Anyone else dying for new apps that DONT require close proximity to cell tower/wifi?

[diamond.g]

What do you mean? How can an overcrowded island with six million people (all of them wearing black so they won't stand out) be a bad place to live?

Naw, it keeps coming back to people wanting apps that don't require a connection. And not just the ones that Apple will be giving or selling.

Man, I'd love to be a fly in Jobs' office. He's got to be kicking the walls, because he doesn't want to give in. I foresee some sort of compromise, with saved web pages but still perhaps no or very limited local data storage.

What do others think?

I would be wary of saving web apps for the time being. With the root password known and there being known attack vectors for Safari, it may not be too long before "proof of concept" viruses and hacks are seen in the wild. Something I wonder is if the iPhone has a bootloader mode (kinda like Palm does) where it will blindly accept ROM code even if the system it self is FUBAR'ed.

I don't think it is Jobs or Apple alone, that is limiting the 3rd party development. I'm not sure how it is done with Palm, Windows Mobile and Blackberry as I haven't followed the traditional smartphone marketplace. But I do know that for "regular" phones the cell providers tightly control what gets on the handsets.

Last year I purchased a decent camera phone from Verizon. It was a $99 phone that was capabile of viewing video via VCAST, playing Madden 3D and tons of other games. So there was some power there. I was shocked to find there was no simple small database app for the phone. I thought I'd be able to download a shareware app and install it on the phone. Nope. No chance. I learned that Verizon tightly controls the developer community and controls certification for all applications that go on the handsets.

One of the reasons for this is the cell providers fears of the first mobile phone virus. They are scared to death of something getting on their network and causing havoc. Jobs mentioned this in so many words a few times. You don't want a third party app to crash and cause your phone to no longer work. More importantly, AT&T doesn't want some malware destroying their network or using it to send millions of spam or whatever.

AT&T and Apple need to develop a new certification process for iPhone OS apps. This is the first time this OS has been used on a phone. Once they pin down the SDK, the testing and certification process, then we will see apps. I'd bet the first few apps we see are games, similar to the iPod.

I'm sure there are other reasons but this one can't be overlooked. We just need to be paitent. Third party apps will come and they will be awesome.

Most "regular" cell phones that I know of have two ways of running apps. Either via Java (J2ME) which is a pretty good sandbox, or via actually running on the Hardware. The second option usually requires access to ROM's due to there being (that I know of) no way of actually getting the software on the system (no plugging in the phone to usb and snooping the FS doesn't count). The first option can require application signing or not, that depends on the Telco.

Palm, MS, Symbian are different animals, those systems are expected to be open for software installation. The Telco's can't reasonably lock them down due to thier intended use. I would hope that Apple falls into this bunch, especially after fixing the root issue.

 

[defeated]

Most "regular" cell phones that I know of have two ways of running apps. Either via Java (J2ME) which is a pretty good sandbox, or via actually running on the Hardware. The second option usually requires access to ROM's due to there being (that I know of) no way of actually getting the software on the system (no plugging in the phone to usb and snooping the FS doesn't count). The first option can require application signing or not, that depends on the Telco.

Palm, MS, Symbian are different animals, those systems are expected to be open for software installation. The Telco's can't reasonably lock them down due to thier intended use. I would hope that Apple falls into this bunch, especially after fixing the root issue.

palm, AFAIK, supports both mode, and i hope apple do the same, think about it, it has a 700mb OS in there, such a waste if it runs no 3rd party apps at OS level

 

[mcdj]

Ok what about this...and I admittedly know squat about Ajax...couldn't Apple meet the developers half way for now, and let folks at least create a place to store Ajax apps for offline access?

 

[woodbutcher]

You should be more worried about someone jacking your iphone in the new york subway. Apple is doing you a favor, if you could play a game you would have your iphone out, and exposed. Like advertising it to thieves.


