Apple Accuses Epic Games of 'Willful, Brazen, and Unlawful Conduct' in Countersuit Asking for Breach of Contract Damages

[deevey]

Which is great until Apple abandon perfectly functional hardware that now doesn't get any updates. Now I don't want to oblige Apple to keep supporting their products however I would like the ability to install my own operating system on it once Apple have moved on. I have plenty of perfectly functional hardware wise devices that are increasingly at risk to unpatched security vulnerabilities, not getting updates for stuff like certificates or even simple browser enhancements.

The same issue exists in virtually every industry on the planet, not just tech either, and Apple certainly not the worst offender. To be honest, I think the 5-7 year update lifecycle they give their products is pretty darn respectable.

Nothing stopping you installing your own OS if you can manage it, but so far I've only seen some early demos of linux in text mode working on an Apple device.

No way do I think Apple should be responsible in any way for you to install something one of their vintage or obsolete devices wasn't designed to.

 

[Quu]

How do you know it's going to be a worst user experience? We won't know until we actually see it. Is having less grocery stores better or worst in your life? What about retail stores? I don't know about you but I'm glad I can go to either best buy, target or Walmart for goods.

Have you even tried EPIC's own store? It's really an awful user experience lacking many features of competing stores. It's clearly only a money grab from them. Apple has worked hard on their store there's really only one place to go from their example and that's down.

 

[Quu]

It's still not an obligation. You can choose to use a different app for that purpose that is available from Apple's store, or you can choose to not use the app, and tell the app author why you're not using it.

In my opinion it will feel like an obligation when important software you care about is only available on one store. This is already happening on PC with the EPIC games store paying game developers large sums of money for exclusivity on their store in their battle against Valves Steam Store and it sucks, royally.

If having to spend a few extra minutes once in a while to get users added to a particular store is the most annoying aspect, it sounds like it is working pretty well.

I wish it was only a few minutes. This is the scenario I went through recently to play Sea of Thieves (a Microsoft title) with a friend. We both bought it via Steam since it's sold on there and it's our preferred store of choice.

To play together though we had to both create XBOX Accounts and then you're able to send invites to each other. (Gives up privacy). But you can only send invites through this system at the point you begin to play. If someone gets disconnected mid-game you have to open the XBOX Dashboard App and re-send the invite through that app.

But there's a problem, that app only allows you to send invites for games it knows you own and that app itself is a game store and does not recognise games bought through Steam, only through itself. This means you have to either buy the game again (as does your friend) to launch it through the XBOX Menu or restart the game losing your progress to play together again.

This is just one example where having multiple stores that aren't aware of each other or where things are purchased results in a frustrating as heck user experience. Expect it to be even worse on iOS what with it being even more locked down than a general use PC.

 

[123]

Actually, it does. All the software from the firmware up, are just licensed to you. You may not use any of it without permission from Apple, and then you may only use it on their terms. You may not like this model. That is totally reasonable. You have a large selection of other mobile devices from which you may choose.

This is not enforceable, for one. Second, I'm not talking about Apple software.

 

[pasamio]

It is unlikely that Apple will ever allow you to install you own OS on a iPhone. If that is a requirement for you, it is best to look for other options.

On the other hand I think Apple is quite good at supporting older HW with updates.

I agree it is unlikely Apple would do it which is why I feel legislative change is required for companies that lock their hardware to unlock it once they stop supporting the software that runs the device. Apple do a reasonable job of providing updates compared to the Android market (which really isn't a high goal post) but I've been in the ecosystem long enough to have multiple fully functional pieces of hardware with ageing OS deploys on them that aren't getting software updates or security updates any more that are more valuable than the token $5 gift card (if that) I'd get from Apple to recycle them.

 

[Brandon916]

Have you even tried EPIC's own store? It's really an awful user experience lacking many features of competing stores. It's clearly only a money grab from them. Apple has worked hard on their store there's really only one place to go from their example and that's down.

Every store is a money cash grab. I still think it would benefit the consumers if there were more stores and allow us to find the best deals on apps. I'll be down for a store that offers old version of apps vs the latest ones. You can still only go to Apple app store while other consumers can go to either one.

 

[TiggrToo]

I've already given you an example which you conveniently ignored

Given I’ve given you two whole days now to respond I can only assume that you were totally wrong, and that you never did give me any examples, despite your claim otherwise.

