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So when are you buying your Dell?

Apple is not a saint company, is not free of all vices. But they have the fewest vices and are by far the best PC company in my opinion, especially with regard to the quality and design of their PCs.

Apparently you think Dell makes better computers, has better service, and better warranty. Post pics of your next Dell!

Oh I have Dell monitors just alright instead of Apple ones. They're just too damn limited, Thunderbolt only? For $999? :rolleyes:

I love Apple enough, I own love Apple computers and devices enough, otherwise I wouldn't be here this long.
But I was also a long enough Apple users to realize that Apple products have their own hiccups and embarrassing failures too. I just could say in some occasions Mac is a better computer and in the others PC is a better option.

Ironically, I have my OSX installation failed and saved twice because I still have Windows BootCamp installed so I could tweak a few things and make backups.

Maybe you're new to the Mac world so you feel everything is fine and super perfect, yeah .. been there, done that.
You're claiming you're not an Apple fanboy but sorry, your posts say otherwise.

Apple products always "just work", they rarely hardly failed (well true to some degree, but their product fail just as the way they work .. automagically)
Apple basket is just as strong as ass handles (?)
Apple milk lasts 10x longer and more nutritious (Why? Because it's called Apple, well then you have missed the memo that blackberry in fact has more nutritional value than apple and tastes better too :eek:)

Let's just say your fanboi radiation peaking so high
fanboy-detector.jpg
 
Yeah great purchase, what a bargain! You saved loads. Now try selling it. The resale price is what speaks to the real value of your gaming rig.

Apple resales higher not because of some intrinsic value built in to the hardware, but because Apple controls the Mac market from top to bottom. They never discount their old machines. When the new model comes out, the old model stays the same price it was previously, and eventually disappears. This keeps the market for Macs pricey, and is one of the major reasons why Apple is able to maintain their reputation as the "premium" brand.

As for that home built computer. You might disparage it (and yeah, it is kinda ugly), but it'll likely run circles around that iMac for a quarter of the price without any sacrifices whatsoever. Sure, you get better customer support out of an Apple product. But if you build a PC yourself using only quality parts, it'll easily last you a good 8-10 years, just like a Mac.

I've been building my own computers since 2000, and the only trouble I've ever gotten out of an $800+ machine using decent parts is an occasional HDD failure...which could just as easily happen to an iMac because they use the same off the shelf drives as everyone else.

Quality is in the eye of the beholder. If you think paying more automatically means you're getting more, then more power to you.
 
Apple resales higher not because of some intrinsic value built in to the hardware, but because Apple controls the Mac market from top to bottom. They never discount their old machines. When the new model comes out, the old model stays the same price it was previously, and eventually disappears. This keeps the market for Macs pricey, and is one of the major reasons why Apple is able to maintain their reputation as the "premium" brand.

As for that home built computer. You might disparage it (and yeah, it is kinda ugly), but it'll likely run circles around that iMac for a quarter of the price without any sacrifices whatsoever. Sure, you get better customer support out of an Apple product. But if you build a PC yourself using only quality parts, it'll easily last you a good 8-10 years, just like a Mac.

I've been building my own computers since 2000, and the only trouble I've ever gotten out of an $800+ machine using decent parts is an occasional HDD failure...which could just as easily happen to an iMac because they use the same off the shelf drives as everyone else.

Quality is in the eye of the beholder. If you think paying more automatically means you're getting more, then more power to you.

I think there are some very nice looking cases on the market for a home built computer. It's not an all in one like an iMac, but you have control over every piece of it and you can easily change or upgrade as you desire. And there are many good monitor choices at the various size points too for the do it yourself crowd.
 
I think there are some very nice looking cases on the market for a home built computer. It's not an all in one like an iMac, but you have control over every piece of it and you can easily change or upgrade as you desire. And there are many good monitor choices at the various size points too for the do it yourself crowd.

Yup. I'm going miniature for my next computer, and my choices right now are between a 27" iMac (cuz they are good computers), or a Mini-ITX PC. Silverstone, who makes great cases in general, have an awesome watercooled mini tower that'd easily fit on my desk and looks quite nice without any use of windows on the side of the computer or LED abuse.

If you want to build a nice looking, quiet homebrew PC, there's absolutely nothing stopping.

