Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Then exactly how is doing this any different from what I asked in my first reply to you? You know - the one where I almost grasped the concept.

Backing up core components to iCloud so it's secure would require less than 5GB os storage (free). Backing files up to any other target already exists either in iCloud or to several other providers - several I listed for you.

So, what is the argument? Apple is anticompetitive because iCloud backup is paid? Not under this scenario you laid out. You even agreed that core services need to be secure so iCloud only. And, yes, Google does the same with Android and backups to a Google Account.
That's not how iCloud works today though. If you run out of iCloud space your phone will stop backing up to it. There's no option to tell Apple to just backup core software on iCloud and to retrieve your other data from a different cloud provider. You'd have to go through the significant workaround of installing from an old iCloud backup from when you still had space (if a backup even exists in the first place), then go and then manually retrieve the up to date data backed up from another source. If you didn't even have a backup because of no storage, you now have to start from scratch and go through all your settings as well. Of course Apple has so kindly provided a simple to use backup system (for a fee) that they have also conveniently kept competition from being able to use in any way.

I also didn't agree to anything regarding security. I simply said that if security is truly an unworkable issue with storing complete backups on a different cloud service, then this is one possible work around. It may very well be that maintaining security while using other cloud services for full backups is entirely solvable.
 
Every device manufacturer either caves to making an Android phone, or there's Apple.

I'd say the onus is also on those manufacturers that are not creating competitive solutions of their own. They're happy to pay less to use Android. Apple is a self contained eco-system that has built it up with good hardware too.

No different to Macs and PCs before them.
 
Think outside of the box just a little bit.
What is your background? Are you an operating systems security software developer? It is easy to make statements without having to do the work.
Apple could do something like pull core software from their own servers
It is not just about the “core software”, but a million settings, profiles and other secure items.
and then photos,
It is trivial to back up photos to other services (Google Photos and Dropbox both provide options, there may be others, I do not know).
DRM free music can be easily backed up.
and other data (ya know, the bulk of the data on the device that necessitates the purchase of cloud storage plans in the first place) from wherever the user has chosen to backup their device.
Every application can use the storage manager and back up its data to any of the supported clouds. This is already possible. Everything that is not secure (most application data that the application does not specifically protect) can easily be transferred to any supported service.

The problem is that secure data, like saved games and high scores can be blocked by other apps. The other problem is that every time one has to another interface to a system, one opens another vector of attack.

Since you will not be doing the work to make this happen, it is easy for you to say it is easy to do. The more the open and complex one makes a system, the chance for errors.

I am fairly sure those on your side of this issue would be the first to scream if one of these errors resulted in either a data breech or a corrupted back up.
 
I can certainly think of some examples about how these duopolies have pushed prices up.

iPhone 4 launch price: £499.
iPhone X launch price: £999.

Samsung S5 launch price: £600
Samsung S8 launch price: £689
Samsung S10 onwards (pretty much) launch price: £799.

Now let's look at apps.

Tweetbot 2: $13.99.
Tweetbot 6: $0.99/mo (or $6 a year). After 1 or 2 years, you're paying more.

And then there's the whole IAP nonsense, which needs to DIAF. Many companies chose to charge more, purely because of Apple's cut, in the iOS store, and weren't allowed to direct people to cheaper alternatives. The net result of that is people paying more for the same service.
Original iPhone: $599 (later dropping to $399)
2016/2020 iPhone SE: $399

Original iPad: $499
2020 iPad: $329

I’m not taking inflation into account, or the fact that the newer models are much more advanced in performance.

As for software, can you name any software available prior to the App Store that sold for .99? Apple leveraged their scale to offer a wider audience for developers and a lower price of software to consumers.

And Apple doesn’t charge consumers for each new OS version. You might take this for granted, but you should understand the tremendous amount of resources that go into each new OS — this benefits both the consumer and the developer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lategamer
That's not how iCloud works today though. If you run out of iCloud space your phone will stop backing up to it. There's no option to tell Apple to just backup core software on iCloud and to retrieve your other data from a different cloud provider. You'd have to go through the significant workaround of installing from an old iCloud backup from when you still had space (if a backup even exists in the first place), then go and then manually retrieve the up to date data backed up from another source. If you didn't even have a backup because of no storage, you now have to start from scratch and go through all your settings as well. Of course Apple has so kindly provided a simple to use backup system (for a fee) that they have also conveniently kept competition from being able to use in any way.

