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I don't want to be free of Microsoft products, just as I don't want to be free of Apple products. I don't understand the general hatred toward Microsoft. I tend to look at companies' products individually, because all companies have their strong and weak points. For example:

Microsoft:
- Windows: Good for many things, but NOT secure on it's own.
- Office: Great for everything it was made for. I happen to prefer Keynote over PP, but both products get the job done well, IMO.
- XBox: Fantastic gaming system.

Apple:
- Mac OS: Highly intuitive, very secure overall, looks gorgeous.
- Mac's in general: Quality hardware and design, expensive (but not necessarily overpriced).
- New notebook lines: Many reported issues, not something I would buy at this time.

Both companies make good products, both companies make bad products. I try to pick the best from any company and stick with it. Apple is definitely the best of most worlds, though.
 
This is all a matter of perspective.

At work, I only use windows, I use excel for more time than I'd like to admit. My excel skills are top notch, why learn something new.

Even if I didn't use it at work, I would still retain the programs for communicating with the general population. But thats just my perspective, some people are proud of abstinence, I would not be.
 
someguy said:
I don't understand the general hatred toward Microsoft.

It's a very long story. It's called The History of Personal Computers. You should read it sometime. I find it rather silly to say something like "I dont understand it" when the reasons are plentiful and easily found.
 
dpaanlka said:
It's a very long story. It's called The History of Personal Computers. You should read it sometime.
I appreciate the sarcasm. :rolleyes:

Perhaps what I should have said is that I don't understand the general hatred toward Microsoft's products. Obviously the company is not perfect and neither is it's history, but that doesn't mean that all of it's products are bad.
 
someguy said:
I don't understand the general hatred toward Microsoft.
I have a pretty good reason... one of my clients (a graphic design firm) was threaten by Microsoft's lawyers in the summer of 2002 with being sued for $10,000 per illegal copy of Microsoft software.

This was a company that used only Macs, and whose primary software was from Adobe and Quark. And yet I had to give a complete audit of all the Microsoft software on every system and prove that they had a license for it.

They had two copies of Office (98 and 2001), otherwise the only Microsoft software on these systems was Outlook Express and Internet Explorer (and most people there were using Netscape Communicator for both browsing and e-mail).

When a giant like Microsoft comes down on a small company that barely uses any of their products like a ton of bricks... you can quickly gain a deep dislike for them.

:rolleyes:

And of course if that isn't enough, they are a convicted monopolist... The Findings of Fact in the DoJ's case against Microsoft paint a clear picture of the type of company that they are.
 
RacerX said:
I have a pretty good reason... <snip>
I'm sorry to hear that. I am definitely not going to stick up for Microsoft (or any other company). Hopefully my last post made it clear what I was trying to say.
 
someguy said:
I appreciate the sarcasm. :rolleyes:

Perhaps what I should have said is that I don't understand the general hatred toward Microsoft's products. Obviously the company is not perfect and neither is it's history, but that doesn't mean that all of it's products are bad.

Didn't say anything was wrong with Office. Office:Mac is actually pretty good. But, after the long long history of Microsoft screwing Apple, it doesn't matter to me, especially since I wouldn't say Office is better than iWork, just has more useless features that I don't want or need. Trying to do page layouts in Pages vs Word, well then Word really falls short. PowerPoint, on the other hand, well that is just a joke compared to Keynote. Excel is excellent I'm sure, but the simple charts and graphs I do are just fine for (and look better in) Pages. I don't use Entourage.

Anyways, there are lots of reasons old-timers are really going to despise Microsoft. Just because Microsoft is good now doesn't erase years of horrendous actions in many Mac minds.

Sex with a dirty hooker isn't always bad, but do you really want to do it?
 
I wish I was Microsoft free. :(

The only app by MS that I have/use is Office, which has to be the single, most annoying, frustrating, and worst software ever written for OS X or Windows.

