Apple AirPlay Private Key Exposed, Opening Door to AirPort Express Emulators

[MiamiBourne]

AirFrame and Airview pulled?

AirFrame and AirView, I dont see these in the iPad app store anymore...

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

MagnusVonMagnum -
Unless you've purchased / converted music in Apple lossless format it IS way better quality.

95% of my music is from my massive CD collection and it has been ripped to Apple Lossless. Does Sonos sell lossless music? If not, WTF are you talking about? You're then comparing apples to oranges. You can just as easily make an Apple lossless library on iTunes as a Flac one for Sonos or XBMC or whatever the heck you prefer to use. One review of Sonos I read says it does not support WMA Lossless (which IS sold online via Music Giants) so that is moot as well.

As for the whole "AAC versus Lossless (of any kind)" thing, I will not even bother arguing about the sonic transparency of 256kbit VBR AAC (Lets just say I've never heard about anyone proving they could tell the difference in a double blind test. I'm well aware of "audiophile" tendencies as I used to be one until I realized 80% of it is snake-oil BS. I now buy what actually makes a difference (high quality speakers and room treatments) and I've never had anyone complain about either of my two systems). I did my own extensive testing between my lossless rips and 256 AAC and I could never tell the difference. For convenience sake, my own lossless library is archive only now. iTunes lets me handle mobile/home in a seamless manner by using only one library for both (something that would be useless with Sonos as it is clearly only home use. You can't play most lossless formats in the car whereas my old JVC and my new factory Subaru WRX player's USB ports handle AAC (as well as MP3 and WMA) just fine. There's nothing quite like taking up to 64GB of music on a USB stick with you on the road. It's like having a 1000 disc CD changer in the car.

Im making the comparison of my situation listening to FLAC vs the masses who purchase mp3s on iTunes. You could rip your music in Apple Lossless for sure, but then your hooked into iTunes, cant play on WMP or most other mp3s other than iPods.

And you can't play FLAC on an iPhone/iPod so what's your point? Who wants to use that much space on them even if they can play a lossless format? But then that goes back to the "golden ear" Audiophile BS where green marker pens can magically make CDs sound better and frequency response deviations of +0.01 dB on a $5000 outboard DAC supposedly somehow improve the sound quality over stock Bur-Brown receiver.

Like with a lot of stuff iTunes related, if you go that route, your stuck. Even the all inclusive Sonos S5 sounds better than the best iPod dock on the market (Bose 10 / Zeppelin whichever grabs your boat the most).

WTF is that crap? A dock?

Sorry, I don't use iPod docks or crap dock speakers. Why would I need to ues my iPod except with portable headphones EVER? That's what a home system is for and the whole point of AppleTV. It runs off my server not my iPod. And you couldn't pay me to own Bose speakers (overpriced over-marketed 'mid-fi' if there ever was such a thing). I mean you were talking about a "pricey" system right? So why are you lumping iPod docks into the discussion???

I use a 3TB media drive powering 5 rooms of audio and 2 rooms of video (soon to be 3 rooms of video) off one server. The home theater room uses PSB speakers for 6.1 sound. The music/piano room has $2000/pair Carver AL-III ribbon speakers (6 feet tall if you're never heard of them and its ribbons drivers were used by Genesis in their $50,000 a pair MK2 system; talk about mark-up....) running off a custom active crossover a 550 watts per channel total (bi-amped). My den and bedroom have Klipsch self-powered sat/sub combos (best sounding "PC" speaker ever made, BTW and they sound great in relatively small rooms) and my exercise room has Definitive Tech bi-poles (re-used from an older system).

Sonos isnt cheap for sure, but that is why I said people who have no shortage of money at the start of my thread.

If they have no shortage of money, they wouldn't be using Sonos self-powered speakers....

Some people have massive Mac systems, those people shouldn't skimp when it comes to music, if they like music, or video for that matter.

Let me tell you something about 'some' Mac users in case you didn't know. They are sold on the label/name/marketing/love the same way some people think Bose is 'high-end' stereo. I'm not saying Macs are bad (I happen to like the OS better than Windows and the lack of malware), but they ARE generally overpriced for what you get in terms of hardware. So just because someone spent a lot on a Mac doesn't mean they necessarily have good taste or are into computers.