I also didn't agree to anything regarding security. I simply said that if security is truly an unworkable issue with storing complete backups on a different cloud service, then this is one possible work around. It may very well be that maintaining security while using other cloud services for full backups is entirely solvable.
Trying to split up the core data between Apple and other providers is just asking for people to have problems. Remember... "It just works" and once you throw in government regulations to make them do things that are not ideal to OS design you have just created a problem.

How about if the regulations force Apple to allow other companies to make an App Store alternative on their devices? Is that something you would support?

There is already differentiation on the Android side with companies such as Samsung using a lot of their own services. If iOS and Android need to be regulated then doesn't Windows and MacOS need the same regulation because they are a duopoly in PC OSs?
 
What Apple hardware has fallen in price? I’m not trying to be clever I just can’t think of significant price reductions from Apple.
Good question.

Original iPhone: $599 (later dropping to $399)
2016/2020 iPhone SE: $399

Original iPad: $499
2020 iPad: $329

1998 iMac: $1299 (or $2000 accounting for inflation)
2021 iMac: $1299

Original MacBook Air: $1899
2020 MacBook Air: $999
 
That's not how iCloud works today though. If you run out of iCloud space your phone will stop backing up to it. There's no option to tell Apple to just backup core software on iCloud and to retrieve your other data from a different cloud provider. You'd have to go through the significant workaround of installing from an old iCloud backup from when you still had space (if a backup even exists in the first place), then go and then manually retrieve the up to date data backed up from another source. If you didn't even have a backup because of no storage, you now have to start from scratch and go through all your settings as well. Of course Apple has so kindly provided a simple to use backup system (for a fee) that they have also conveniently kept competition from being able to use in any way.

I also didn't agree to anything regarding security. I simply said that if security is truly an unworkable issue with storing complete backups on a different cloud service, then this is one possible work around. It may very well be that maintaining security while using other cloud services for full backups is entirely solvable.
I am well aware that iCloud does not do that today. I am also not advocating for that. I was merely asking how your theoretical was any different to my possible ability to save non-is / non-secure data to a non-iCloud target.

Maybe I am just old but I never restore from a backup unless I am just bored and rebuilding my device (same device and last night’s backup). If I am doing any other restore activity - phone upgrade or beta update or anything - I alway set up a new. System Settings don’t always translate cleanly. Sometimes legacy setting conflict with current advice. Files are either in iCloud Drive or OneDrive so they just appear after I go through the initial configuration.
 
LOL. Duopoly investigation now? Why now? Why not 5 years ago? It feels that there's a different agenda if investigations just happened now.

I do wish proper and useful results coming out from these "investigations." For example, Google forces OEMs to preinstall many Google Apps if they want their Android handsets to be Google certified. Also, Apple tied too many of their first party apps into OS upgrades, forcing users to upgrade their phone to get latest version of the app (eg. Safari).

But I doubt those were the issues. I feel that governments are realizing that smartphones is an excellent tool to track people. Covid is an excellent showcase. But then Apple (and also Google) are increasing privacy features. Maybe they didn't like it and wanted some holes to be opened or remain for themselves, and using these excuse of competition as a Trojan horse. I have yet seen any government in any countries that can maintain proper security for the citizens' data. I have no trust in them intruding into the most personal tech of today.
 
What is your background? Are you an operating systems security software developer? It is easy to make statements without having to do the work.

It is not just about the “core software”, but a million settings, profiles and other secure items.

It is trivial to back up photos to other services (Google Photos and Dropbox both provide options, there may be others, I do not know).

DRM free music can be easily backed up.

Every application can use the storage manager and back up its data to any of the supported clouds. This is already possible. Everything that is not secure (most application data that the application does not specifically protect) can easily be transferred to any supported service.

The problem is that secure data, like saved games and high scores can be blocked by other apps. The other problem is that every time one has to another interface to a system, one opens another vector of attack.

