Anyone think the new iPad actually has true HDR?

[Kal-037]

Apple spoke about for a moment at WWDC, but anyone think they actually added true HDR like UHD TVs? I know it's not yet released, but I'm really curious.
I would be incredibly happy if they had true HDR 10 that worked with movies and TV shows, (Netflix originals, Google Movies and TV, and Vudu UHD movies.)
I know many people don't consider HDR a big deal, but being a film student and photographer I am curious if this iPad truly supports HDR. What about anyone else, do you think it's true HDR or just a firmware artificial HDR?

Kallum.

 

[Sparky2012]

I noticed this too when watching the Keynote. I don't know the answer but I'd assume if they showed HDR on screen that means it'll be the HDR10 format and should hopefully result in being able to watch Netflix and other movies/TV shows in HDR.

 

[macduke]

I thought it was mainly just the increased color gamut? I thought the 10-bit stuff was iMac only.

 

[seadragon]

Is 600 nits bright enough to be considered HDR? I thought over 1,000 is needed?

 

[Kal-037]

Is 600 nits bright enough to be considered HDR? I thought over 1,000 is needed?

No, I have a 2016 Sony 43" tv that is under 1000 nits but has HDR 10, (I don't know what brightness it has to be though.)


Kallum.

 

[Sparky2012]

Is 600 nits bright enough to be considered HDR? I thought over 1,000 is needed?

No, a 1000 nits is required to be considered UHD Premium (for TV's anyway) but they can still display HDR.

 

[Kal-037]

No, a 1000 nits is required to be considered UHD Premium (for TV's anyway) but they can still display HDR.

Except "UHD Premium" is a label only for a consortium of TV manufacturers, not all. (LG, Vizio and Samsung use it, but not Sony.) HDR UHD is the same as "UHD Premium." That label is only on there to show you it has HDR 10, 90% of P3 1-bit color gamut, and 4K UHD resolution.
When doing orientation for best buy and research for my TV I learned Sony doesn't like the "Premium" label that the other manufacturers use. Now again I don't know the exact specs (brightness wise) that a TV must be to be HDR 10, but my 43" is HDR10, 10-bit color, and is 4K UHD... confirmed by multiple sources including Sony themselves. Sorry not trying to be a know-it-all or anything, but more annoyed that Samsung, LG, and Co. try to make it seem like something is better just by using fancy words, when Sony and other manufacturers simply will say "hey our TV is true HDR 4K UHD." Ha ha


Kallum.

 

[Sparky2012]

Except "UHD Premium" is a label only for a consortium of TV manufacturers, not all. (LG, Vizio and Samsung use it, but not Sony.) HDR UHD is the same as "UHD Premium." That label is only on there to show you it has HDR 10, 90% of P3 10-bit color gamut, and 4K UHD resolution.
When doing orientation for best buy and research for my TV I learned Sony doesn't like the "Premium" label that the other manufacturers use. Now again I don't know the exact specs (brightness wise) that a TV must be to be HDR 10, but my 43" is HDR10, 10-bit color, and is 4K UHD... confirmed by multiple sources including Sony themselves. Sorry not trying to be a know-it-all or anything, but more annoyed that Samsung, LG, and Co. try to make it seem like something is better just by using fancy words, when Sony and other manufacturers simply will say "hey our TV is true HDR 4K UHD." Ha ha


Kallum.

Don't worry I don't see you as a "know-it-all". Actually you've taught me something. I didn't know that Sony don't use that label for their TV's. I do know that 1000 nits isnt the only spec that's required for the UHD Premium label though. I partly got my TV which is a 49" 4K UHD HDR10 Samsung due to the UHD Premium label and a good price, and while the TV is nice and all that, its nowhere near 'premium' in terms of build or even picture where there is plenty of banding due to the VA backlight which ruins things for me. So in that sense, Sony are under marketing their 4K UHD HDR TV's but yet they have been found to have great picture quality.

Hoping Apple have done a Sony here and undersold/undermarketed their HDR on the iPad Pro as the only mention of the spec was on the Keynote slide. Nothing on the tech specs page, or marketing pages.

 

[Krevnik]

Hoping Apple have done a Sony here and undersold/undermarketed their HDR on the iPad Pro as the only mention of the spec was on the Keynote slide. Nothing on the tech specs page, or marketing pages.