One of the big features of Sonos which you obviously arent aware of is that Sonos DOESNT hog your bandwidth. It uses its own Mesh network which

I'm running a Netgear WNDR 3700, which is a dual-radio model with simultaneous 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands. My media runs on the 5GHz band and so it does not interfere with anything on the 2.4GHz band, but UNLIKE your Sonos, I can use the 5GHz band for other things if I need to (e.g. say I'm having a gaming party and I need more wireless bandwidth; I'm not going to be watching TV or listening to music, so I can use the 5GHz band for more computers to run full speed. You cannot use the Sonos network for anything BUT Sonos AND you run the risk of interference with existing networks (i.e. most people only run 2.4GHz and there are only 3 channels on 2.4 with no interference with neighboring networks. So if your neighbors are also 2.4GHz and you are running TWO 2.4GHz networks yourself... well bad things can happen like slower rates. Now that Negear router in question costs around $140, which isn't much more than your Sonos (useless) network and it runs TWO bands at the same time. It can also act as a cheap NAS if you plug in a USB drive.

works independantly of your home wireless network, hence no bandwidth constraints, which is why you can have up to 32 Sonos units all working AT THE SAME TIME on the same or different sources whilst not affecting the bandwidth capability of your home network. Try using even 2 AppleTV2s at the same time and see how much of your bandwidth is left.

You don't seem to know much about networking, guy. All 32 of those Sonos units are still on ONE network. Given they are running just AUDIO, there shouldn't be much bandwidth issues with running them at the same time since audio uses next to nothing to begin with. But to compare Apples to Apples, you would have to question what effect running two AppleTV units with just audio would have (answer: not much). Now if you're using my Netgear router, it has NO effect on my 2.4GHz data radio what-so-ever even if I'm running HD video on both at the same time. Now you might want to question what will happen to *YOUR* home network when you start running your POPCORN thingy across it! Unlike my network, you cannot run it on the Sonos network so you HAVE to use another network (unless you are going to just use a hard drive with it in which case you'd need one for every popcorn unit/room you use). I have TWO networks I can use for ANYTHING so I don't have a problem running multiple devices. I can even run another AppleTV on the OTHER network if bandwidth started running short using multple rooms at once (Now I personally cannot be in more than one place at a time, so this isn't much of an issue, but you could have 4 HD streaming sources at once on my system with no issues...i.e. 4 rooms of HD steraming off one server).

Also, if you live in a large house, or one with thick walls, or you want to listen outside, because Sonos recreates its own Mesh network each time it hits a Sonos unit strength signal on the opposite side of the house to the router is still very high, each Zone Player acts like a new Sonos signal source.

Same thing as bridging multiple radios. It kills bandwidth on that network in return, but I guess that doesn't matter for just audio since it doesn't need much bandwidth....

Yup its expensive but I bought my first Sonos bit of kit in 2006. Since then ive added 3 more units, 2 of which were new redesigned units released a couple of years ago. Ive also added a second controller when they moved to touchscreen 2 years ago. And you know what? It all works seamlessly with each other. Old hardware, new hardware, built up over time. New features

Um, so? My 1st Gen AppleTV gets along just fine with my 2nd Gen AppleTV (i.e. the newer box can run anything the older box could run). My Airport Express units can play any audio from iTunes as well. I see no advantage once again. You keep touting features that are available on both platforms (e.g. lossless audio, backwards compatibility with older devices, etc.)

the house. Can you integrate AppleTV2 with 1? Can you honestly say in 5
years time your money spent will still work with the rest of your AppleTV system as they upgrade and add new features? When 3 year old sounddocks wont even charge new ipods I would hazard a guess...no.

WTF are you talking about sound docks again for? There are no sound docks in my system and WTF do they have to do with AppleTV??? NOTHING. And yes ATV1 and ATV2 integrate just fine together. Yes, ATV2 can play formats ATV1 cannot (i.e. 1080p files, higher bit-rates, etc.), but ATV2 can play everything ATV1 can play so my existing library for ATV1 works fine with ATV2. And given ATV2 is dirt cheap (i.e. $99), even if I did want to replace my Gen1 devices, it would only cost me $198 to do so for two rooms.

