APFS Bug in macOS High Sierra Can Cause Data Loss When Writing to Disk Images

[Heineken]

Get with it man.

If Apple gave us a choice to convert to APFS during the upgrade, this bug wouldn't be so bad. However, a forced conversion to APFS when it's not really ready for prime time simply stinks.

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”

 

[maflynn]

Get with it man.

If Apple gave us a choice to convert to APFS during the upgrade, this bug wouldn't be so bad. However, a forced conversion to APFS when it's not really ready for prime time simply stinks.

Other develppers have had their fs in beta longer so they could shake out the bugs. I agree if you're going to be a non-voluntary choice, then you better make sure data integrity is at 100%. Just saying its a bug does a disservice to consumers and apple who rushed this out.

 

[Heineken]

It's a severe data loss bug. It doesn't affect most users, but it's quite serious nonetheless.

It's a bug and those will happen regardless of your wishes.

 

[chucker23n1]

Get with it man.

If Apple gave us a choice to convert to APFS during the upgrade, this bug wouldn't be so bad. However, a forced conversion to APFS when it's not really ready for prime time simply stinks.

This bug is completely unrelated to the forced conversion of your boot volume. Nobody is affected by this bug because of that automatic conversion.
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It's a bug and those will happen regardless of your wishes.

Thanks for your input.

 

[belvdr]

You need a reality check.

I didn't deploy btrfs on my Linux boxes because I didn't feel like taking a chance with a filesystem that was brand new. Apple forced this on those who upgraded. How is this not reality?

To be honest, I feel like you're trolling a bit here because my opinion doesn't align with yours.

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”

Say what?

 

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

Apple should read this thread for APFS bugs. Apparently APFS is the cause of every bug encountered on macOS, according to MR users..

 

[markcres]

Making fun of surnames. Feels like primary school already.

Anagram of Merode is ' O, Merde'

 

[JessePinkman]

They've been using Hynix for as long as I can remember all through Jobs and Cook.

hynix has memory leak problems and its not a very good memory when you buy a mac with 2000$ you expect better memories like micron or samsung
thats being said some rare macbook pros have micron memory...

 

[chucker23n1]

Apple should read this thread for APFS bugs. Apparently APFS is the cause of every bug encountered on macOS, according to MR users..

My guess is that APFS is, indirectly, indeed to blame for this bug. In particular, APFS introduces the concept of containers with volumes inside, which share a common capacity. (I.e., you can have a 1 TB container with three 500 GB volumes inside, and APFS handles that just fine until you actually try to use more than 1 TB of space in total across those three volumes.)

This new special case probably causes APFS to think that there's room left in the container, whereas diskimages-helper, in turn, thinks that the APFS container would have notified it of the real available space. They're both assuming that each other is responsible.

 

[Heineken]

I didn't deploy btrfs on my Linux boxes because I didn't feel like taking a chance with a filesystem that was brand new. Apple forced this on those who upgraded. How is this not reality?

To be honest, I feel like you're trolling a bit here because my opinion doesn't align with yours.Say what?

Oh now it's trolling?

Listen, bugs happen, the problem is not bugs, the problem is people get triggered just because Apple made a boo boo (like root bug) few times. Now anything that gets posted triggers people. Apple developed this FS in basically no time and deployed silently on millions of devices without as far as i know 0 hiccups. That is unheard of.

The more you work on something the more tunnel mission you get and that's why there are bounty programs and public betas and as far as FS goes you need just to feed DATA as much as possible to test it, so it is not uncommon for bugs to be found and fixed out in the wild.

troll out.

 

[chucker23n1]

Oh now it's trolling?

Listen, bugs happen, the problem is not bugs, the problem is people get triggered just because Apple made a boo boo (like root bug) few times.

No, Apple screwed up. On top of that, they haven't fixed the problem in half a year.

Apple developed this FS in basically no time

They probably developed it over the course of several years.

and deployed silently on millions of devices without as far as i know 0 hiccups.

I fail to see how this feat absolves them of responsibility for fixing a massive dataloss bug.