If you want quality, you build quality. I could build an i7 watercooled Mini-ITX machine with an i7, 16GB ram, a 512GB SSD, and a Geforce GTX680 and pair it with a 27" Eizo Flexscan. That'd cost you just as much as an equivalent iMac, but is overall a much, much better computer. The only disadvantage would be limited to 16GB ram to the iMacs 32GB (which is a big deal), but if I wanted that, I could upgrade up a step and get a slightly larger PC.

Apple makes good stuff. No one should ever doubt that. But they don't make THE best stuff around. Anyone who claims Macs work perfectly 100% of the time while everything else breaks on you if you so much as look at it wrong is only fooling themselves. With Apple, you're paying quite a bit for the brand name alone, and you're not always getting the best hardware for the price.
 
....

Apple makes good stuff. No one should ever doubt that. But they don't make THE best stuff around. Anyone who claims Macs work perfectly 100% of the time while everything else breaks on you if you so much as look at it wrong is only fooling themselves. With Apple, you're paying quite a bit for the brand name alone, and you're not always getting the best hardware for the price.

But ... but building or replacing your own PC components is like longing for the '80, '90, or '00s? Say someone with too much :apple: koolaid :p

LOL .. Joke aside, you are absolutely right, amen to that buddy. Good to find someone with some sense.

No one doubt Apple makes good products, they're great in their own way, though the way they control and lock in your computers make it troublesome for us (and many times for Apple itself) to fix when something goes awry.

But saying that they are the best and everyone else is crap .. well that's a bit ..
emoticon1.jpg
 
But ... but building or replacing your own PC components is like longing for the '80, '90, or '00s? Say someone with too much :apple: koolaid :p

LOL .. Joke aside, you are absolutely right, amen to that buddy. Good to find someone with some sense.

No one doubt Apple makes good products, they're great in their own way, though the way they control and lock in your computers make it troublesome for us (and many times for Apple itself) to fix when something goes awry.

But saying that they are the best and everyone else is crap .. well that's a bit .. Image

Ok then. Who's better? Who makes a better PC, all things considered, not just for "gaming".
 
Ok then. Who's better? Who makes a better PC, all things considered, not just for "gaming".

Depends on what you want. If price is no object, I'd recommend an iMac to someone who wants a sleek, low hassle machine. If they want a little more power in a conventional tower setup, along with the best warranty of any manufacturer, I'd recommend a Falcon.

If they want a machine that gets them by without costing them the bank, I'd suggest a mid-line Dell. They're pretty solid.

Laptops? Asus or Lenovo. I still consider Apple as probably the best laptop manufacturer out there, but those two companies come damn close to matching them. Plus they have a wider variety of machines to choose from that give you more bang for the buck.

If they need a workstation PC, then HP makes one of the best there is. There might be a few boutique manufacturers who make one better, but the HP Z line is generally considered to be top notch. Apple has their work cut out for them if they want to match HP with their next rev Mac Pro (if it even comes out).

Want to get the most out of your machine by controlling every component that goes into it? Build your own. You can go Core i7 or even Xeon if you want to build a workstation, EVGA and/or Asus components, Corsair ram and PSU's, and a Silverstone case. Going DIY gives you the most options, the most power, at the lowest cost per part.

Like I said, Apple does make some damn good stuff, but they're not the only good option out there. There are plenty of others.
 
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Apple resales higher not because of some intrinsic value built in to the hardware, but because Apple controls the Mac market from top to bottom. They never discount their old machines. When the new model comes out, the old model stays the same price it was previously, and eventually disappears. This keeps the market for Macs pricey, and is one of the major reasons why Apple is able to maintain their reputation as the "premium" brand.

As for that home built computer. You might disparage it (and yeah, it is kinda ugly), but it'll likely run circles around that iMac for a quarter of the price without any sacrifices whatsoever. Sure, you get better customer support out of an Apple product. But if you build a PC yourself using only quality parts, it'll easily last you a good 8-10 years, just like a Mac.

I've been building my own computers since 2000, and the only trouble I've ever gotten out of an $800+ machine using decent parts is an occasional HDD failure...which could just as easily happen to an iMac because they use the same off the shelf drives as everyone else.