NAS or WHS arent cheap but youve just contradicted yourself.

Sonos will also play from any networked PC, MAC, External hard drive on Airport, netbook. To use a NAS you dont have to install XBMC on it, it works

How is that? You kept touting it doesn't need a networked PC and now you're touting that it can work with one. And you're still comparing Sonos to AppleTV. XBMC is more for video. Why would I need XBMC for audio? I don't use/need/want Flac. If audio was all I used, I would never need XBMC. A $200 netbook that can run iTunes is no more than a cheap NAS and it can also be used on-the-go as a laptop (whereas an NAS is just an NAS and useless for anything else...kind of like Sonos Net versus a dual-radio router).

Sonos also gives you multi room grouping. Group 2 or more zones together and enjoy synced music wherever you want it. Not miliseconds out syncing like Sony or Logitech but 100% synced. Dropping zones can be done at the flick of the controller.

Once again, you keep touting something AppleTV also does! In fact, Airport Express alone will do this as well! I can play any room or any number of my rooms synced together AND use a n AppleTV room separately for something else (like watching a movie) and control it ALL (audio and video) from one iOS device (i.e. iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad).

Read a review of a new album in the newspaper? Listen to it 5 seconds later on Sonos.

It downloads an entire lossless album in 5 seconds? Wow, you must have a FAST network connection.

Its a high end multi room music system vs a limited single streaming unit.

If you are going to continue to mis-state the truth, there is nothing else to talk about. AppleTV sync and work together the SAME way. I'm thinking you don't really know anything about them.

Cost seems to be the big issue with you, so I wonder if you own a mac mini as opposed to 3 macbook pros, an imac, apple tv2 etc etc as many posters
here have?

Dude, my hardware is and has been in my signature. You don't have to wonder at all....

With Apple TV you DONT have all your movies or music or internet radio. you

I most certainly DO have them. You must enjoy making up things.

have limited experiences with all 3. No 1080p, no DVD images (Popcorn will load your dvd image in exactly the same way your dvd player would), wont

XBMC will load a DVD image EXACTLY the same way my DVD player would. WHY on EARTH would I *WANT* to load it that way???? (I do use it for some interactive pRoN discs where I need the structure intact but otherwise....) I *HATE* menu systems, FBI warnings and previews! By encoding my movies into high quality H264, I get none of those bad things AND I cut DVDs down to 1-2GB each and so I can fit a LOT more on a 3TB drive (which is already getting full). And yes, AppleTV can play encoded sub-titles (and XBMC will play all the formats and sub-titles imaginable). My 3-year old projector is 720p and my plasma is 720p so I don't currently worry about 1080p playback, but like I said, I can easily convert my Gen1 ATV units to play 1080p with a $30 card and a simple USB stick and a reboot. I cannot even buy a Popcorn for $30.

Its sure nice to have it in one box, but *it* is very very limited. Dedicated systems will always trump jack of all trade systems.

I don't see ANYTHING limited about my system and I've seen plenty of dedicated systems that are CRAP so spare me the BS lecture.

So for the price of your ONE room audio and video, I could have SIX rooms using AppleTV2 with both video and audio and still have $29 to spare

Except you couldnt do that could you? Your wireless network would be crippled with half that many running at the same time. I can assure you I can play a 1080P movie AND have 3 other Sonos units streaming at the same time. Try that sometime with 4 AppleTVs...

Except that I CAN and HAVE done that. My wireless network has two radios (HELLO!?) so it's not crippled at all. YOUR setup WOULD be crippled, though since your system has an AUDIO ONLY network for its 2nd network so the minute you tried to stream to a Popcorn you would be screwed. I can play at LEAST 4 720p movies at the same time plus a few audio channels before my network would be maxed out. And then there's always the option of Cat6 cable if I REALLY wanted to run a lot of rooms of video off a single network.

With XBMC installed, it can play any format (just like Popcorn Hour).
No, no it cant. DVD isos? All subtitle formats?