It’s pretty weak to accuse someone of “conveniently ignoring” a post when that is exact what you have done here.

I was rather hoping you’d be honest and either admit to your mistake (it happens) or provide me with the information I politely asked for.

Oh well... At least one of us (me) tried...

 

[Alan Wynn]

Every store is a money cash grab. I still think it would benefit the consumers if there were more stores and allow us to find the best deals on apps.

It is not about the best deals, it is about convenience, security and privacy. I understand the rules for Apple's App Store. Do you know them for Epic's as an example? What about Steam's rules? Do they require Privacy labels?

I'll be down for a store that offers old version of apps vs the latest ones. You can still only go to Apple app store while other consumers can go to either one.

This is exactly the problem. Once there is more than one, I cannot only go to one, I (and everyone of the millions of others who share my views) will be forced to have accounts at all of them, as some apps will only be on one and some will be on another. If that is the ecosystem you want, it already exists today. Android is the place for you. Stop trying to ruin my ecosystem of choice.

 

[Brandon916]

It is not about the best deals, it is about convenience, security and privacy. I understand the rules for Apple's App Store. Do you know them for Epic's as an example? What about Steam's rules? Do they require Privacy labels?



This is exactly the problem. Once there is more than one, I cannot only go to one, I (and everyone of the millions of others who share my views) will be forced to have accounts at all of them, as some apps will only be on one and some will be on another. If that is the ecosystem you want, it already exists today. Android is the place for you. Stop trying to ruin my ecosystem of choice.

How is that any different if you want to shop at Amazon, Best Buy, or any retailers online? You'll still need to input your information. Inputting one more is that difficult? Do you hear yourself? Your eco system? You actually think you own this? There are apple customers out there that want options, sorry, you don't speak for all of us.

 

[Alan Wynn]

I'm not talking about Apple software.

When you say you are not talking about Apple's software, you mean you plan to write your own boot drivers? OS? Otherwise, it is Apple's software and you just have a license to it.

 

[Alan Wynn]

How is that any different if you want to shop at Amazon, Best Buy, or any retailers online?

When I buy physical goods, I have the goods and I rarely need to care about where it was purchased. If I purchase a disk drive from Amazon, Best Buy, Target or Walmart, it does not have a different set of rules as to how I can use it. It will not have varying rules for how it can track me. Most importantly, it will not matter when I have to replace my device where I purchased the drive that holds the backup.

You'll still need to input your information. Inputting one more is that difficult?

It is not just about adding information, nor is it likely to be just one more. On the Mac, there are hundreds of software vendors who require that software be purchased through their own store. If iOS were to follow the same path it would get the same result.

Every vendor has its own rules for upgrades, maintaining license codes, how easy it is to download new versions, or transfer the software to new devices. On iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/WatchOS, I do not have to do any of that. I can download everything from one place. There is one license and I do not have to keep track of it (the App Store does it for me).

I know that every app that allows social sign on will have to support Sign in with Apple (giving me a simple way of creating and managing accounts and preventing being on someone's mailing list for ever). I know that they will have limits as to what information they can collect and how they can track me. They are required to disclose a privacy label before I even purchase their software on the App Store.

Once there are multiple stores that all goes away. I will not have a choice, as vendors are unlikely to support multiple of them.

Do you hear yourself? Your eco system? You actually think you own this?

The quote was: "my ecosystem of choice", meaning the ecosystem I prefer. Sorry if you were confused by the English.

There are apple customers out there that want options, sorry, you don't speak for all of us.

I do not think I speak for you. I do think that I represent the vast majority of Apple users. The problem I have is that people who share your view have a choice but if you win, the people who share my view would not. You and those who share your view can purchase one a the vast array of Android (or AOSP) phones out there.

If you win, there will be no option for me and those who share my views other than live in the much degraded ecosystem you will have forced on us.

 

[pasamio]

The same issue exists in virtually every industry on the planet, not just tech either, and Apple certainly not the worst offender. To be honest, I think the 5-7 year update lifecycle they give their products is pretty darn respectable.

To an extent it does but Apple lock their boot loaders on their mobile devices in a way that makes it impossible to unlock them without a signed payload, which is the request. And it does extend beyond Apple, I don't think they're the only ones that would be impacted by this as there are plenty of places where companies stop supporting their software that they bundle with hardware they sell.