For example, I was trying to insert an image into a document, and had it set to be behind the text. Despite this, I would drop the image in one place, but it would jump several inches over. Then, I would move the image (to where I originally placed it), which would then move the text and ruin the format of my document. (Keep in mind, none of this should have happened because I chose the layout "behind text"). :mad:

Also, Word has absolutely no respect for margins. I will tell it one inch for every side, but it continues to send the last line on the page to the next at 1.5 inches. :mad:

If anyone wants to know why I despise Microsoft products, I will gladly give them more reasons.
 
dpaanlka said:
Didn't say anything was wrong with Office. Office:Mac is actually pretty good. But, after the long long history of Microsoft screwing Apple, it doesn't matter to me, especially since I wouldn't say Office is better than iWork, just has more useless features that I don't want or need. Trying to do page layouts in Pages vs Word, well then Word really falls short. PowerPoint, on the other hand, well that is just a joke compared to Keynote. Excel is excellent I'm sure, but the simple charts and graphs I do are just fine for (and look better in) Pages. I don't use Entourage.
Well, you've effectively established that no Microsoft product is for you. That's fine, but has nothing to do with my point, which is basically that all other things aside, Microsoft has a few products that work just fine and in some cases, even just as good as Apple's competition.

dpaanlka said:
Anyways, there are lots of reasons old-timers are really going to despise Microsoft. Just because Microsoft is good now doesn't erase years of horrendous actions in many Mac minds.
Everyone is free to do as they please, but I'm not going to let a companies actions (past or present) stop me from utilizing whatever tools I need to in order to get my work done. Again, my point is that I choose to use certain Microsoft products to get some of my work done because I like them more. I know this is a Mac forum, but I'm sure it's not too difficult for some of you to grasp the concept of liking a Microsoft product more than an Apple.

EDIT: Also, I want to add that I am well aware of the fact that the majority of MS products are truly horrible. I just realize, too, that some aren't so bad, and actually choose to use some of them.
 
someguy said:
I'm sure it's not too difficult for some of you to grasp the concept of liking a Microsoft product more than an Apple.

But nobody here questioned that! (??)

You're the one who said you couldn't understand why so many Mac users choose to hate Microsoft. So, I was simply explaining to you.

I never said I didn't understand why you would use MS products.
 
dpaanlka said:
But nobody here questioned that! (??)

You're the one who said you couldn't understand why so many Mac users choose to hate Microsoft. So, I was simply explaining to you.

I never said I didn't understand why you would use MS products.
I apologize. I must have mistook something you said for something else. I got the general idea (from this thread as a whole, not just you) that Microsoft and everything is produces is nothing anyone wants anything to do with. While I understand that in most cases, MS products are below par, that is not always the case. Sometimes, I feel like Mac users tend to forget that, but perhaps I don't give them enough credit. :)
 
RacerX said:
I have a pretty good reason... one of my clients (a graphic design firm) was threaten by Microsoft's lawyers in the summer of 2002 with being sued for $10,000 per illegal copy of Microsoft software.

This is Microsoft company policy in action. They've pulled the same strong-arm tactic on businesses all around the world, and on schools as well. Most people with only a casual customer relationship to the company probably don't know about their history of behaving like common thugs. I have also personally been harassed by Microsoft for an entirely different reason. Sadly this is part of the company's culture, and IMO, a good reason to avoid their products whenever possible, beyond whether you think they are good and useful or not.
 
Personal:

I have Office installed on my desktop, that I'm going to switch over to Open Office at some point.

Laptop is Micro$oft free, using the Open Office suite.

Work:

Don't even ask. Really, don't even ask. I still cry at night about phasing out *NIX servers for ShitServer 2003 and then getting a phone call about them being compromised.
 
iGary said:
I have to use Excel - come on Numbers.

Agreed.... cant even compare the two apps... excel is lightyears ahead....

while i do like Keyote over powerpoint i usually stick with powerpoint because i have to present on a dell at work and the conversion (export to PP) is usually terrible.... fonts dont transfer correctly most of the time, and margins ALWAYS get f'd up in the transition...
 
