPad first came out. The surface is a tablet that also has some additional features like Office usability. I know people are gonna say that the iPad can also edit some office docs, but that is no way a real comparison.
Surface is much better in that department. I believe the next version will have a better screen along with more features too.

In any case it is a good product for many.
 
I checked one out today at the MS store and I was impressed with it.
It's really a decent tablet for people considering an iPad.
The great thing about it is that it comes with Office and can be used to easily made/edit office docs without the need to go to a full PC/MAC.

For those that are arguing that it's better to get an Mac Air, the surface is not a laptop replacement. These are the same arguments people used when the iPad first came out. The surface is a tablet that also has some additional features like Office usability. I know people are gonna say that the iPad can also edit some office docs, but that is no way a real comparison.
Surface is much better in that department. I believe the next version will have a better screen along with more features too.

In any case it is a good product for many.
How is the performance? A lot of reviewers are saying it's slow.
 
My previous laptop (before my current MBP) was a TabletPC edition. I found that, with PC software, tablet mode wasn't that useful for me. Mainly for reading magazines on the computer.

For tablet mode, the surface will be MUCH better than that laptop. Weight and battery life.

I guess it depends on how well the metro software works. The thing I worry about is that too many people will take advantage of a keyboard, and not be touch friendly enough.
 
Bought one and I like it a lot. Essentially shelved my iPad and go for the Surface all the time now. Going to pick up the Surface Pro when it drops and give the Surface RT to my GF.
 
How is the performance? A lot of reviewers are saying it's slow.

I didn't notice any slowness. One thing to take note is that the display units have been used by many new people that have openend every application.
I didn't know how to turn them off so I'm sure that it could have effected the performance.
 
I'm trying a Samsung SmartPC 500T tablet with the new Clovertrail processor.
That device has just amazing battery life, probably longer than the Surface,
and you get to run windows programs too, not just RT.

Downside compared to the iPad or Surface RT is the size.
Not sure way Samsung chose 11.6" 16:9 just too big to enjoy using in tablet mode for long periods.

Docked with the keyboard and using the full Win 8 desktop is fine.
Rather have the 500T traditional keyboard than the Surface touch too.

Wish they had made the 500T 4:3 with a 2048x1536 display ,
it would be an iPad killer then, for those who want to run windows anyhow.
 
I have no interest in buying one, but a friend of mine might be. He's a Ford technician and wants to be able to access some special Ford sites. His iPad cannot display them, presumably because of Flash, however he bought the Galaxy Nexus 7 and that wouldn't work either. Apparently they geared the site to work with Microsoft stuff only.

The only disadvantage of the Surface is it has no cellular option and I'm not sure if he has WiFi in the shop or not.

I've heard the Surface is touch and go with flash as well. It's not fully compatible and websites have to be on Microsoft's approved list or something like that.
 
I've heard the Surface is touch and go with flash as well. It's not fully compatible and websites have to be on Microsoft's approved list or something like that.

For the RT that may be true AND from what I read it only applies to the metro version of IE10. From what I understand the desktop IE10 shouldn't have any issues with flash, but I don't known that first hand. What I do know first hand is that on the Pro models Flash works perfectly, at least in the desktop browser. The metro browser is completely useless IMO.
 
I've said this before, but does having a bluetooth keyboard and the smartcover prop up your ipad make it any less of a tablet? Just because you have the option, doesn't mean it directly relies on it for basic functionality. It's there for when you want to do some indepth typing, or prop up the tablet.

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If you take the keyboard off and use it as a tablet, then it's a tablet. Everything else is exaggeration.

Like what's so much worse about the onscreen keyboard than the one on the iPad?

Awful horrible pixel density? It's about 155 PPI, give or take. Not as high as the iPad, no. But awful? Hardly. We've been getting by on 72-100 PPI for years and years now. Retina displays might make them look pale by comparison, but they're suddenly no longer usable.

Strange touch behaviors? Like using three fingers and swiping upwards to access the app tray is so much easier than swiping from the edge of the screen to flip through apps like cards. There's nothing inherently more difficult to use on the Surface touchwise than the iPad.

Ergonomics? ....maybe. I'm not totally sold on a widescreen tablet myself. I don't think it's terrible, but I'm wondering if it's as comfortable to hold as an iPad.

App selection? It's got a healthy number of them, though nowhere near the selection you get on the App Store yet. This is true.

Really, it sounds less like you've had a bad experience, and more like you just don't want to like the thing.