I agree that Apple support their devices for a long time, I'm not sure what mobile device that iOS has been supported for seven years, perhaps one of the iPads. Generally I've seen up to five years of support but I don't think iOS supports seven year old devices but happy to be shown different

Nothing stopping you installing your own OS if you can manage it, but so far I've only seen some early demos of linux in text mode working on an Apple device.

The challenge is that you need signed images or some sort of jailbreak hack to get into the device and that would be the ask that Apple sign these images so that they can load appropriately on the device.

No way do I think Apple should be responsible in any way for you to install something one of their vintage or obsolete devices wasn't designed to.

They need to permit it as they own the signing keys for the devices, in so far as they sign an installation bundle for the device for a reasonable fee, I don't think they need to be any further responsible. A vintage or obsolete device already are out of warranty with vintage devices already being in the grey zone of if they can be repaired or not anyway. If it was a device that was under warranty I don't see any problem with the warranty being voided if this path was taken.

 

[involuntarheely]

Have you even tried EPIC's own store? It's really an awful user experience lacking many features of competing stores. It's clearly only a money grab from them. Apple has worked hard on their store there's really only one place to go from their example and that's down.

if Apple's App store is sooo much better than any alternative then it should be really easy for Apple to open up iOS for alternative App stores, as they will be so inferior customers will keep choosing Apple's.
Apple's stance to me looks like not being confident about a product...

 

[TiggrToo]

if Apple's App store is sooo much better than any alternative then it should be really easy for Apple to open up iOS for alternative App stores, as they will be so inferior customers will keep choosing Apple's.
Apple's stance to me looks like not being confident about a product...

If you look at it myopically then sure, it can seem that way.

However if you expand your view to look at the user experience, the App store is just a part of the entire user experience ecosystem.

 

[4jasontv]

if Apple's App store is sooo much better than any alternative then it should be really easy for Apple to open up iOS for alternative App stores, as they will be so inferior customers will keep choosing Apple's.
Apple's stance to me looks like not being confident about a product...

I think you missed the point. Apple only wants good apps on their device. If companies like Epic can't make their own store usable than they can not be trusted to curate their iOS store.

 

[deevey]

I agree that Apple support their devices for a long time, I'm not sure what mobile device that iOS has been supported for seven years, perhaps one of the iPads. Generally I've seen up to five years of support but I don't think iOS supports seven year old devices but happy to be shown different

My iPhone 5s is running 12.4.8, but still has had no sign that there will be issues accessing the Appstore (yet).

I borrowed my buddies old iPad 3 recently, and it restored via iTunes to 9.3.6 (released in mid 2019!) where I then proceeded to download plenty of software via Appstore which worked just fine.

Old first gen iPad mini passed to my niece also restored to 9.3.6 and was able to install plenty of useful software.

So there's 3 examples of devices with significant useful updates for 7 years after release.

Also apps that run on older devices are STILL available on the Appstore e.g. iOS 8 Apps. But thats appears to be down to individual developers.

Now I'm all for security, but you aren't going get the latest updates on older hardware, period. Let's face it, the latest OS is going to run like a dog on anything lower spec.

I'm aware many apps will NOT work on older OS's at all, but that's to be expected seeing as they have old processors are far slower. Apple aren't going to allow the user to download an app when it's going to be an unusable experience. And developers are going to take advantage of modern OS features.

You Cite security as being an issue with Apples older OS's / Browser but are willing to risk allowing the device run Apps from any ol' location as an alternative ?

Apple are not going want ANY devices out in the wild that do not perform as well as possible within those limits, it would just taint the brand name.

If they were to do it, Apple would simply do it themselves and force developers to compile apps for older OS versions.

If you are a device hoarder I'd say simply sell the devices as soon as they come close to their last update cycle and you'll recoup a much bigger chunk of change on the secondhand market than any trade-in. Problem Solved.

 

[deevey]

if Apple's App store is sooo much better than any alternative then it should be really easy for Apple to open up iOS for alternative App stores, as they will be so inferior customers will keep choosing Apple's.
Apple's stance to me looks like not being confident about a product...

No, they lack confidence in you, the owner, not to install something stupid that becomes front page news and a stain on their reputation. And IMHO rightly so. Most folk on the planet are still oblivious that things they install "could" be a major security risk.