Since you will not be doing the work to make this happen, it is easy for you to say it is easy to do. The more the open and complex one makes a system, the chance for errors.

I am fairly sure those on your side of this issue would be the first to scream if one of these errors resulted in either a data breech or a corrupted back up.
I never claimed it would be "easy." I simply think solutions are possible. You're the one framing the issues as completely intractable, which they most likely are not. And lest we forget, at the end of the day cloud storage is but one scenario in which Apple sets up hurdles to their customers using competing services. And I think it's obvious to anyone without blinders on why Apple wants to make it hard or impossible for others to compete with their services, not by necessarily being better (though their services are generally great, I fully recognize that), but by not allowing for the competition to compete in the first place.

It's because:


Apple's services bring in over $60 billion and climbing per year and makes up about 20% of their revenue. Apple's services alone would be the equivalent of a mid-tier Fortune 100 company. They absolutely have an extremely substantial interest in designing their software and ecosystem so that consumers have as hard of a time as possible (even going as far making it impossible in certain instances) to use competitive services. This is why it's laughable when people pretend that it all comes from a place of altruism and that Apple does everything they do with their services in the name of privacy and security. I have no doubt that plays a role and believe Apple is honest when they say the care about their users' security. However, they also have huge negative incentives to design their software and ecosystem in a way that would maintain security while simultaneously allowing competitors to come in and compete with them. You claim it's because it's too hard or not possible to do both, while completely ignoring that in reality Apple makes a lot of money by maintaining the status quo.
 
LOL. Duopoly investigation now? Why now? Why not 5 years ago? It feels that there's a different agenda if investigations just happened now.

I do wish proper and useful results coming out from these "investigations." For example, Google forces OEMs to preinstall many Google Apps if they want their Android handsets to be Google certified. Also, Apple tied too many of their first party apps into OS upgrades, forcing users to upgrade their phone to get latest version of the app (eg. Safari).

But I doubt those were the issues. I feel that governments are realizing that smartphones is an excellent tool to track people. Covid is an excellent showcase. But then Apple (and also Google) are increasing privacy features. Maybe they didn't like it and wanted some holes to be opened or remain for themselves, and using these excuse of competition as a Trojan horse. I have yet seen any government in any countries that can maintain proper security for the citizens' data. I have no trust in them intruding into the most personal tech of today.
Agreed. I would prefer to keep the government out of it. Give them some control over OS design and development and they will only want more. I know a "back door" has been their dream for a long time. If they can regulate how the OS and it's services are to function in order to so called "level the playing field" how long until they take the next step?
 
Trying to split up the core data between Apple and other providers is just asking for people to have problems. Remember... "It just works" and once you throw in government regulations to make them do things that are not ideal to OS design you have just created a problem.

How about if the regulations force Apple to allow other companies to make an App Store alternative on their devices? Is that something you would support?

There is already differentiation on the Android side with companies such as Samsung using a lot of their own services. If iOS and Android need to be regulated then doesn't Windows and MacOS need the same regulation because they are a duopoly in PC OSs?
I don't care what mechanism is created, but there should be a way for users to get software on their phone outside of the app store. Just like on MacOS. And what issues are MacOS and/or Windows currently causing with regard to anti-competitiveness? I think all you've got in this regard is a false equivalency.
 
I don't care what mechanism is created, but there should be a way for users to get software on their phone outside of the app store. Just like on MacOS. And what issues are MacOS and/or Windows currently causing with regard to anti-competitiveness? I think all you've got in this regard is a false equivalency.
If you want to get software on your phone outside of an app store you can already do it if you sideload on Android. With that said, I only download apps through the Play Store on my Android phone because it is safer. There have been many security issues with going other places for software and even though it's possible Google discourages it through default settings and warnings.

The App Store is one big selling point when it comes to Apple marketing security and safety of their system. Open that up and this is gone. If you are upset with the profits Apple or even Google is making running their app stores get an Android phone and sideload apps. I don't recommend it, but there is that.
 
It's time they were reined in. Apple has a "manual boost" option to send chosen apps up the chart. It needs to be a level playing field where they don't get to choose the winners and losers. Rival app stores would be great and ensure that we continue to get free apps without subscriptions.
 