Quality is in the eye of the beholder. If you think paying more automatically means you're getting more, then more power to you.

That's not what I think. Paying more gets you more in the case of Apple. What other company actually gives you much better products than the rest? What other computer gives you something that uses something like 50 watts at full-tilt but averages maybe 15 watts during regular use?

If you were to make a complete comparison, and I mean using a full BOM, everything from the case materials to the boards to the wireless keyboard, then comparing features from Bluetooth to quietness to weight to CPU/memory/GPU speed and comparing that to the comparable Dell or HP, you would no doubt find the Apple to be the bargain. I do product development so if this were my job that's what i'd be comparing.

I've built my own computers. I had my last one for the last 8 years and for the most part it didn't have trouble. But Windows nags every month with the blue screens. It couldn't even sleep properly. It was loud when the fans were on. The monitor was average, even though it was one of the best among the aftermarket. Why should I put up with all that? The money spent on a home computer is a total waste if you ask me. It runs half-ass AND you don't get a single dollar back for what you spend.

Apple got their act together with OS X. but 2011 was the first time I think they got the whole package right. Now i have a 2012. Apple's have always been pricey, but considering the level engineering and development they put into this one, this is a deal. A one-piece Al case (pretty incredible achievement) says it all.

Also Apple's resale value stems from one thing: demand vs supply. There is nothing else that determines the price. So what if Apple kept the price high? If they sold awful products, they wouldn't sell any regardless of price. Only if Apple sold LESS could they affect market prices. Fact is, Apple makes millions and millions of machines, sells all of them, and is breaking their back to make MORE.... and the resale prices are as high as ever. If that doens't tell you something about Apple's products, you're too thick to argue with.

Apple isn't perfect, but they are closer to it than anyone else I would say.

So I'll ask you or anyone else: who makes a better PC for the masses (includes me)? I'll sell my new 2012 and buy your suggestion tomorrow if you can show me a product that's head and shoulders superior/the best.
 
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Renzatic's post pretty much sums it up, no need to add anything.

Apple isn't perfect, but they are closer to it than anyone else I would say.

So I'll ask you or anyone else: who makes a better PC for the masses (includes me)? I'll sell my new 2012 and buy your suggestion tomorrow if you can show me a product that's head and shoulders superior/the best.

Apple is not the only one who makes good products, or services. Other OEMs give you option from the cheapest to the most expensive products while Apple plays a bit more on the latter.

Talking about power consumption, Apple Thunderbolt Display typically uses 93 watts, while Dell U2713HM stays around 50watts. Who's the best energy saver now? But that wouldn't matter to you, right? :p

You were talking about great design, material and engineering Apple have in their products, along with sleekness, quietness, power saving all that.
But other manufacturers also have this flexibility, greater connections, better ergonomic, support and compatibility. How could you discount that out as an equally great feature? Those values Apple could not provide? Even at Apple's premium price point?

Praising Apple and bashing others as crap no matter what. Well suit yourself in the cave, I'm not 12 y.o so I wouldn't act like one.
 
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There is a reason for 256 GB ...

My complaint is that the fusion iMac is one HDD failure away from the junk pile, once Applecare time is up. Because then it is either unrepairable or apple-price repairable, just because Apple chose to make the iMac impossible to open for mere mortals.

Since All HDDs fail eventually, buying an imac is to wait for the inevitable hard drive failure. Unless you really like dumping hardware in the trash/ebay when the warranty is up.

At least with 256GB SSD you have something less likely to fail, and replaceable. Stick all the non-app files out on TB-accessible HDDs, the drives you can replace yourself for $150 once you have a TB-USB3 solution.

Or, as I am doing, wait to see what the new Pro looks like. I hope for a very expandable, versatile minitower, but that is probably hoping for too much.

// PMG5 dual-2.3 / 15" Retina MBP / 13" non-Retina MBP / 2011 iMac
 
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Depends on what you want. If price is no object, I'd recommend an iMac to someone who wants a sleek, low hassle machine. If they want a little more power in a conventional tower setup, along with the best warranty of any manufacturer, I'd recommend a Falcon.

If they want a machine that gets them by without costing them the bank, I'd suggest a mid-line Dell. They're pretty solid.