I'm with Noisemaker. Everything MS is doing is promoting Surface as a netbook/laptop. The idea of running full MS programs, which of course are not made to be touch screen compatible/effective, is only for use as a laptop. That's the selling feature so many (Spinedoc, I'm pointing at you) use, then add "of course you can take the keyboard off and use it as a tablet too" kind of as an afterthought. An afterthought is exactly what it is.

I'm ok with that, but then just be honest about it. It's a thin and light small screened laptop that also happens to be a touchscreen tablet (minus the apps built around using it this way). The iPad wasn't designed to be a small screen-only form factor laptop. Apps have been designed to use it in the way that it was intended (holding it and using your fingers to swipe, point and type). Just watch the commercial for the Surface - it's all about using the kickstand and keyboard. It's a fricking small screened laptop. Woohoo!
 
I'm with Noisemaker. Everything MS is doing is promoting Surface as a netbook/laptop. The idea of running full MS programs, which of course are not made to be touch screen compatible/effective, is only for use as a laptop. That's the selling feature so many (Spinedoc, I'm pointing at you) use, then add "of course you can take the keyboard off and use it as a tablet too" kind of as an afterthought. An afterthought is exactly what it is.

I'm ok with that, but then just be honest about it. It's a thin and light small screened laptop that also happens to be a touchscreen tablet (minus the apps built around using it this way). The iPad wasn't designed to be a small screen-only form factor laptop. Apps have been designed to use it in the way that it was intended (holding it and using your fingers to swipe, point and type). Just watch the commercial for the Surface - it's all about using the kickstand and keyboard. It's a fricking small screened laptop. Woohoo!

Why is it an afterthought? You are not proving your point very well with all due respect. There are no programs which are meant to be only used on a laptop IMO. I've already stated how easy it is to use Photoshop in desktop mode while on the tablet for example, using the S-pen on my Samsung device. I don't think you get more "desktopish" than Photoshop. How about Office, once again I can easily be MUCH more productive in tablet mode. Now if I want to go laptop mode, which is silly to even call it that, what you refer to is simply connecting to a keyboard, I can simply connect a bluetooth keyboard and voila, a laptop.

The one thing you are correct about is that the ipad was NOT designed to be used in the same way. The ipad is a tablet and ONLY a tablet, you can shoehorn it into a laptop but it will still remain heavily shoehorned. The difference on the win PRO devices is they are not being shoehorned, they ARE truly full windows devices. I am very confused why this obvious point isn't clicking with you. You keep clinging to the small screen/touch interface thing, but once again the beauty is connecting a large screen right to it, connecting a keyboard, mouse etc. when you need that functionality, and when you need to travel you can unplug it all and simply put your ENTIRE computer under your arm and travel with it, that's what is amazing about this paradigm shift Microsoft has introduced.
 
The one thing you are correct about is that the ipad was NOT designed to be used in the same way. The ipad is a tablet and ONLY a tablet, you can shoehorn it into a laptop but it will still remain heavily shoehorned. The difference on the win PRO devices is they are not being shoehorned, they ARE truly full windows devices. I am very confused why this obvious point isn't clicking with you. You keep clinging to the small screen/touch interface thing, but once again the beauty is connecting a large screen right to it, connecting a keyboard, mouse etc. when you need that functionality, and when you need to travel you can unplug it all and simply put your ENTIRE computer under your arm and travel with it, that's what is amazing about this paradigm shift Microsoft has introduced.

People with laptops unplug everything and put their entire computer under their arm and travel with it.

iPads are full computers by any definition which isn't self-serving and selective.

There's no paradigm shift here at all.
 
People with laptops unplug everything and put their entire computer under their arm and travel with it.

iPads are full computers by any definition which isn't self-serving and selective.

There's no paradigm shift here at all.

Give me a 9mm thick laptop with a touchscreen and 14 hour battery life, yeah I thought so. If it wasn't a paradigm shift then the ipad would not be as incredibly popular as it is, doh?

iPads are computers, so is my the stereo in my car, what's your point? Shoehorning an ipad into the role of a desktop computer may work for some, but not for others. You can't shoehorn Windows into Windows, it is a full OS no matter what in regards to the Pro units. There is a huge difference for my needs, for others needs the difference may be of varying importance filtering all the way down to someone who only wants to consume media and nothing else. But IMO if you can consume media AND have a full OS with the same form factor, battery life and price then why would you sell yourself short?
 
Give me a 9mm thick laptop with a touchscreen and 14 hour battery life, yeah I thought so. If it wasn't a paradigm shift then the ipad would not be as incredibly popular as it is, doh?