If you want to get software on your phone outside of an app store you can already do it if you sideload on Android. With that said, I only download apps through the Play Store on my Android phone because it is safer. There have been many security issues with going other places for software and even though it's possible Google discourages it through default settings and warnings.

The App Store is one big selling point when it comes to Apple marketing security and safety of their system. Open that up and this is gone. If you are upset with the profits Apple or even Google is making running their app stores get an Android phone and sideload apps. I don't recommend it, but there is that.
I shouldn’t need to go to Android to download apps outside of the system’s official App Store. Just like I don’t have to go to Windows to download software outside of the Mac App Store.
 
I shouldn’t need to go to Android to download apps outside of the system’s official App Store. Just like I don’t have to go to Windows to download software outside of the Mac App Store.
But you do and Apple is committed to having the most secure mobile OS so this will not change. Do you not realize that MacOS has a tiny fraction of the userbase of iOS? It's one reason why Microsoft has struggled over the years to keep Windows secure because it is the market share leader in PC OSs. It is the one that gets targeted most of the time because of that. You don't think that iOS would be targeted at a much higher rate then MacOS?

If Apple if forced to open up their software to any company to provide services and allows sideloaded apps what makes it different then Android? How do consumers know where their data is stored and if it is safe? How does Apple keep dangerous software off of their devices? Doing that would make iOS into Android as far as safety and security goes. Apple in no way could market that as a benefit.

Last we haven't even gotten into iMessage. Apple states that iMessage is one of the biggest reasons people stick with iOS. As an Android user I would love to have iMessage available on my device, but I understand why Apple keeps it to themselves. I do not think the government should force them to open it up. If the government forces things like this and tries to make everything the same innovation loses in the end.
 
But you do and Apple is committed to having the most secure mobile OS so this will not change. Do you not realize that MacOS has a tiny fraction of the userbase of iOS? It's one reason why Microsoft has struggled over the years to keep Windows secure because it is the market share leader in PC OSs. It is the one that gets targeted most of the time because of that. You don't think that iOS would be targeted at a much higher rate then MacOS?

If Apple if forced to open up their software to any company to provide services and allows sideloaded apps what makes it different then Android? How do consumers know where their data is stored and if it is safe? How does Apple keep dangerous software off of their devices? Doing that would make iOS into Android as far as safety and security goes. Apple in no way could market that as a benefit.

Last we haven't even gotten into iMessage. Apple states that iMessage is one of the biggest reasons people stick with iOS. As an Android user I would love to have iMessage available on my device, but I understand why Apple keeps it to themselves. I do not think the government should force them to open it up. If the government forces things like this and tries to make everything the same innovation loses in the end.
Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Let’s stop treating adults like children. The consumer should be responsible for their own data and if they’re not, that’s they’re problem. Why does opening up iOS make it more like Android rather than more like MacOS? How does Apple handle malware on MacOS? Are you saying MacOS isn’t secure? I thought Apple cared about customer security?
 
Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Let’s stop treating adults like children. The consumer should be responsible for their own data and if they’re not, that’s they’re problem. Why does opening up iOS make it more like Android rather than more like MacOS? How does Apple handle malware on MacOS? Are you saying MacOS isn’t secure? I thought Apple cared about customer security?
I assume you are an iPhone user. I also assume you chose it because of it's privacy and security. You probably also chose it for exclusive software features.

MacOS has had many more issues with malware vs iOS.


That list is just for 2020. Also MacOS has a much smaller userbase versus iOS and Windows. I won't post the Windows list, but it's long. Have you done a search for Android? I bet the numbers would surprise you and it's why I don't go outside of the Play Store.

iOS is extremely safe and secure because of Apple's walled garden. I extremely doubt you'd move to a more unsecure product so I don't know why you want iOS less secure. Doing what you want would do exactly that. You cannot open anything up and expect the same level of security. You talk about personal responsibility, but that is already available in Android today. You can tinker around and do what ever you want to your heart's content. Is the idea you just want an "open phone" with an Apple logo?