Warning: This post contains extreme sarcasm, The author of this post assumes no responsibility for your lack of a sense of humor

 

[whooleytoo]

They're definitely gonna have to give in. The ability to play one measly game (and a knockoff at that) offline, and only by pre-loading it, is really kinda sad and pathetic for a $600 phone, especially coming from a company like Apple.

The security thing must be a ruse. Apple has touted the security of OSX for years, but now you can't play a game on a device that supposedly runs OSX because of security concerns? I think they just ran out time before June 29th and chalked it up to security.

It's perfect really, because if/when they do open up to developers, SJ can say "We've been working day and night to make the iPhone secure, and we did it! Presenting iPhone iApps!" Everyone will cheer, more iPhones will be sold, we'll all get that warm fuzzy feeling and there will probably be lemonade.

I agree. Simply put: Apple didn't need 3rd party support for the iPhone to be a launch success.

Why not hold off on announcing a iPhone SDK for a 'big bang' announcement to give iPhone sales a jolt. Even with all the 3rd party apps in the world, there's a very limited number of people who can buy the iPhone right now, AT&T customers and US non-AT&T customers who are out-of-contract. So you might as well hold off on the big announcement to coincide with the iPhone reaching a larger audience - the Euro or Asian launches would be perfect.

Plus, there's also the factor that if Apple announced an SDK, the iPhone would be judged less on its own merits and judged more on the 3rd party support - which is entirely out of Apple's control. And Apple, being a solutions company, wouldn't like that at all.

 

[diamond.g]

Plus, there's also the factor that if Apple announced an SDK, the iPhone would be judged less on its own merits and judged more on the 3rd party support - which is entirely out of Apple's control. And Apple, being a solutions company, wouldn't like that at all.

And this doesn't affect Apples' Mac how? It too is judged based on 3rd party support.

 

[winterstate]

.

 

[kdarling]

Regarding regular phone apps vs PDAs.

Regular phones don't usually come with computer cables. They download their apps over the air from the carrier, or from websites if the carrier allows it. (E.g. google maps app)

Carrier apps are written in Java, BREW or C for the Symbian OS. The apps are tested, signed, and then put up for download or sale. The advantages of carrier-locked apps are: the carrier makes a few bucks, the programmer makes a few bucks (without people being able to pirate his work), and it usually costs a bit to get into the development game, which keeps the casual hacker out. Note that the carrier is assuming some responsibility as well.

Crashing the network isn't a huge concern. I remember when the first wireless data started, we had an overload at one of the carriers because some nut in France decided to ping every IP address they had. So they just blocked the pings. No big deal.

In any case, cell PDAs are a different animal. They're a small personal computer, and owners can load any app they wish. If an app makes their phone unstable, they can unload the app.

So far, Apple is taking the unique tack of acting as if they were a carrier for a non-PDA phone. Actually they go even further. Not only do they control access to internal apps, they don't allow anyone else to write them.

A similar model has worked for cell phones for years (control over the internals). Jobs specifically declines to call iPhone a PDA. Jobs also originally said no third party apps. He sees it as a closed entertainment device. This is his perogative. He is under no obligation to open it up. It might even fall into the realm of wishful thinking to say he will change his mind.

Sales, I think, will determine his future course. As long as people continue to buy iPhones, and are willing to pay for a trickle of Apple widgets, why would he care? To him, it's an iPod, and doesn't need to be supported for apps. This is how it seems right now.

 

[kdarling]

Ok what about this...and I admittedly know squat about Ajax...couldn't Apple meet the developers half way for now, and let folks at least create a place to store Ajax apps for offline access?

Forget the catchphrase "Ajax apps". It's misused a lot. Just think of them as web pages you use in a browser. That's what they boil down to when compared to internal apps.

To answer your Q: yes, there could be an option to locally store a packaged web app with all its pages. And allow each app a user-configurable space for data storage. This could be an addition to iSafari.

I think we'll see such an option from hackers before we see it from Apple. That is, if iSafari hasn't been totally disabled from accessing local files. Hmm. Still, you could place a local web server onboard, and then Safari wouldn't know. Okay, so yes you could.