Laptops? Asus or Lenovo. I still consider Apple as probably the best laptop manufacturer out there, but those two companies come damn close to matching them. Plus they have a wider variety of machines to choose from that give you more bang for the buck.

If they need a workstation PC, then HP makes one of the best there is. There might be a few boutique manufacturers who make one better, but the HP Z line is generally considered to be top notch. Apple has their work cut out for them if they want to match HP with their next rev Mac Pro (if it even comes out).

Want to get the most out of your machine by controlling every component that goes into it? Build your own. You can go Core i7 or even Xeon if you want to build a workstation, EVGA and/or Asus components, Corsair ram and PSU's, and a Silverstone case. Going DIY gives you the most options, the most power, at the lowest cost per part.

Like I said, Apple does make some damn good stuff, but they're not the only good option out there. There are plenty of others.

No excuse for Apple not keeping up with the workstations... but I can understand why Silicon Graphics and Sun went bust, and Apple may be shy to stick around. Small market, small revenue, margins can't make up for it.

Ok you did make me curious with the Falcon suggestion, I used to shop them. Check my pics, am I missing something here?
 

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At least with 256GB SSD you have something less likely to fail, and replaceable.
// PMG5 dual-2.3 / 15" Retina MBP / 13" non-Retina MBP / 2011 iMac

SSD and HDD have similar MTBF.... 1-2 million hours. So the same failure rate.
 
Come on Apple.

At their price point it's time to abandon the slow old HDD's.

300/600 for 256/512? That's criminal.
 
That's not what I think. Paying more gets you more in the case of Apple. What other company actually gives you much better products than the rest? What other computer gives you something that uses something like 50 watts at full-tilt but averages maybe 15 watts during regular use?

That's because they're using laptop components in their iMacs. They don't use full on desktop PC hardware.

I've built my own computers. I had my last one for the last 8 years and for the most part it didn't have trouble. But Windows nags every month with the blue screens. It couldn't even sleep properly. It was loud when the fans were on.

If you built it right, you wouldn't have been experiencing any blue screens. Blue screens don't just happen randomly due to software conflict anymore. You only see them if you've got some big hardware issue going on. Like half assed drivers written for cheap parts by a cheap manufacturer (which is why you only buy brand name stuff), or you had something going bad. Besides that one blue screen I saw during my time in the Win8 beta, it had been years and years since I've had to deal with one.

Not even being able to sleep properly? Once again, a no name parts manufacturer is the likely culprit here. When Windows has a problem going to sleep, 99% of the time it's due to the hardware not supporting all the feature, and it gives you a conflict.

Granted, with Macs you don't have to worry about this. Complete control of the hardware and software is one of the big advantages Apple has over the OEMs. But it isn't exactly a widespread issue in the OEM world. Not unless you're buying cheap stuff to save a few bucks.

The monitor was average, even though it was one of the best among the aftermarket. Why should I put up with all that? The money spent on a home computer is a total waste if you ask me. It runs half-ass AND you don't get a single dollar back for what you spend.

Sounds more like a failure to do your research to me. What monitor was it?

Plus it's not like Apple makes the best monitor money can buy. It's good, but is generally considered rather middling in comparison to some others in its price bracket. Like the screen on the iMac? Yeah, it's alright. You wouldn't use it if you were a pro publisher, though. You'd use an Eizo or a high end Dell for that.

Basically, if you want a monitor to match what you'd get from Apple, you buy in the same price range. You can't compare even an iMac monitor to a chintzy $250 dealie you can pick up at Best Buy. You have to buy a $700 to get into the same class, then you start comparing and contrasting.

Apple got their act together with OS X. but 2011 was the first time I think they got the whole package right. Now i have a 2012. Apple's have always been pricey, but considering the level engineering and development they put into this one, this is a deal. A one-piece Al case (pretty incredible achievement) says it all.

I'll give Apple props for making some of the best designed computers around. The rMBP and new iMac are not only pretty striking looking machines, but also pack a lot of power into a surprisingly small amount of space. I don't think anyone in the PC scene has a computer as fast as a 27" iMac in such a thin chassis.

But if you need pure power, you probably won't be worrying too much about how thin it is. You'll want something you can stuff all the latest and greatest into, and can upgrade later.