The more you work on something the more tunnel mission you get and that's why there are bounty programs

There is no Apple bounty program for non-security bugs.

and public betas and as far as FS goes you need just to feed DATA as much as possible to test it, so it is not uncommon for bugs to be found and fixed out in the wild.

And therefore, people can't criticize when such a bug does happen?

 

[NSNotFound]

I've found that High Sierra is at times completely unstable and unreliable, at least for me. Graphic glitches and slow UI (especially when scrolling and/or swiping between screens), random CPU peaks and speeded up fans, overall system lagging on standard tasks. The list goes on.

 

[Merode]

hynix has memory leak problems and its not a very good memory when you buy a mac with 2000$ you expect better memories like micron or samsung
thats being said some rare macbook pros have micron memory...

You realize that memory leaks are all software related? Hardware makes no difference. Please stop spreading FUD.

SK Hynix memory is actually very similar to Micron. Samsung has slightly different desing and that's why their memory works better or worse in certain configurations (for example, Ryzen processors love Samsung RAM).

 

[Ries]

Had a malfunctioning power brik that caused my Macbook Pro 2011 to shut off when it disconnected. It managed to corrupt my APFS main disk twice so it was unrecoverable. I booted on a recovery stick and the Apple command line fsck_apfs tool even gave up on it.

 

[JessePinkman]

You realize that memory leaks are all software related? Hardware makes no difference. Please stop spreading FUD.

SK Hynix memory is actually very similar to Micron. Samsung has slightly different desing and that's why their memory works better or worse in certain configurations (for example, Ryzen processors love Samsung RAM).

dude sorry but its wrong memory leak might be software related but if you use cheap memories it might cause slowing down if you have good memories you wouldnt notice performance loss but on the cheap memory it might cause system freezing or other issues some newer memory modules have features to prevent performance loss -expensive server grade memories have stability features like ECC- i was experiencing memory leaks with hynix and macbook was freezing... with micron memories there is quite less leaks either that or they dont cause performance loss & freezings like on the hynix...

 

[Gorms]

This thread is chock full of the trolling, more so than usual. This is the first APFS bug that I can remember reading about, as others have mentioned there are a few but are edge cases. The smoothness of Apple's roll out APFS across Mac and iOS, when you consider the sheer scale and complexity of what they were doing and all the things that COULD have gone wrong, is insane. This is a bug, bugs happen in software at every level, it will probably be fixed soon. Grow up.

 

[H2SO4]

NEEEEED the option to install on HFS.
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This thread is chock full of the trolling, more so than usual. This is the first APFS bug that I can remember reading about, as others have mentioned there are a few but are edge cases. The smoothness of Apple's roll out APFS across Mac and iOS, when you consider the sheer scale and complexity of what they were doing and all the things that COULD have gone wrong, is insane. This is a bug, bugs happen in software at every level, it will probably be fixed soon. Grow up.

Not the first HS bug. There are/were some pretty big ones. Like cockroaches.

 

[Blake2477]

Ever since Craig took over everything has gone down the drain....

 

[Merode]

dude sorry but its wrong memory leak might be software related but if you use cheap memories it might cause slowing down if you have good memories you wouldnt notice performance loss but on the cheap memory if might cause system lock down or other issues some newer memory modules have features to prevent performance loss -expensive server grade memories have stability features like ECC- i was experiencing memory leaks with hynix and macbook was freezing with micron memories there is quite less leaks or im not noticing them anymore...

Yes, memory has different parameters and characteristics. Some are faster and some are slower. The difference between fastest and slowest is undiscernable for regular user (web browsing etc). You might notice difference in games because RAM is used as VRAM and is rather slow for that use case. Still, you would notice something like 5-10% lower FPS at worst. Nothing like you have described.

Still, every manufacturer produces both fast and slow memory. From what I know, Apple was always using memory from middle shelf - not top notch but not the worst.

The symptoms you described were rather related to some other hardware issue or more probably software (like corrupted OS installation or some malware).