RacerX said:
And of course if that isn't enough, they are a convicted monopolist... The Findings of Fact in the DoJ's case against Microsoft paint a clear picture of the type of company that they are.

Does anyone remember how they got out of this?

With the DOJ attempting to break up Microsoft for antitrust violations, Redmond quickly made it a top priority to keep competitors ostensibly healthy. This meant helping Apple remain afloat with a $150 million investment in 1998. Microsoft also poured money into making sure that Macintoshes running Microsoft Office could easily interoperate with Windows machines. And it poured still more money into making sure that Internet Explorer for the Macintosh was in no way inferior to the Windows version. (even though they have discontinued explorer for macs) Without Microsoft's assistance, I think Apple would have been shuttered back then. :eek:
 
I was for a while but these open source things just dont cut it with spreadsheets. Sorry BUT THEY DONT:mad:

M$ operating systems and bundled software = :(
M$ Application programs = ;)

Keynote is really good if you design a presentation from scratch on it not so good importing somebody elses Powerpoint and try to edit it.

My two Cents
 
All Microsoft related stuff:
Halo CE and Halo 2 for Xbox.
Call of Duty 2 for Xbox 360 (not really MS realred).
Halo CE for PC/Mac.
MS Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Entourage and MS AutoUpdate.
Xbox 360 (Premium, not Core System) with 2 wireless + 1 wired controller, wireless networking adapter, Xbox 360 headset, Play 'n charge kit.

So no, I'm definiately not MS free. I don't use entourage and Halo for Mac, so I might just get rid of these, but IMO the Office Suite and Xbox 360 are things Apple just don't deliever as good. AppleWorks and iWork are IMO not as good and easy as Office. Though Apple don't make a console, I would still buy Xbox, because of Halo monopole.:D
 
dpaanlka said:
...especially since I wouldn't say Office is better than iWork, just has more useless features that I don't want or need. Trying to do page layouts in Pages vs Word, well then Word really falls short. PowerPoint, on the other hand, well that is just a joke compared to Keynote. Excel is excellent I'm sure, but the simple charts and graphs I do are just fine for (and look better in) Pages.

Firstly, just because you don't need the features and are happy with the very (very) basic features that iWork offers, doesn't mean everyone is. To me, Pages falls short of Word because it's slow for a program with a huge list of things it CAN'T do compared to Word. Keynote is a joke to me, or at least Keynote 1 was. I played around with Keynote 2 and it was more difficult to do things I wanted to do when compared to PowerPoint (and this isn't because I'm used to using PowerPoint, either). Excel rules all. OpenOffice, NeoOffice, etc, aren't comparable to Word and Excel.

It's just perspective. If your needs are so basic, then just use TextEdit or download a small snappy word processor with only basic features. Pages isn't good for writing documents, and Keynote is only good if you want to put in text. I have things to do serious things with Word, Excel, and PowerPoint.
 
Electro Funk said:
Does anyone remember how they got out of this?

With the DOJ attempting to break up Microsoft for antitrust violations, Redmond quickly made it a top priority to keep competitors ostensibly healthy. This meant helping Apple remain afloat with a $150 million investment in 1998. Microsoft also poured money into making sure that Macintoshes running Microsoft Office could easily interoperate with Windows machines. And it poured still more money into making sure that Internet Explorer for the Macintosh was in no way inferior to the Windows version. (even though they have discontinued explorer for macs) Without Microsoft's assistance, I think Apple would have been shuttered back then. :eek:

This is completely inaccurate.

U.S. v Microsoft wasn't even settled until 2002, and Microsoft still operates under a consent decree. The case was very active prior to 2001 but was weakened substantially by the Bush DOJ, just as many expected, and settled in a very controversial manner, still having not one thing to do with Apple.

The $150 million 1997 "investment" in Apple also had not one thing to do with the antitrust case against Microsoft. It was part of a settlement of patent disputes between the companies. People are always getting this stuff mixed up. I often wonder where they are getting so much bad information.
 