 

[poipu420]

i really would like to purchase the iphone, but waiting to see if third party apps can be installed. id really like to be able to install a bash terminal to ssh into my websites.

 

[kdarling]

They're definitely gonna have to give in. The ability to play one measly game (and a knockoff at that) offline, and only by pre-loading it, is really kinda sad and pathetic for a $600 phone, especially coming from a company like Apple.

(Not a comment to you. Just jumping in at a convenient spot.)

Well, so that's the million dollar question: What if Jobs decides that there never will be real third party applications? After all, that's exactly what he said. No one can say otherwise or complain, as so many are quick to point out. It is what it is.

So would y'all keep the phone if that were actually the way things end up? If all it got were bug fixes and a few new widgets now and then?

I think most would. I think most bought it for the fun, the glamour. I think most serious business users kept their old PDAs around... just in case.

What say all?

 

[wongulous]

It all makes sense now...

No apps == no offline apps == loading "web apps" == EDGE usage anywhere not at home/work/free WiFi == DATA PLAN == $ $ $

Of course.

 

[diamond.g]

(Not a comment to you. Just jumping in at a convenient spot.)

Well, so that's the million dollar question: What if Jobs decides that there never will be real third party applications? After all, that's exactly what he said. No one can say otherwise or complain, as so many are quick to point out. It is what it is.

So would y'all keep the phone if that were actually the way things end up? If all it got were bug fixes and a few new widgets now and then?

I think most would. I think most bought it for the fun, the glamour. I think most serious business users kept their old PDAs around... just in case.

What say all?

The hackers that have cracked the iPhone thus far will make sure there are a steady stream of apps for the thing once they get the compiler working reliably. Well them and anyone else that wants to compile apps.

Of course I doubt most of the folks here care enough.

 

[scriptkitten]

There is one tip that can help you get more documents on the iPhone. From a print dialog in Mac OS X, click the PDF button and then "Send PDF to iPhoto" you can then sync this to the iPhone's photo app. This is better than sending a doc via email because the images will be local. I did this with a powerpoint presentation and it worked great.

This is an awesome idea. Thank you for the constructive feedback.

It is funny that people say why doesn't the iPhone do things a 5 year old palm could do. I might ask why a big city like New York can't do the same thing as some 1 horse Podunk town in Texas can do? It is a wireless world. Perhaps it is time you find a real place to live.

Oy... lets see? Do terrorists and anarchists dream of using the underground public transportation in Podunk, TX to kill thousands of Americans? Do you really need to ask why NYC doesn't have cell coverage down in the subways?

It's actually more the illogic than the attitude that makes me respond.
You buy a multimedia powerhouse in a tiny package, then you complain you can't get a game of sodoku or tic-tac-toe or pong.
How about dropping a quarter in the stand and pick up a newspaper?

touche but I don't recall underground access to it being a selling point.

2 things, Sobe....
1. the only "illogic" here is Apple's decision to remove basic functionality from this "super Jesus phone" that almost every other cell phone on the market for the past 10 years has had.

2. underground, in the air, on a country road, up at the lake house... there are thousands of environments where an iPhone user could be without network service. We shouldn't have to be denied basic PDA, SMS outbox, and entertainment functions while our friends standing next to us with Blackberries and free Nokias can access plenty of offline apps. Sure, the iPhone is better than those other phones with the INTERNET when there IS access, but the reality of it is that 100% coverage does not exist. I love my iPhone and I'm not returning it tomorrow, but I am not so drunk on koolaid that i don't recognize that moving from Blackberry to iPhone was more of a "sideways move" than a clear "upgrade".

And no, I'm not a troll. I haven't been a super active member of the Mac online community in a few years, but I absolutely have a history here going back to Apple Demo Days and mid-90s e-zine evangelism.

I don't know, this thread keeps coming back to NY being a bad place to live.