Want a small machine? Then buy a Mini-ITX one. They're still bigger than an iMac, sure. But the trade off is you're getting more power and flexibility.

Also Apple's resale value stems from one thing: demand vs supply. There is nothing else that determines the price. So what if Apple kept the price high? If they sold awful products, they wouldn't sell any regardless of price. Only if Apple sold LESS could they affect market prices. Fact is, Apple makes millions and millions of machines, sells all of them, and is breaking their back to make MORE.... and the resale prices are as high as ever. If that doens't tell you something about Apple's products, you're too thick to argue with.

Not really. Apple has been pretty clever about how they've controlled the Mac market. Mainly, they maintain the premiumness (I guess that's a word) of the brand by making it almost impossible to get a cheap one. Apple doesn't mark down the price of their older inventory, and only sells it indirectly once a new rev comes out. Like a new 2012 iMac will still cost the same in 2014 as the day they came out. Because of that, people selling their old iMacs don't have a reason to cut down on the price too severely to get it to move.

If someone wants a cheaper iMac, all someone has to do is sell their used machine off for a little less than what you'd get a new one for. There's no other way to get a Mac for any less. It's a well controlled market, maintained both by Apple and their resellers.

----------

Ok you did make me curious with the Falcon suggestion, I used to shop them. Check my pics, am I missing something here?

Though with Falcon, you're talking about Apple's equal in build quality and customer support, not being able to get the same for cheaper. If anything, they the one PC manufacturer out there who's more expensive than Apple.

I mean comeon. They use steel and polished granite for their cases. You don't get much more pointlessly fancy than that.
 
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Talking about power consumption, Apple Thunderbolt Display typically uses 93 watts, while Dell U2713HM stays around 50watts. Who's the best energy saver now? But that wouldn't matter to you, right? :p

You were talking about great design, material and engineering Apple have in their products, along with sleekness, quietness, power saving all that.
But other manufacturers also have this flexibility, greater connections, better ergonomic, support and compatibility. How could you discount that out as an equally great feature? Those values Apple could not provide? Even at Apple's premium price point?

Praising Apple and bashing others as crap no matter what. Well suit yourself in the cave, I'm not 12 y.o so I wouldn't act like one.

OK well i'll ignore the 12 yo comment. I'll make it brief since you've proven yourself incapable of argument without insult.

Actually Dell lists 100W max, while the 27" iMac lists 80W max. And there's no computer inside the Dell. Not sure where you get your facts. But this debate can't be settled without a test.

I don't discount those other features, but in the end, 95% of people, 95% of the time, don't care about flexibility, expandability. Apple support and connections are equal i'd say. Compatibility is the one thing i'll give you. Apple needs to talk to more developers.
 
I really hate how Apple do this, i got my iMac on launch and had to go with the 3TB fusion when a 500gb SSD only option would have been my choice if i had it. Anyway i have my 3TB fusion setup really well now so ill let this one slip :)
 
No excuse for Apple not keeping up with the workstations... but I can understand why Silicon Graphics and Sun went bust, and Apple may be shy to stick around. Small market, small revenue, margins can't make up for it.

Ok you did make me curious with the Falcon suggestion, I used to shop them. Check my pics, am I missing something here?

You're missing

Better GPU (iMac's GTX680MX is decent but nowhere close to 680 no matter how you play it)
Liquid cooling .. oh yeah it's not just fancy liquid, it keeps your computer cool and quieter than Mac at the same time. Sleek, indeed :cool:
Three years warranty. You haven't count in AppleCare for your iMac

It might not sleek Aluminum case (your favorite element, yes?) but again there are things iMac could not provide compared to equally premium-priced Falcon computer you showed.

Just because you don't need those features, doesn't mean it's crap and I believe someone else would be able to appreciate it.
 
I don't discount those other features, but in the end, 95% of people, 95% of the time, don't care about flexibility, expandability. Apple support and connections are equal i'd say. Compatibility is the one thing i'll give you. Apple needs to talk to more developers.

If we're going by the computer using majority, then 95% of people won't care about the 27" iMac. Who wants to spend $2100+ on a computer and use it only for homework and emailing grandma? They can buy a $400 iPad for that.
 