Electro Funk said:
Does anyone remember how they got out of this?
Yes... basically it comes down to George W. Bush being elected President of the United States.

Sadly, the story of Microsoft's antitrust case is one of not learning from the past.

Microsoft was originally brought up on antitrust charges due to forcing OEMs to preinstall a copy of Microsoft's operating system on every computer they made or face retaliation. The judge (Stanley Sporkin) in that case found Microsoft guilty and rejected a DoJ settlement as not being hard enough on Microsoft.

The case was sent back down after federal appeals court agreed with Microsoft/DoJ and a new judge was given the case (Thomas Penfield Jackson). Not knowing Microsoft he agreed to a settlement rather than retrying the case on it's merits.

After a few years of watching Microsoft disregard the settlement and getting new reports of antitrust violation, Jackson agrees to hear new charges from the DoJ about Microsoft (culminating in the Findings of Fact). Jackson, who has now seen Microsoft in action for a number of years, decides that the company needs to be broken up.

The case was sent back down to have the punishment phase retried and a new judge was given the case (Colleen Kollar-Kotelly). With Bush being elected, the DoJ no longer see any issues with Microsoft's actions and suggests a settlement (Microsoft was both a major contributor to the Bush campaign and to many of John Ashcroft's races). Not knowing Microsoft she agrees to a settlement hearing rather than retrying the punishment phase of the case.

Kollar-Kotelly is only now learning what Jackson and Sporkin had found out before her... that for Microsoft it will always be less expensive to fight out these cases in court, settle, violate those settlements and go back to court than it would be to change their practices.



What we end up seeing in this case is that the federal appeals court doesn't want this case, that the judges are replaced when they get to know Microsoft for who they really are and that the resolve of the Department of Justice changes with the political climate in Washington.

With the DOJ attempting to break up Microsoft for antitrust violations, Redmond quickly made it a top priority to keep competitors ostensibly healthy. This meant helping Apple remain afloat with a $150 million investment in 1998. Microsoft also poured money into making sure that Macintoshes running Microsoft Office could easily interoperate with Windows machines. And it poured still more money into making sure that Internet Explorer for the Macintosh was in no way inferior to the Windows version. (even though they have discontinued explorer for macs) Without Microsoft's assistance, I think Apple would have been shuttered back then.
The reason for that money (1997) was to settle a patent case Apple had brought against Microsoft.

Microsoft needed that case to go away (quickly) as the DoJ's case started becoming much stronger and Jackson started showing signs that he was getting feed up with Microsoft's actions.

Still, this didn't stop Microsoft from continuing to use anticompetitive tactics against Apple.

I put up a page on my site about the applications barrier to entry and it's effect on Rhapsody, but the full testimony of Avie Tevanian in the Microsoft v. DoJ case paints a pretty clear picture of Microsoft's dealing with Apple.

Edit: This is basically an expanded version of IJ Reilly's post before mine.
 
Abstract said:
Firstly, just because you don't need the features and are happy with the very (very) basic features that iWork offers, doesn't mean everyone is. To me, Pages falls short of Word because it's slow for a program with a huge list of things it CAN'T do compared to Word. Keynote is a joke to me, or at least Keynote 1 was. I played around with Keynote 2 and it was more difficult to do things I wanted to do when compared to PowerPoint (and this isn't because I'm used to using PowerPoint, either). Excel rules all. OpenOffice, NeoOffice, etc, aren't comparable to Word and Excel.

I do Page Layouts more than word processing, in which case Pages really does trample all over Word. But, that's simply because Word is not meant to be page-layout software. I'm sure typing 300 page word processing documents would be aweful in Pages. But I don't do that ever.

I was under the impression that the general consensus was Keynote is way better than PowerPoint though. I mean seriously, it seems like PowerPoint graphics haven't been updated since 1998. You said you were just "playing around with it" - obviously you won't like it because you won't know how to use it. However once you know how to use it, it really does create more exciting presentations, easier, than PowerPoint ever could, and what features does PowerPoint have over keynote honestly.
 
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