Well, they might have drummed it up a bit more if there was more to say. I was curious about this myself, so I did a bit of digging. It's interesting because the origin of the name "HDR10" comes from the specification of what HDR10 video is supposed to be. The interesting bits are quoted from here (emphasis mine):

Essentially, HDR10 is defined as the combination of the following container and coding characteristics:

• Color container/primaries: BT.2020
• Transfer function (OETF/EOTF): SMPTE ST 2084
• Representation: Non Constant Luminance (NCL) YCbCr
• Sampling: 4:2:0
• Bit Depth: 10 bits
• Metadata: SMPTE ST 2086, MaxFALL, MaxCLL, HEVC Supplemental enhancement information (SEI) Messages
• Encoding using: HEVC Main 10 profile (iii)

HDR10 is defined as using HEVC Main 10 Profile. So now things start to make more sense to me that Apple is interested in HDR now. With HEVC support that they have been talking about, they can bake HDR10 support into QuickTime itself if they want. So why not start laying the foundations for playback of HDR10 in an mp4/m4v container? So I wouldn't be surprised at all if with iOS 11, or a special build of iOS 10 with HEVC back-ported, that they can display HDR10 content to the screen.

But here's the bad news. I don't know where you're going to run into such content. Apple's only going to support HEVC for the codec, and there's no official standard that I'm aware of for embedding the metadata into an mp4 container. Is it part of the HEVC stream itself? Dunno. YouTube seems to say no. So it isn't like Apple is going to be joining an existing ecosystem.

What I'm betting on now is that HEVC will become more important to Apple later. This aligns even more with my thoughts that Apple is prepping for a new Apple TV + iTunes Movies in 4K within the next 12 months or so. HDR10 content will probably be part of that push, the more I think about it.

But I suspect that just like AC3 / Chapter / ID3 support in m4v files, 3rd parties won't know how to craft compatible files until after Apple makes their library available and people can start reverse engineering what Apple did.

 

[seadragon]

Great question and discussion guys. My knowledge of HDR is rather limited and I'm enjoying reading your comments.

 

[Sparky2012]

Well, they might have drummed it up a bit more if there was more to say. I was curious about this myself, so I did a bit of digging. It's interesting because the origin of the name "HDR10" comes from the specification of what HDR10 video is supposed to be. The interesting bits are quoted from here (emphasis mine):



HDR10 is defined as using HEVC Main 10 Profile. So now things start to make more sense to me that Apple is interested in HDR now. With HEVC support that they have been talking about, they can bake HDR10 support into QuickTime itself if they want. So why not start laying the foundations for playback of HDR10 in an mp4/m4v container? So I wouldn't be surprised at all if with iOS 11, or a special build of iOS 10 with HEVC back-ported, that they can display HDR10 content to the screen.

But here's the bad news. I don't know where you're going to run into such content. Apple's only going to support HEVC for the codec, and there's no official standard that I'm aware of for embedding the metadata into an mp4 container. Is it part of the HEVC stream itself? Dunno. YouTube seems to say no. So it isn't like Apple is going to be joining an existing ecosystem.

What I'm betting on now is that HEVC will become more important to Apple later. This aligns even more with my thoughts that Apple is prepping for a new Apple TV + iTunes Movies in 4K within the next 12 months or so. HDR10 content will probably be part of that push, the more I think about it.

But I suspect that just like AC3 / Chapter / ID3 support in m4v files, 3rd parties won't know how to craft compatible files until after Apple makes their library available and people can start reverse engineering what Apple did.

Cheers for the digging. This would also cover why Apple has hardly marketed HDR as its looking like it'll only be enabled once iOS 11 is installed. Around the time iOS 11 is released, they'll most likely unveil a new Apple TV which is 4K HDR compatible along with iTunes content to take advantage. They'll also likely unveil HDR support on the new iPhone as well as tout the iPad Pro can also play HDR content, and at this point allow the HEVC libraries to be used by developers.

Furthermore, do we know if the new iPad Pro displays are 10 bit? Nothing was said on this. We do know that there are TV's which have 8 bit panels but do support HDR although obviously its not as good.

 

[Kal-037]

Cheers for the digging. This would also cover why Apple has hardly marketed HDR as its looking like it'll only be enabled once iOS 11 is installed. Around the time iOS 11 is released, they'll most likely unveil a new Apple TV which is 4K HDR compatible along with iTunes content to take advantage. They'll also likely unveil HDR support on the new iPhone as well as tout the iPad Pro can also play HDR content, and at this point allow the HEVC libraries to be used by developers.

Furthermore, do we know if the new iPad Pro displays are 10 bit? Nothing was said on this. We do know that there are TV's which have 8 bit panels but do support HDR although obviously its not as good.

My understanding was that DCI-P3 is much wider color gamut than Rec. 709 (which is 8-bit that supports 16 million colors) while 10-bit colors support over 1 billion, but I am not 100% sure DCI-P3 is 10-bit. Apple didn't mention that color spec so I assume the iPad simply has wider P3 color, but maybe not full 10-bit.


Kallum.