It almost sounds like you are arguing that the iPad is popular in spite of itself, that it has sold millions despite all all its deficiencies, and that there's a significant demand to turn it into a laptop where you can remove the keyboard. I don't think Microsoft has introduced any sort of 'paradigm shift' and you still haven't convinced me of it. It's clearly a reactionary response to the iPad (which is what really transformed the market).
 
It almost sounds like you are arguing that the iPad is popular in spite of itself, that it has sold millions despite all all its deficiencies, and that there's a significant demand to turn it into a laptop where you can remove the keyboard. I don't think Microsoft has introduced any sort of 'paradigm shift' and you still haven't convinced me of it. It's clearly a reactionary response to the iPad (which is what really transformed the market).

Yes I do think in many ways the iPad is popular in spite of itself, in other ways it is pure genius and incredibly revolutionary. iOS is a product of not having the technology to put OSx into a tablet, IMO it all goes back to this. The paradigm shift happened when the ipad exploded, similar to the paradigm shift of desktop to laptop. If you can't see the paradigm shift towards tablets then I'd be rude to call you blind, but obviously Tablets are selling in incredible numbers. What Microsoft is doing, admittedly with piss poor execution, is reuniting computer users with their OS. Instead of a "post PC" era the ipad introduced us to the "yet another device and different OS I have to lug around" era, but it had to be that way due to technology. Now that technology has caught up and we can truly have a real OS on a tablet I think people will appreciate and like that. It doesn't mean the ipad won't be wildly popular anymore, it's still a fashion statement and is great at media consumption, but I think more and more consumers will look at their computer at home and wonder why they can't just take that with them instead of iOS.

As for convincing, meh it's overrated I could care less. I rather enjoy the interesting conversation more than anything else. In the end no one can predict the future, It's just a very interesting time to live in. Who knows who will be the next Apple and come up with something else and everything we all thought will once again be turned onto its head.
 
Why is it an afterthought? You are not proving your point very well with all due respect. There are no programs which are meant to be only used on a laptop IMO. I've already stated how easy it is to use Photoshop in desktop mode while on the tablet for example, using the S-pen on my Samsung device. I don't think you get more "desktopish" than Photoshop. How about Office, once again I can easily be MUCH more productive in tablet mode. Now if I want to go laptop mode, which is silly to even call it that, what you refer to is simply connecting to a keyboard, I can simply connect a bluetooth keyboard and voila, a laptop.

The one thing you are correct about is that the ipad was NOT designed to be used in the same way. The ipad is a tablet and ONLY a tablet, you can shoehorn it into a laptop but it will still remain heavily shoehorned. The difference on the win PRO devices is they are not being shoehorned, they ARE truly full windows devices. I am very confused why this obvious point isn't clicking with you. You keep clinging to the small screen/touch interface thing, but once again the beauty is connecting a large screen right to it, connecting a keyboard, mouse etc. when you need that functionality, and when you need to travel you can unplug it all and simply put your ENTIRE computer under your arm and travel with it, that's what is amazing about this paradigm shift Microsoft has introduced.

The paradigm shift happened already with the introduction of the iPad. What MS is trying to do is go backwards, not forwards. They want to you and everyone else to keep using their desktop OS because that's what they know. They've clearly convinced you that is the way forward. And my point, if I haven't been clear, is that a desktop/laptop program is not designed around a touchscreen device, but MS wants you to use them this way, because what they really created was simply a laptop with detachable screen.

And if you think consumers have been enamored with their crappy home pc's to the point where they want to take them with them everywhere, you must be living in another universe, because that's not what I'm hearing or seeing from people. I hear things like "I just want to be able to have my emails, pictures, music, documents, calendars, etc accessible on whatever device I use". That doesn't mean people want the OS to be the same or even that they give a hoot about the OS at all. I'll make a generalization here, but most people, I believe, just want things to work. That's what Apple has been providing and MS is struggling to get to that point. That's been the basic difference between Mac and PC over the years.
 
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The paradigm shift happened already with the introduction of the iPad. What MS is trying to do is go backwards, not forwards. They want to you and everyone else to keep using their desktop OS because that's what they know. They've clearly convinced you that is the way forward. And my point, if I haven't been clear, is that a desktop/laptop program is not designed around a touchscreen device, but MS wants you to use them this way, because what they really created was simply a laptop with detachable screen.

And if you think consumers have been enamored with their crappy home pc's to the point where they want to take them with them everywhere, you must be living in another universe, because that's not what I'm hearing or seeing from people. I hear things like "I just want to be able to have my emails, pictures, music, documents, calendars, etc accessible on whatever device I use". That doesn't mean people want the OS to be the same or even that they give a hoot about the OS at all. I'll make a generalization here, but most people, I believe, just want things to work. That's what Apple has been providing and MS is struggling to get to that point. That's been the basic difference between Mac and PC over the years.