NYC is the best place on earth. It's Disney for grown-ups! Plus we have the glass Apple store and free WIFI is practically everywhere (except the subway!)

What do you mean? How can an overcrowded island with six million people (all of them wearing black so they won't stand out) be a bad place to live?

*Looks down at bright blue silk mini dress and bronze metallic sandals.*

We wear a lot of black because its easy to match and never goes out of style and I'd wager to say that most of the 6 million are trying rather hard to GET noticed

You should be more worried about someone jacking your iphone in the new york subway. Apple is doing you a favor, if you could play a game you would have your iphone out, and exposed. Like advertising it to thieves.

i'm not too worried about this in manhattan, which is completely gentrified below about 96th st. everyone on the train is holding video ipods, those Playstations, blackberries, etc etc. I'm more likely to get some nerd drooling on my shoulder while he tries to catch a peek.

i did have to go to brooklyn with the phone on June 30th.. i pulled it out to make a call and a truck comes rumbling down the street and the guy inside puts his head out and yells "HEY IS THAT THE NEW IPHONE???". i admit i did get skeered for a minute. so i put it away and decided brooklyn wasn't ready for me and my iphone for at leasts a few more weeks.

 

[marksman]

All new York humor aside I suspect a 3rd party certification process that is very tight. Johnny college will not be whipping up apps in his dorm room. Those will have to be web-based.

 

[Sobe]

2 things, Sobe....
1. the only "illogic" here is Apple's decision to remove basic functionality from this "super Jesus phone" that almost every other cell phone on the market for the past 10 years has had.

2. underground, in the air, on a country road, up at the lake house... there are thousands of environments where an iPhone user could be without network service. We shouldn't have to be denied basic PDA, SMS outbox, and entertainment functions while our friends standing next to us with Blackberries and free Nokias can access plenty of offline apps. Sure, the iPhone is better than those other phones with the INTERNET when there IS access, but the reality of it is that 100% coverage does not exist. I love my iPhone and I'm not returning it tomorrow, but I am not so drunk on koolaid that i don't recognize that moving from Blackberry to iPhone was more of a "sideways move" than a clear "upgrade".

"We shouldn't be denied basic..." seriously listen to yourself. You sound like Fidel Castro circa 1956 or something.

It's a phone with known features when you purchased it.

This is like the girl who goes out with the guy who has problems then she wants to change him, then gets all mad at him for not changing. Meanwhile her friends tell her "you can't change him" and she gets mad at her friends too.

Iphone -- accept him as he is!

 

[defeated]

Those will have to be web-based.

"web based app" is such a misleading term. fortunately this computer world has real apps to entertain users.

 

[scriptkitten]

"We shouldn't be denied basic..." seriously listen to yourself. You sound like Fidel Castro circa 1956 or something.

It's a phone with known features when you purchased it.

This is like the girl who goes out with the guy who has problems then she wants to change him, then gets all mad at him for not changing. Meanwhile her friends tell her "you can't change him" and she gets mad at her friends too.

Iphone -- accept him as he is!

It is true that I knew what suite of apps the phone would have prior to purchasing it, however my major gripe is the lack of an outgoing SMS queue, which is a deficiency that I could not have anticipated.

What it comes down to is that the iPhone is an amazing platform. Based on OSX, it can DO more and it SHOULD do more.. it doesn't have to do ALL these things out of the box on June 29, 1007, but in the near future there's no reason for this thing to not reach full potential as JesusPhone.

 

[tasslehawf]

If that's not enough I really don't know what would be...

How about some frickin' games? Would it be too much to put a version of solitaire on there?

 

[shk718]

How about some frickin' games? Would it be too much to put a version of solitaire on there?

on the first iPods there was a hidden break out game - if i remember correctly Steve J wrote it - there must be a hidden version of it on the phone.

 

[dunamis]

offline web page reading

I'm a huge Avantgo fan. I've emailed them to ask if they're putting out an iphone version. They're on palm, PC and BB already, so can't see why they wouldn't. Put some pressure on 'em!