 

[Sparky2012]

My understanding was that DCI-P3 is much wider color gamut than Rec. 709 (which is 8-bit that supports 16 million colors) while 10-bit colors support over 1 billion, but I am not 100% sure DCI-P3 is 10-bit. Apple didn't mention that color spec so I assume the iPad simply has wider P3 color, but maybe not full 10-bit.


Kallum.

Yep that is my understanding as well. Now, the new iMac has a DCI-P3 colour gamut, support for 1 billion colours and 10 bit dithering but no HDR support (unknown but nothing said). Compare that with what we are talking about here and we have DCI-P3 and HDR support but nothing said on the display bit colour. It would lead me to believe that either the iMac does have HDR support or the iPad Pro is doing fake HDR, or alternatively Apple has said near nout on HDR on iPad Pro because as previously discussed they are waiting for iOS 11 to include support (HEVC) along with the new Apple TV and iTunes 4K HDR content.

 

[Kal-037]

So IF the iPP had true HDR it would have support for over 1 billion colors, (as HDR is what allows a display to really portray the wider color.) But... right now, since the HDR seems to be a an iOS 11 software thing; I doubt we'll get the full wide color gamut similar to the iMac or UHD TVs, (even with the update HDR is most likely more on the artificial side.) :/


Kallum.

 

[Sparky2012]

So IF the iPP had true HDR it would have support for over 1 billion colors, (as HDR is what allows a display to really portray the wider color.) But... right now, since the HDR seems to be a an iOS 11 software thing; I doubt we'll get the full wide color gamut similar to the iMac or UHD TVs, (even with the update HDR is most likely more on the artificial side.) :/


Kallum.

Starting to seem so Could be wrong tho. If it is indeed more artificial, could still produce a better image than SDR for Movies and TV Shows as 8 bit colour panel TV's have shown.

 

[Kal-037]

Starting to seem so Could be wrong tho. If it is indeed more artificial, could still produce a better image than SDR for Movies and TV Shows as 8 bit colour panel TV's have shown.

OR we could simply be missing one important thing... maybe iOS 10 doesn't offer support for HDR at all, but iOS 11 will, and so the iPad COULD actually have true HDR but we are unable to truly use it due to iOS 10... just food for thought.


Kallum S.

 

[Sparky2012]

OR we could simply be missing one important thing... maybe iOS 10 doesn't offer support for HDR at all, but iOS 11 will, and so the iPad COULD actually have true HDR but we are unable to truly use it due to iOS 10... just food for thought.


Kallum S.

Its possible... damn iOS 10 Hopefully when the display is reviewed by Displaymate or Anandtech we'll get a definitive answer.

 

[moxxham]

Would it help if when my new 12.9 iPP arrives, I compared it to my 1st gen iPP with a colour banding test? If it’s a 10 bit panel, the banding should be significantly less on the new model?

Edit: I’m running iOS 11 on my current first gen iPP

 

[Sparky2012]

Would it help if when my new 12.9 iPP arrives, I compared it to my 1st gen iPP with a colour banding test? If it’s a 10 bit panel, the banding should be significantly less on the new model?

Edit: I’m running iOS 11 on my current first gen iPP

You could always try it. Not sure if it'd show any difference because you'd need a HDR or 10 bit image/source material I reckon to see differences, I'm not entirely sure. As I say, worth a go.

 

[TheRealAlex]

Apple spoke about for a moment at WWDC, but anyone think they actually added true HDR like UHD TVs? I know it's not yet released, but I'm really curious.
I would be incredibly happy if they had true HDR 10 that worked with movies and TV shows, (Netflix originals, Google Movies and TV, and Vudu UHD movies.)
I know many people don't consider HDR a big deal, but being a film student and photographer I am curious if this iPad truly supports HDR. What about anyone else, do you think it's true HDR or just a firmware artificial HDR?

Kallum.

These unanswered questions Is why Iam waiting for reviews and side by side comparisons before selling my 9.7" Pro my guess is.

#1. Only HDR content will function on it.
#2. It's not HDR10 compliant. Apple would have said so.

 

[ActionableMango]

Some of you guys are conflating several things together that are not necessarily true. High Dynamic Range in reference to a display screen just means that it has a larger range of light intensity than a typical display would. That's it.

HDR doesn't mean a minimum of a billion colors and HDR doesn't have anything to do with color banding. More colors (wide gamut) and more levels of light intensity (HDR) are two different things. Note these are separate bullet points:

Also, "HDR" doesn't automatically mean "HDR10". Sure, it might end up being that way. But it's sort of like saying "surround sound" is Dolby Digital 5.1. Yes, it might be, or it might be any other number of surround sound implementations. Maybe HDR will be HDR10, or HDR HLG, or Dolby Vision, or Technicolor HDR, or maybe even some Apple proprietary format that only works with iTunes videos. We won't know what Apple means until they say what it means or can test it in person. Like TheRealAlex says, I am skeptical that it means HDR10 or they should have just listed it as HDR10.