Yes and yes.

1080P?

With a $30 crystal card added, yes.

Also your slightly expanded feature set (not out of the box) is achieved by essentially hacking your AppleTV 2, so good luck on the next firmware update.

Good luck? If there's a problem, the update has ALWAYS been available within a few days. You simply don't update for a couple of days until the change is made (same as a Hackintosh). "Hacking" it is simplicity itself on a Gen1 ATV (program a USB stick with available program, unplug, plug in USB stick and boot. Wait for it to say reboot and unplug and remove USB stick and start it up. Voila. You now have XBMC and Boxee available). ATV2 is just slightly more involved.

Hell, I can even buy a cheap 3.5" internal hard drive and slot that into my popcorn hour if I want to store the films locally, what sized hard drive does Apple TV2 have? Oh wait.

Apple TV 1 came with 120GB and 320GB drives and can use any 2.5 drive. It can also use any external USB2 drive (including a 3TB drive) once hacked.

Your not seeing the advantages with zero configuration audio system, and a play all with no hassles video system? The only mucking about in my system is if you want a nice shinier interface with Popcorn Hour. You have to convert audio, replace (essentially) the OS to XBMC, have a linux system and a Crystal card to play 1080p on an OLDER Apple TV (your not factoring in this stuff with your price or integrated system arguments are you?) and you STILL have a far more limited setup.

No dude. You have the limited setup. You're stuck with an audio only network, a crappy interface (a polished turd is still a turd) and have to juggle between multiple devices. I have multiple rooms of audio and multiple rooms of video all connected with ONE setup/server/system and able to play 100% of my media from ONE interface and menu. To get my 5 rooms of audio and 2 rooms of video using Popcorn + Sonos, it would cost you about $1950 for the audio portion (minimum with network) and $400 minimum for the video (which is also duplicating two of the rooms of audio so those rooms cost you effectively $550 each) for a grand total of around $2350! With AppleTV it would cost you $600 TOTAL ($730 if you factor in the cost of a Netgear router, which isn't fair either since you would still need a home network in your system, so add another $100 for a single channel 802.11N).

Reading thru your post I guarantee you your costs are higher than $99 and in about 2 years time your system will be redundant.

I don't know how it could be redundant other than if one "needs" 1080p video for such a system. Apple chose 720p limitations because of their iTunes store. The hardware can decode 1080p just fine. It may well be possible for Apple to enable 1080p output with a simple firmware update. The decoding chip already handles 1080p.

Look if you like Sonos, fine, just don't tell me it's so much better and then come up with nonsensical reasons to justify thousands of dollars when you could have had the same thing (and a LOT more with the video capabilities) for a few hundred dollars.

and really its only advantage is a cheap price and movie rentals, in glorious 720P, but if I want to feed my 42" 1080p plasma with subpar 720P video I could use the xbox or PS3 sitting under the TV, which I also dont bother with. For audiophiles or moviephiles it doesn't cut it.

Dude, I had to laugh at that last bit. You rip on 720p video and then you tell me you have a 42" television.... LOL. That's priceless. How far back do you sit? If it's more than about 6 feet you CANNOT SEE 1080p PERIOD. That's the limit of the eye's resolving depth. It's why I bought a 720p plasma for my 46" TV upstairs. I got it for $499 and it's a Panasonic (best plasmas out there). It wouldn't do me ANY good to have 1080p because my viewing chair is 10 feet away. And honestly, I would not WANT to sit closer than 8-9 feet away from a TV because the eye needs to be focused on infinity or it gets uncomfortable after awhile (i.e. eyestrain like with monitors over time).

Now my 93" screen downstairs with a then near top-of-its-class 720p projector (Panasonic PT-AX100U) at 9 feet away COULD resolve 1080p so I will probably eventually replace it with a 1080p model, but I guarantee you I would rather watch 720p on my 93" screen than 4080p (if it were available now) on your 42" set. And I've never EVER had anyone complain that 720p wasn't sharp enough at 9 feet from the 93" screen. 42" isn't "home theater" to me. 93" (at 10 feet or so) is like a "small" theater. 42" is a TV, IMO.