I hope Apple and Google push back hard against this. Government bureaucrats and politicians have no business controlling how our devices operate. There is already plenty of choice in the mobile market if you don't like how your iPhone operates. The walled garden is a selling point for iPhones. Take that away Apple might as well install Android.
 
I assume you are an iPhone user. I also assume you chose it because of it's privacy and security. You probably also chose it for exclusive software features.

MacOS has had many more issues with malware vs iOS.


That list is just for 2020. Also MacOS has a much smaller userbase versus iOS and Windows. I won't post the Windows list, but it's long. Have you done a search for Android? I bet the numbers would surprise you and it's why I don't go outside of the Play Store.

iOS is extremely safe and secure because of Apple's walled garden. I extremely doubt you'd move to a more unsecure product so I don't know why you want iOS less secure. Doing what you want would do exactly that. You cannot open anything up and expect the same level of security. You talk about personal responsibility, but that is already available in Android today. You can tinker around and do what ever you want to your heart's content. Is the idea you just want an "open phone" with an Apple logo?

I hope Apple and Google push back hard against this. Government bureaucrats and politicians have no business controlling how our devices operate. There is already plenty of choice in the mobile market if you don't like how your iPhone operates. The walled garden is a selling point for iPhones. Take that away Apple might as well install Android.
Malware exists for Mac, yet I’ve never had an issue with it even though I’ve been using Macs for 15 years. Not getting malware on your devices just requires not being stupid.

I also don’t want to move away from Apple, both because the good outweighs the bad and moving away from Apple would require a significant outlay of funds.

Of course that’s another thing regulators are looking at, is ecosystem lock in. It’s very hard and expensive to get out of an ecosystem if you decide you no longer want to be in it. Ecosystems tend to be extremely sticky because once you’re in, it’s not easy or cheap to get out and both Apple and Google know this. Have loads of apps you bought on one ecosystem? Get ready to repurchase them. Have a house full of smart devices? Some of them probably won’t work the same way or as well anymore. Library full of iTunes content? That sucks. Moving to Google (or Apple) usually isn’t as simple as just buying a new phone when you’re due for an upgrade.
 
Malware exists for Mac, yet I’ve never had an issue with it even though I’ve been using Macs for 15 years. Not getting malware on your devices just requires not being stupid.

I also don’t want to move away from Apple, both because the good outweighs the bad and moving away from Apple would require a significant outlay of funds.

Of course that’s another thing regulators are looking at, is ecosystem lock in. It’s very hard and expensive to get out of an ecosystem if you decide you no longer want to be in it. Ecosystems tend to be extremely sticky because once you’re in, it’s not easy or cheap to get out and both Apple and Google know this. Have loads of apps you bought on one ecosystem? Get ready to repurchase them. Have a house full of smart devices? Some of them probably won’t work the same way or as well anymore. Library full of iTunes content? That sucks. Moving to Google (or Apple) usually isn’t as simple as just buying a new phone when you’re due for an upgrade.
So basically you want the government to regulate so everything is the same and/or compatible with each other. This is not the political forum so not getting into politics, but what you are asking for is the opposite of free market capitalism.

Let consumers decide what they want. If a business goes belly up I guess they should have made a better product. Apple and Google figured out what people want. Kudos to them!
 