Certainly the paradigm shift happened with the ipad, I think I said that about 10 times. Apple deserves credit for single handedly causing that paradigm shift.

Programs can be designed for both touchscreen and traditional mouse keyboard use. There are a lot of laptops and even desktops which are coming out now that have touchscreens and the possibilities are infinite. The problem is that Microsoft is doing a piss poor job of integrating touch with traditional computing, the idea is sound but the execution is horrible. You keep trying to split up tablets and laptops, but the point is that you can have them BOTH. I understand the software is still very young at this point, but when iOS first came out no one ever imagined what it would be capable of a couple of years later. There is a divide between touchscreen programs with big buttons and sliders, and desktop programs, but worrying about this is a serious lack of foresight. Certainly software developers will strive to unify the experience in meaningful ways. Windows 8 is trying to do that, even Apple is trying to do that in incorporating iOS elements into OSx, you don't think they see the writing on the wall? It will take time as people catch on, but the UI will evolve into something which allows both touch and traditional computing to make sense at the same time. You sound like someone in the 90s saying "Laptops will never catch on".

As for wanting a simple, or better termed "dumb" tablet, I don't understand that argument. A windows tablet will easily fill that "dumb tablet" role for the SAME price, size and battery life, but you also get a full OS if that's what you want. I can set up my Windows tablet to just watch videos, pictures, music, etc and do it just as easily as the ipad, along with cloud capabilities. Basically there is nothing the ipad can do that a windows tablet cannot do just as easily, but the reverse does not hold true. At this point it's mainly a fashion show, it's much more trendy and cool to have an Apple product than to have a MS product, this is evidenced by sales of something as lackluster as the ipad mini for example.

As for PC versus Mac and things "just working", that's such a fantasy I won't even go into it that much. I'm assuming you meant PC versus iOS though, but even then I don't get it. In my experience with a windows 8 tablet everything "just worked" just as much as it did with my ipad which choked on web pages, didn't run flash, etc etc. This is a fantasy that is perpetuated by fanboys which is just not true.

What MS is doing IS the way forward. The ipad will forever remain something which introduced another OS and another device to carry around, instead of consolidating existing devices it created another one. What I hear, if you want to give weight to anecdotal evidence, is why can't I take notes on this thing? Why can't I edit my Office documents on this thing in a productive way? Why can't I draw on this thing? Why can't I run photoshop on this thing? Why can't I run Windows software on this thing? But someone with a Win8 tablet will never say Why can't I look at pictures, why can't I watch movies, why can't I listen to music, because they can. So if your argument is that the ipad is more functional then I challenge you to tell me what the ipad can do that a windows tablet can't do.

Now with that said the caveat here is that MS is really really borking their chances with an unfinished OS and a fragmented market with RT. The strategy is sound, but they may end up failing because of their execution. At the end of the day a windows tablet may not be for you, you may prefer the "dumb" tablet execution of purely media consumption, but as you've already admitted you don't even own an ipad so you can't even anecdotally make a case either way, especially if you haven't even tried a windows tablet.
 
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The worst thing about the iPad is iOS! Its SOOO limiting you need to own a PC/Mac as part of its own function....not so much after iOS 5. This is one of the main reasons I went with an Android tablet. I have access to a file system and can download anything. Only thing I've ever connected it to my computer for is rooting reasons initially....

Generally I just dock it connected to my TV then use a blue tooth keyboard/mouse from the couch...

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I like the full OS direction MS is going....
 
I disagree - the idea of creating apps that are both touchscreen and traditional keyboard and mouse is not something that makes any sense. You type on a flat horizontal plane and it is not natural or even physically easy to shift from typing to screen touches.

You can argue otherwise, but until you can show me how your fingers are able to grow and shrink as they move from horizontal to vertical touch, I won't believe it.

And as far as iOS and your former iPad choking on websites and not running flash, those are not incidents related to problems with iOS or the iPad. They're crappy coding by lazy developers and designers.

The idea that the iPad is a dumb tablet, is your opinion based upon what? That you couldn't run what apps or programs? Please be specific? If you mean it can't run full windows programs, you're again missing the point of what the iPad was designed to do. It's not, nor does it need to be, a full on keyboard driven computer. Apps are supposed to be created to fully use the touch interface and MS is simply trying to buy time with their two OS surface, for developers to re-write MS apps to be touch driven.
 
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