 

[kodek]

Seriously. Most of us don't care. Take it to a different thread, please.

 

[janstett]

Im not saying the AppleTV 2 is useless for everyone, for many of the dumb masses who are locked into iTunes already its probably the best thing since sliced bread, and really its only advantage is a cheap price and movie rentals, in glorious 720P, but if I want to feed my 42" 1080p plasma with subpar 720P video I could use the xbox or PS3 sitting under the TV, which I also dont bother with. For audiophiles or moviephiles it doesn't cut it.

I used to work in the streaming media industry from 2002-2009. Among other things, I did some work on the Netgear MP-101 which sold fairly well. We always got the latest gear for competitive analysis, including Sonos systems and other high-end solutions costing thousands of dollars.

Strictly IMO, proprietary, expensive closed ecosystems such as Sonos (and there are/were worse) are a dead end and naturally once you've bought into it you have a vested interest in its survival. The same thing can be accomplished, more cheaply, with products from mixed vendors supporting an open system like UPnP/DLNA.

The exception is Apple -- while their solution is proprietary and the ecosystem is largely closed, it is a massive closed ecosystem (Macs, iDevices) and Apple keeps the "dumb rendering points" such as the Airport Express and ATV2, cheap. My company tried several times to open doors with Apple, to be their gateway into the UPnP/DLNA world. Apple's only interested in what benefits Apple -- i.e. how does supporting UPnP/DLNA help Apple sell hardware? So Apple will always be a closed ecosystem but it's a very very diverse and healthy one.

Sonos is dead, they just don't know it yet. When you can get something that does 90% of what it does for 10% of the price, you're dead.

 

[Nomadski]

Sonos is far from dead, been alive and kicking in my house since 2006, and will do so far beyond whenever AppleTV5 gets discontinued I'm sure... The market will always have a space for alternatives to Apple, especially when something as hated (by a large number of people) as iTunes is integral to the system. There is nothing more closed and proprietary than Apples system, and save for a couple of lovely products Ive bought into (macbook and iphone) its something I refuse to invest any further in. Sonos delivers without giving any bellyaches or limitations that require workarounds, and their service has just got more expansive with time without cutting any hardware out of the loop, even that released in 2005 - With Apple you'd be lucky for something release 2 years ago to be fully supported with latest features.

And Magnus, I dont have to muck about with any router settings like channels because it gets plugged in and works, I dont NEED to know much about networking because it just works. It doesnt share ANY bandwidth with my wireless network so I have no idea why your banging on about your router. Never experienced interference / breakup in sound / loss of sync whatever else is happening on my network, because its totally independant, and the system is designed to avoid precisely the crappy problems products like AppleTV can easily suffer from. A quick google tells me its NOT the same on AppleTV, lots of forum posts talking about echoes and out of sync music distribution so you can stick that one where the sun dont shine.

Also my "blind test" with lossless vs lossy very clearly showed a difference in sound quality, hence why I dont touch iTunes catalogue of music with a bargepole. You seem to know that the speaker setup make a massive difference to sound (something I have to explain to people everyday regarding quality of headphones vs choice of mp3 player, in that the latter makes FA difference in comparison to the former) so Im surprised you take such little stock in lossless - a better sound system will only exemplify the difference in quality between FLAC (or ALAC) and the highest bitrate MP3.

BTW you can play FLAC on iPhone...sounds lovely, although I agree capacity is an issue at the moment.

"Apple TV 1 came with 120GB and 320GB drives and can use any 2.5 drive. It can also use any external USB2 drive (including a 3TB drive) once hacked"

Great. We are talking about AppleTV2, the latest and greatest. They took it out. You have no hard drive. To do all the stuff you go on about you need XBMC running, presumably on a PC or Mac? Or are you also using workarounds on the Apple hardware to make it as useful as the popcorn is out of the box? Couldnt be bothered myself with all the hassle, ive been using my PH for 4 years with all the functionality you have had for the last few months after mucking about with it. I would bet the majority of the great unwashed masses who bought AppleTV 2 don't use XBMC on it, so stop even comparing your modified unit with the masses experience with it.