  • Like
Reactions: visualseed
What's telling is that when you listed OS platforms, you had to list Android twice and include an OS that has a market share of less than two tenths of a percent, amounting to nothing more than a rounding error.
I list the two different Android versions, because, as you said, the control Google exercises over Android is only over its services. Android Open Source Platform allows a manufacturer to support all the Android apps through their own application store (assuming they can get developers to make their applications available through their store), without any of Google’s platform exclusivity conditions.
The technical existence of a truly inconsequential "competitor" does not somehow magically nullify the existence of a duopoly.
The availability of AOSP means that any competitor (or group of competitors) could release phones that supported Android apps without incurring the conditions that Google requires for licensing its tools. Microsoft could produce a branded version of AOSP will all its software in the store (or included by default) without being required to develop a third version of their code. That they do not shows not that Google is anti-competitive, but that they do not believe they can offer enough value or differentiation to make it financially worth it.
lol And talking about hardware manufacturers is completely beside the point, as the methods that Apple and Google use to act in anti-competitive ways is through their software, not hardware. Apple didn't use hardware to disallow game streaming apps, they did it through software and terms and conditions.
There are two different, interrelated markets. One for hardware and one for software. Apple is a major player in both. Google is a major player in software, but a minor player in hardware. Samsung is a major player in hardware, but a minor player in software (they do offer their own application store, and their own competitor to Apple Pay and Google Pay).
I'm not asking for any choice to be eliminated from the market.
Yes you are. You are asking to eliminate the platform choice that a over a billion customers have made because you do not like it. I picked Apple’s ecosystem not Google’s or either of the open source alternatives because I like the safety, security, privacy, convenience and integration choices Apple has made. You want a system that is less private, less convenient, and less integrated, as well as likely less safe and secure.
I want to see limits placed on Apple's and Google's ability to act in anti-competitive ways.
Be specific. What restrictions do you want to see.
Choosing between a fair, competitive environment and security is a false dichotomy.
Again, easy to say, please provide specifics.
I generally enjoy Apple's walled garden approach myself, but innovation slows when the big guys are allowed to further entrench and insulate themselves from competition.
Being forced to define open APIs to break out services does more to slow innovation. It takes years for standards bodies to agree on standards and then even longer to agree on changes to them. Clearly Google and Apple have been able to insulate themselves from competition. That is why the only social networks we have are Google+ and Ping, the only business productivity apps we have are Google Docs and iWork, the only video editor available is Final Cut Pro, Google Home and HomePod are the only smart speakers (and both are bundled in many cars), etc.

That dominance is why Apple Music and YouTube Music control 90% of the music steaming market, while tiny players like Spotify languish and are forced to introduce innovative features like spatial audio and lossless transmission to desperately try to hold on…
With competition, Apple would be forced to charge less for their services or continue to innovate on them to make them worth paying more for than what their competitors offer. Saying that Apple users can go to Google (or vice-versa) completely misses the fact that consumers are then just shuffling between two anti-competitive halves of a duopoly.
Exactly how many players do we need in a market to have the level of competition you want? Three? Four? Five?
 
I list the two different Android versions, because, as you said, the control Google exercises over Android is only over its services. Android Open Source Platform allows a manufacturer to support all the Android apps through their own application store (assuming they can get developers to make their applications available through their store), without any of Google’s platform exclusivity conditions.

The availability of AOSP means that any competitor (or group of competitors) could release phones that supported Android apps without incurring the conditions that Google requires for licensing its tools. Microsoft could produce a branded version of AOSP will all its software in the store (or included by default) without being required to develop a third version of their code. That they do not shows not that Google is anti-competitive, but that they do not believe they can offer enough value or differentiation to make it financially worth it.

There are two different, interrelated markets. One for hardware and one for software. Apple is a major player in both. Google is a major player in software, but a minor player in hardware. Samsung is a major player in hardware, but a minor player in software (they do offer their own application store, and their own competitor to Apple Pay and Google Pay).

Yes you are. You are asking to eliminate the platform choice that a over a billion customers have made because you do not like it. I picked Apple’s ecosystem not Google’s or either of the open source alternatives because I like the safety, security, privacy, convenience and integration choices Apple has made. You want a system that is less private, less convenient, and less integrated, as well as likely less safe and secure.

Be specific. What restrictions do you want to see.

Again, easy to say, please provide specifics.

Being forced to define open APIs to break out services does more to slow innovation. It takes years for standards bodies to agree on standards and then even longer to agree on changes to them. Clearly Google and Apple have been able to insulate themselves from competition. That is why the only social networks we have are Google+ and Ping, the only business productivity apps we have are Google Docs and iWork, the only video editor available is Final Cut Pro, Google Home and HomePod are the only smart speakers (and both are bundled in many cars), etc.

That dominance is why Apple Music and YouTube Music control 90% of the music steaming market, while tiny players like Spotify languish and are forced to introduce innovative features like spatial audio and lossless transmission to desperately try to hold on…

Exactly how many players do we need in a market to have the level of competition you want? Three? Four? Five?
Pure f**king gold this 👍🏻
 
  • Like
Reactions: DakotaGuy
I list the two different Android versions, because, as you said, the control Google exercises over Android is only over its services. Android Open Source Platform allows a manufacturer to support all the Android apps through their own application store (assuming they can get developers to make their applications available through their store), without any of Google’s platform exclusivity conditions.