OK well i'll ignore the 12 yo comment. I'll make it brief since you've proven yourself incapable of argument without insult.

Actually Dell lists 100W max, while the 27" iMac lists 80W max. And there's no computer inside the Dell. Not sure where you get your facts. But this debate can't be settled without a test.

I was talking about 27" Apple Thunderbolt display being more power hungry, compared to Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM. No computers on both. Not everything about Apple is a power saver.
Proof? Read on about power consumption on
Dell U2713HM vs. Apple Thunderbolt Display

I don't discount those other features, but in the end, 95% of people, 95% of the time, don't care about flexibility, expandability. Apple support and connections are equal i'd say. Compatibility is the one thing i'll give you. Apple needs to talk to more developers.

Yeah .. whatever you say, sir. Nice statistics though. 95% people who doesn't care about performance don't buy $3000 iMac.

Werd to the granite. Now that is some fancy sh!!t.

Yeah .. like Aluminum computer case with friction stir welding, as if it makes your computer faster, right? :rolleyes:
 
Come on Apple.

At their price point it's time to abandon the slow old HDD's.

300/600 for 256/512? That's criminal.


Last time i checked,a good quality 256gb ssd is about $250 - newegg, microcenter, amazon, etc, so the apple price tax seems actually more reasonable then lets say memory prices.

----------

Any idea who makes those 256/512 ssd options for apple? What kind of performance should we expect?
I am actually in the process of returning my 2nd refurb due to yellow screen problem and will consider going with a new one (sacrifice cpu to stayin my price range) just to get ssd only option vs my current fusion setup. I am thinking base 21.5 with 16gb and 256gb ssd is a very nice setup - easy to add more storage via external nas or even thunderbolt/usb3 and overall the system should produce less heat and noise.
 
Last time i checked,a good quality 256gb ssd is about $250 - newegg, microcenter, amazon, etc, so the apple price tax seems actually more reasonable then lets say memory prices.

----------



You didn't mention the 512GB because that's the ridiculous one ;) 300 is still a little high, you stated a price that was basically highest you'll ever see one. There are plenty of SSD's as good as the ones Apple uses for 169-199 all the time.

As for the 512, $600 is insanity. 512GB can be found on sale for 300, and any time of the year good ssd's are around 350-400$$.

Thats a large markup, and rather annoying.
 
Yeah .. whatever you say, sir. Nice statistics though. 95% people who doesn't care about performance don't buy $3000 iMac.



Yeah .. like Aluminum computer case with friction stir welding, as if it makes your computer faster, right? :rolleyes:

I was referring to 95% of desktop buyers, but if you want to be literal and miss the point, ok. 95% of desktop consumers aren't "power users" like yourself, and therefore wouldn't care about all that i'd wager.

"Friction stir welding" or just friction welding allows a cooler, more efficient computer. Which is what the iMac is all about. Speed comes second, although this latest iMac is damn fast.
 
How do you propose they fit a drive sled in an iMac? Same example goes for removability of other components, like why Iphones don't have removable batteries. It takes (wasted) time and materials to make removable components. Yes RAM which is always demanded, should be replaceable. But HDs, not so much. The rest of the computing population doesn't care as long as it's big enough. Want speed? Get the Fusion (which really works well).

Why design a system of hinges, locks, screws and magnets for the 0.1% who upgrade their HDs and other things yearly?

IMacs are designed for regular people who don't care about 50 choices. If you want cracking power and expansion galore, obviously go Pro. If you want fine gradations of BTO options... go Dell. They probably have about 50 unique model #s of the Latitude line alone.

I'm not an Apple fanboy. I was converted because i'm damn tired of Windows' problems and embarrassing resale. Let's see what Macs offer. Lo and Behold it's damn, really damn good.

Again, it's the "don't like it, buy a PC" non-argument. You admit you're personally happy with the iMac the way it is, that's fine but if you wanted a larger hard drive at the point of sale, or an SSD, you'd be paying through the nose for it and that's point I was making. If they can't be fair with pricing, at least allowing some degree of user-upgradability is the next best thing. The iMac and Macbook Air are the only system that don't offer some degree of upgradability but even the iMac allows RAM upgrades on the 27" model.
 
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