Remember all those iPhone power adaptors that caught fire ? How much did Apple spend on investigations and damage control after that incident. Something that quite literally had nothing to do with them.

The public won't care that a bad app came from an alternative App Store, they will only care about the headline which will read something like "Widespread Virus attacks iPhone Users"

Sure many folk are better informed than a couple of years ago, but malware has also moved with the times and scams become more sophisticated, any exploit, will be exploited if given a chance (like Epics "time bomb") Do you really want companies that operate like that to be allowed complete control of your device ?

 

[pasamio]

My iPhone 5s is running 12.4.8, but still has had no sign that there will be issues accessing the Appstore (yet).

That's seven years, around where I'd expect it to drop off. Wasn't the iPad I expected it to be but a solid example nonetheless. I'd be curious to see how much further you get though that generation is unique in that it's also the same age as the iPod Touch 6th generation that they sold until last year (sucks for anyone who bought one in the year prior to that since it doesn't support iOS13).

I borrowed my buddies old iPad 3 recently, and it restored via iTunes to 9.3.6 (released in mid 2019!) where I then proceeded to download plenty of software via Appstore which worked just fine.

Old first gen iPad mini passed to my niece also restored to 9.3.6 and was able to install plenty of useful software.

So there's 3 examples of devices with significant useful updates for 7 years after release.

As I said, I believed the iPads would get to 7 years and that's an example. That said 9.3.6 is definitely an interesting example of a release that wasn't a security update but a fix for the GPS rollover bug which from my reading would result in clock skew or other weird issues. Unique for sure but it's not exactly a shinning example of "significant" but it is an update nonetheless. It's also not a security update and doesn't fix any of the known vulnerabilities in the operating system.

Also apps that run on older devices are STILL available on the Appstore e.g. iOS 8 Apps. But thats appears to be down to individual developers.

One has to be wary of an app that says it works on an earlier release but crashes due to a dependency on a later OS.

Now I'm all for security, but you aren't going get the latest updates on older hardware, period. Let's face it, the latest OS is going to run like a dog on anything lower spec.

Absolutely and again the ask isn't for Apple to support it but to give me a way to support it myself.

I'm aware many apps will NOT work on older OS's at all, but that's to be expected seeing as they have old processors are far slower. Apple aren't going to allow the user to download an app when it's going to be an unusable experience. And developers are going to take advantage of modern OS features.

Not entirely true, I've had plenty of apps update themselves into crash oblivion. You've been lucky which is great for you but after I got bit by it, I disabled autoupdate because Apple not only allowed the download of an app but in fact pushed it themselves. I don't blame Apple for this but the app developer who didn't test enough. I'm stuck in a hard place of being cautious of which update will break an app though you've been luckier which is great to hear.

You Cite security as being an issue with Apples older OS's / Browser but are willing to risk allowing the device run Apps from any ol' location as an alternative ?

I would like to install an OS of my own choosing and accept the risks for the opportunity to be able to fix those issues. My issue was that there comes a point where known security issues don't get fixed and I'd like the ability to fix those issues. Every piece of code has issues, one merely needs to look at Apple's security release notes for demonstration of that. Whilst Apple for their App Store provides a level of security there is also the aspect of getting known vulnerabilities fixed. Once a platform becomes stagnant and no longer receives those updates, they're stuck with those vulnerabilities for ever. I'd at least like the opportunity to fix them.

Apple are not going want ANY devices out in the wild that do not perform as well as possible within those limits, it would just taint the brand name.

I dunno, they seemed perfectly happy with my phone running at reduced power secretly, I have the case action claim notice to prove it too. Pretty certain that tainted the brand.

If they were to do it, Apple would simply do it themselves and force developers to compile apps for older OS versions.

If you are a device hoarder I'd say simply sell the devices as soon as they come close to their last update cycle and you'll recoup a much bigger chunk of change on the secondhand market than any trade-in. Problem Solved.

I'm not interested in selling a perfectly functional device for less value than I can personally continue to reap from it. I'm not interested in an elaborate system to get developers to compile apps, I'm after a way for Apple to remove the software lock they put on the hardware.

 

[Mainyehc]

I want to start using this phrase more.

Yeah, it's a good one, isn't it? I took it from none other than John Gruber, from Daring Fireball:
https://daringfireball.net/2008/10/todays_claim_chowder (there's way more instances than just that, but this was the first hit)