The availability of AOSP means that any competitor (or group of competitors) could release phones that supported Android apps without incurring the conditions that Google requires for licensing its tools. Microsoft could produce a branded version of AOSP will all its software in the store (or included by default) without being required to develop a third version of their code. That they do not shows not that Google is anti-competitive, but that they do not believe they can offer enough value or differentiation to make it financially worth it.

There are two different, interrelated markets. One for hardware and one for software. Apple is a major player in both. Google is a major player in software, but a minor player in hardware. Samsung is a major player in hardware, but a minor player in software (they do offer their own application store, and their own competitor to Apple Pay and Google Pay).

Yes you are. You are asking to eliminate the platform choice that a over a billion customers have made because you do not like it. I picked Apple’s ecosystem not Google’s or either of the open source alternatives because I like the safety, security, privacy, convenience and integration choices Apple has made. You want a system that is less private, less convenient, and less integrated, as well as likely less safe and secure.

Be specific. What restrictions do you want to see.

Again, easy to say, please provide specifics.

Being forced to define open APIs to break out services does more to slow innovation. It takes years for standards bodies to agree on standards and then even longer to agree on changes to them. Clearly Google and Apple have been able to insulate themselves from competition. That is why the only social networks we have are Google+ and Ping, the only business productivity apps we have are Google Docs and iWork, the only video editor available is Final Cut Pro, Google Home and HomePod are the only smart speakers (and both are bundled in many cars), etc.

That dominance is why Apple Music and YouTube Music control 90% of the music steaming market, while tiny players like Spotify languish and are forced to introduce innovative features like spatial audio and lossless transmission to desperately try to hold on…

Exactly how many players do we need in a market to have the level of competition you want? Three? Four? Five?
The only thing I would add to your post is... Mic drop.
 
  • Like
Reactions: octoberist3
What almost all politicians do: try to make headlines to garner favorable press, to fill their campaign coffers, to expand on their political power within their party and for themselves. “Big Tech” is in the news so look! we pinky swear are ‘doing something about it’. Look! we care about YOU!

Google(Android) and Apple largely won this competition by being better. Who actually doesn’t believe that?
When the market is fresh it’s open to much greater competition. Then what business and consumers choose over a number of years eliminates much of the non performing(sometimes it’s government that gets in the way of that natural progression). Those that are left will become bigger, more entrenched yet usually means progressively better products. These big players can stay in their toes or eventually be smacked by a new and disruptive disruptive way on how it’s done (examples: vcr->dvd, CRTs->Plasmas->LEDs, Blackberry->iPhone, Gm/Ford->Toyota —> on and on). Making the same thing the same way isn’t going to get off the ground once a market has sufficiently matured.

Right now the smartphone market is actually fairly excellent for consumers. In approximately 5 years of competition between Google and Android, the smartphone and new peripherals continue to great elements of health, finance, security, business, leisure, entertainment. Both put out generally amazing devices while at the same time heatedly trying to outdo each other. We consumers won, win and loom to continue winning. But wait! if we just get glib political stage actors involved it’ll be better! Come on, Really?

If you want to see what actual no competition looks like for consumers then look to Microsoft of late 90s/early 2000s. Sometimes good, sometimes not, regardless you’ll take it and like it. They’d swallow competition whole (M&A or just take it and pay the eventual lawsuit), while making those that try something new get wacked. The smartphone market has very little resemblance to those MS dark ages.
 
  • Like
Reactions: octoberist3
I don't care what mechanism is created, but there should be a way for users to get software on their phone outside of the app store. Just like on MacOS. And what issues are MacOS and/or Windows currently causing with regard to anti-competitiveness? I think all you've got in this regard is a false equivalency.
I can already do that in Android. Why should you force Apple to be Android? Aren't this supposed to be about choice?
 
  • Like
Reactions: DakotaGuy
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.