ECC stands for error correction code and handles bitrot. In regular home use it's nothing you have to worry about and no consumer product uses them.

 

[bartvk]

And therefore, people can't criticize when such a bug does happen?

They can, but it doesn't help anyone when posters overreact. The bug is very much an edge case, and the writer of the blog states so: "Note: What I describe below applies to APFS sparse disk images only (...) If you make backups to network volumes, read on to learn more."

So, if you write backup software, and you have chosen to use APFS sparse disk images for that, and you write them to a network volume, then you will hit this bug.

I would be extremely surprised if anybody in this topic would've hit this bug.

 

[Merode]

I would be extremely surprised if anybody in this topic would've hit this bug.

I'm using them, but with HFS+. Didn't trust APFS considering Apple's track record and I was right. APFS needs at least two more years before considering safe.

I agree not many people will hit this error. I just wonder if they even tried unit testing.

 

[Marx55]

Apple should STOP releasing a new macOS (and iOS) version each year and concentrate on reliability and performance. Also bringing back good features of previous versions like colored labels (not just tiny dots!), colored items on left Finder pane, arrows in scroll bars, resume iTunes playback (available in SoundJam MP from which iTunes was developed in 2001; 17 years ago!), etc. Functionality first.

 

[dannys1]

Other develppers have had their fs in beta longer so they could shake out the bugs. I agree if you're going to be a non-voluntary choice, then you better make sure data integrity is at 100%. Just saying its a bug does a disservice to consumers and apple who rushed this out.

I'm not sure they rushed it out, it was in beta all the way through Sierra, then pushed to every iOS device 7-8 months before it came out in High Sierra.

A new file system every computer and mobile device uses is probably one of the most difficult things you can start from scratch - on par with just writing an entire new kernal for the OS. I don't see even if it was in beta for 10 years how they'd have come across every edge use case possible - as I said i've found two that no one else has come across yet, but as I also don't see how Apple would have come across them either, especially when however million now using APFS haven't found what I found - and it's taken months and months for Mike to find this bug.

Bug's are not great, but some have such a specific set of scenarios that need to come together you're never going to find them until a user reports it.
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Apple should STOP releasing a new macOS (and iOS) version each year and concentrate on reliability and performance. Also bringing back good features of previous versions like colored labels (not just tiny dots!), colored items on left Finder pane, arrows in scroll bars, resume iTunes playback (available in SoundJam MP from which iTunes was developed in 2001; 17 years ago!), etc. Functionality first.

It's got nothing to do with macOS or iOS versions.

 

[TiggrToo]

dude sorry but its wrong memory leak might be software related but if you use cheap memories it might cause slowing down if you have good memories you wouldnt notice performance loss but on the cheap memory it might cause system freezing or other issues some newer memory modules have features to prevent performance loss -expensive server grade memories have stability features like ECC- i was experiencing memory leaks with hynix and macbook was freezing... with micron memories there is quite less leaks either that or they dont cause performance loss & freezings like on the hynix...

In computer science, a memory leak is a type of resource leak that occurs when a computer program incorrectly manages memory allocations in such a way that memory which is no longer needed is not released.

Wikipedia definition of 'Memory Leak'.​

What the heck are you taking on about? 'Good memories'? What the heck is a 'Good Memories'?

Time to ignore you...

 

[Radeon85]

And this why I will always prefer Windows, "it just works"

 

[maflynn]

I'm not sure they rushed it out, it was in beta all the way through Sierra, then pushed to every iOS device 7-8 months before it came out in High Sierra.

I agree, from what i've read, filesystems need a long gestation period to ensure that when they do roll it out, data integrity is not impacted.

Yes, bugs happen, but that's why you take the time with filesystems to ensure that any major issues with writing data is not going to cause problems.

filesystem bugs are probably one of the worst types of bugs, I mean we're talking about people's data, whether its cherished images of your family or your doctorial thesis. The problem is that backups may not save you, because if the data has missing blocks and you don't know that, then the backup software will just backup what's there and so it backs up corrupted data.