How is that? You kept touting it doesn't need a networked PC and now you're touting that it can work with one It doesnt NEED to use a pc, but it CAN if I WANT it to. It doesnt NEED a NAS but it CAN if I want it to. It doesnt have to use internet streaming services like Napster or spotify or Last.FM but it can if I want it to. It doesnt NEED iTunes but it CAN use it if I wanted to use iTunes. I dont HAVE to use FLAC, I can use ALAC if I want. Its called choice, out of the box, zero configuration.

My experience of itunes purely with my one IOS device (iPhone) tells me you can go ahead with this BS system, but I for one much prefer having something which offers alternatives as well as crappy iTunes.

And for one who calls BS on audiophile equipment, you certainly have invested a lot into that BS. Your BS system is quite impressive, shame you skimped on the delivery system.

Re the video, if you cant tell the difference between 1080P vs 720P even on a 42" (Panasonic plasma here too) then you need your eyes testing. My wife has bad eyesight and even she sees the difference between 1080P vs 720P, whereas she just thinks 720P looks "brighter" than standard def...

But whatever, keep on rolling, im still far happier ive got the best multi room music delivery system money can buy. And a separate video player which streams and stores anything without BS conversion / tweaks.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

There's such a thing as 'audiophile' (i.e. akin to fanboy, IMO) and HiFi (i.e. REAL improvements). I believe in the latter and put my money THERE, not magic tricks. And again, there is no shame or 'BS' about my delivery system. What is a shame is that you feel the need to blast something you don't seem to have even tried. There is no limitations with audio an iTunes that I can see. Other than FLAC or Orbis (I don't need either), what's missing? It does MP3, AAC and Apple Lossless.

As for 720p, I could go into scalers and why 720p looks bad on many cheap-o 1080p sets (same reason any resolution less than native looks bad on monitors that don't have high quality scalers; my $600 LG 24" looks GREAT at all resolutions. My $300 LG 24" looks like blurry crap at anything other than native. Look into it. It's why you think 720p sucks. Look up eye resolving distance and you'll see everything I said is 100% true. Watching 1080p on a 42" set is POINTLESS at more than 6 feet or so. You cannot see more than 720p at that distance on that size set, PERIOD. That's not my opinion. It's SCIENCE. And no I don't have to play with 'channels' on my router. I don't know WTF you get these odd ideas from. I just select either 2.4 or 5.0 GHz and it goes without a hitch.

Anyway, have fun with your system. I don't feel like sitting here putting it down just for the heck of it. I wouldn't touch Sonos with a 10 foot pole, personally (obscenely overpriced for what you get, IMO...a lot like Bose really). But if you enjoy it, that's all that matters.

 

[JAT]

You guys are forgetting the most important fact. "Sonos" sounds much cooler than "Airplay".

 

[janstett]

Sonos is far from dead, been alive and kicking in my house since 2006, and will do so far beyond whenever AppleTV5 gets discontinued I'm sure... The market will always have a space for alternatives to Apple, especially when something as hated (by a large number of people) as iTunes is integral to the system. There is nothing more closed and proprietary than Apples system, and save for a couple of lovely products Ive bought into (macbook and iphone) its something I refuse to invest any further in.

There's an old saying I remember from the old mainframe people (system/390, etc.) -- a closed system that is wildly popular doesn't matter if it's closed anymore. In other words, Apple's ecosystem is so popular and rich that it doesn't matter whether it's open or not. The fact that it's a defacto standard (or is on its way to becoming one) is more important.

Not to mention, it's not like Sonos is open. Sonos is caught in the world of its own proprietary, small, and expensive ecosystem. They have to continually spend money on it to adapt new features to their proprietary system (instead of just supporting truly open standards) and that costs money, i.e. an engineering expense and a staff.

I reiterate, they're dead, they just don't know it yet. And in their office walls, they probably do know it.

When I worked for the company making streaming devices, we didn't fear Sonos or any of their ilk, because they were happy not being mass market and bilking their customers for overpriced proprietary equipment -- not the market we were going for, and Sonos was not even close to being the biggest offender. There are some companies that make embedded devices intended for new home construction that are far worse.