What is disappointing to me is that it specially says "HDR Video". This implies, I assume, that HDR is only supported for video and not for applications such as HDR gaming, which would have been fantastic.

 

[Kal-037]

Some of you guys are conflating several things together that are not necessarily true. High Dynamic Range in reference to a display screen just means that it has a larger range of light intensity than a typical display would. That's it.

HDR doesn't mean a minimum of a billion colors and HDR doesn't have anything to do with color banding. More colors (wide gamut) and more levels of light intensity (HDR) are two different things. Note these are separate bullet points:

Also, "HDR" doesn't automatically mean "HDR10". Sure, it might end up being that way. But it's sort of like saying "surround sound" is Dolby Digital 5.1. Yes, it might be, or it might be any other number of surround sound implementations. Maybe HDR will be HDR10, or HDR HLG, or Dolby Vision, or Technicolor HDR, or maybe even some Apple proprietary format that only works with iTunes videos. We won't know what Apple means until they say what it means or can test it in person. Like TheRealAlex says, I am skeptical that it means HDR10 or they should have just listed it as HDR10.

What is disappointing to me is that it specially says "HDR Video". This implies, I assume, that HDR is only supported for video and not for applications such as HDR gaming, which would have been fantastic.

I agree good sir, but HDR or high dynamic range is also about color accuracy too, due to the greater enhancements of contrast for better blacks and whiter brightness levels.
The best colors will come from HDR compatible displays because the brightness, darkness levels, and overal contrast will allow the colors to be more accurate to their source and just plain more vibrant and true to life.

I hope Apple means a proper HDR not just artificial like in the PS4 Slim or Xbox OneS and some 4K TVs that only have a firmware update that artificially boosts the contrast and color vibrancy ever so much, just to make it seem like HDR... but it actually isn't. *Apple don't fail me now.



***I'm reading way into this but video does mean: "moving image," so it is possible it could work with HDR games as well, they are moving images too... again just food for thought.
Also at-least Apple didn't say "HDR Film Content" then we'd be out of luck for sure.

Kallum. S.W.
[doublepost=1496998321][/doublepost]

Would it help if when my new 12.9 iPP arrives, I compared it to my 1st gen iPP with a colour banding test? If it’s a 10 bit panel, the banding should be significantly less on the new model?

Edit: I’m running iOS 11 on my current first gen iPP

That would be great, as someone mentioned it may not be a perfect test unless you have an app that can actually test the HDR and color gamut to check for gradient errors. Perhaps check with RTings.com on how they would go about doing it. (But don't stress about it really, I'm sure even if it isn't TRUE HDR,) it will still look amazing. I honestly wanted 4 things from Apple with this update and they delivered on 2 of the 4...

1. DCI-P3 Cinema Display
2. A10X Fusion Processor
3. Haptic Home Button
4. More RAM

I didn't get the RAM or Haptic Home button, but they weren't deal breakers, just a silly wishlist... honestly, having a 600nit, 120hz refresh rate, and HDR video display was a huge surprise to me, along with the incredibly powerful beast of a processor that I originally thought would just be a points faster than the iPhone 7... but looks to be hugely more powerful and capable.
I am super happy and excited for this iPad. I loved the first gen iPP and hope this wows me just as much... also I'm hoping it is better than the lame 9.7" lol.

 

[Sparky2012]

Was looking for some more information on this and while I didn't find anything really, I did find that iMore will be looking into this which is great news.

 

[Krevnik]

Also, "HDR" doesn't automatically mean "HDR10". Sure, it might end up being that way. But it's sort of like saying "surround sound" is Dolby Digital 5.1. Yes, it might be, or it might be any other number of surround sound implementations. Maybe HDR will be HDR10, or HDR HLG, or Dolby Vision, or Technicolor HDR, or maybe even some Apple proprietary format that only works with iTunes videos. We won't know what Apple means until they say what it means or can test it in person. Like TheRealAlex says, I am skeptical that it means HDR10 or they should have just listed it as HDR10.

One problem with this argument. HDR10 is not a display tech. So why talk about iOS's support for a specific video tech during hardware? The hardware itself isn't tied to it. It just needs to be HDR-capable and the OS handles the processing of the video with the metadata.

You are right that marking the display as HDR doesn't say anything about the standard Apple would use. It's just my own guess is that any HDR video support in CoreVideo will be based on HDR10 because it lines up well with the HEVC push. And it lines up with authoring already happening, keeping content creators a bit happier.

 

[DNichter]

Apple is building in support for the upcoming launch of a new Apple TV that supports 4K/HDR videos. Hoping this means they will have a streaming service as well.