Apple and Google in 'Standoff' With UK Health Service Over COVID-19 Contact Tracing App

[MacRumors]

Apple and Google are said to be in a "standoff" with the UK's health service over its plans to build an app that alerts users when they have been in contact with someone with coronavirus.

Apple and Google announced on Friday that they are working together on Bluetooth technology to help governments and health agencies reduce the spread of the COVID-19 virus around the world.

Apple says that user privacy and security will be central to the design of the project, which will use a decentralized API to prevent governments from building a surveillance-style centralized database of contacts.

However, according to The Guardian, that means if the NHS goes ahead with its original plans, its app would face severe limitations in its operation.

NHSX - the British health service's digital innovation unit - reportedly wasn't aware of Apple and Google's project before it was announced, and it now looks like the usefulness of its own app will be severely hampered or even rendered non-functional if it doesn't implement the protocol.

That's because without adhering to the Apple and Google API, a contact tracing app won't be able to access Bluetooth when it's running in the background, and would only work when the app was open and the phone unlocked.

Similar limitations have been demonstrated in Singapore's contact tracing app, TraceTogether, which requires the user to leave their phone unlocked to work properly. The app has a three-star rating on the App Store and has been installed by just 12 percent of the country's population.

For its part, a spokesperson for NHSX denied claims of a "standoff," telling The Guardian: "This suggestion is completely wrong. Everyone is in agreement that user privacy is paramount, and while our app is not dependent on the changes they are making, we believe they will be helpful and complementary."

Article Link: Apple and Google in 'Standoff' With UK Health Service Over COVID-19 Contact Tracing App

 

[kyjaotkb]

So they built an app that had zero chance of being approved, with always-on BT access a la Tile, and now that Apple announced a framework to actually make it possible, they are... complaining?

 

[SaxPlayer]

So they built an app that had zero chance of being approved, with always-on BT access a la Tile, and now that Apple announced a framework to actually make it possible, they are... complaining?

Please bear in mind that this was printed in a British newspaper therefore the chances of it being accurate are slightly less than 1%.

Basically move along, there’s nothing to see here.

 

[mazz0]

Please bear in mind that this was printed in a British newspaper therefore the chances of it being accurate are slightly less than 1%.

Basically move along, there’s nothing to see here.

We're talking about The Guardian, not some ****y tabloid.

 

[Seanm87]

NHS need to give up on this crappy app. It will be nowhere near good enough compared to what apple and google are doing.

 

[mazz0]

NHS need to give up on this crappy app. It will be nowhere near good enough compared to what apple and google are doing.

Apple and Google are just making an API aren't they? Not an app.

 

[calzon65]

Probably the NHS was not drinking the "trust us to be good gradians" cool aide.

 

[Shanghaichica]

The U.K. have given up on contact tracing and you can’t even get a test unless you are seriously unwell.

 

[nnoble]

So many 'contributors' spouting off here, all opinionated and fully dependant on which side of the bed they got out this morning.
[automerge]1587127635[/automerge]

NHS need to give up on this crappy app. It will be nowhere near good enough compared to what apple and google are doing.

Based on what, if any, evidence?
[automerge]1587127797[/automerge]

NHS need to give up on this crappy app. It will be nowhere near good enough compared to what apple and google are doing.

Based on what, if any, evidence?

The U.K. have given up on contact tracing and you can’t even get a test unless you are seriously unwell.

Evidence?

 

[ani4ani]

Please bear in mind that this was printed in a British newspaper therefore the chances of it being accurate are slightly less than 1%.

Basically move along, there’s nothing to see here.

add in that it is the Gaurdian and you can cut the accuracy chance by another 99%

 

[Unggoy Murderer]

Not this ^^^.

We're talking about The Guardian, not some ****y tabloid.

The Guardian is nothing short of a rag.

I'm pretty sure that Apple and Google will be doing everything they can to assist such development, so the chances of them hindering it for API usage limitations is virtually zero.

It would benefit everyone if The Guardian just disappeared.

 

[Floop]

Evidence?

Err, living in the UK, with a relative who has almost certainly had C19, and having done considerable research into the situation taking information from multiple different sources.

Here in the UK they aren't even regularly testing frontline health workers. People with suspected C19 are directed to stay at home, unless their breathing becomes seriously problematic, by which point the chance survival will have dropped significantly. The UK has managed to test slightly over 200,000 people so far of a population of 60 million. Germany are testing 500,000 people every *week*. And with testing barely available, there hasn't been ANY contact tracing to speak of, because what would be the point.

The UK's response to C19 has been woeful. I take my hat off to the NHS healthcare workers who are taking considerable risks to try and care for seriously ill people, but who are being failed by our government as they haven't even got appropriate PPE (personal protective equipment) which is necessary to keep safe.

Despite this the daily national press briefing claims that there aren't problems with PPE, when there clearly are. Our government are telling lies on a daily basis.

 

[nylonsteel]

uh - contact tracing has 2 sides
first is probably helpful for disease control effort
but creepy due to privacy concerns

 

[randomgeeza]

Err, living in the UK, with a relative who has almost certainly had C19, and having done considerable research into the situation taking information from multiple different sources.

Here in the UK they aren't even regularly testing frontline health workers. People with suspected C19 are directed to stay at home, unless their breathing becomes seriously problematic, by which point the chance survival will have dropped significantly. The UK has managed to test slightly over 200,000 people so far of a population of 60 million. Germany are testing 500,000 people every *week*. And with testing barely available, there hasn't been ANY contact tracing to speak of, because what would be the point.

The UK's response to C19 has been woeful. I take my hat off to the NHS healthcare workers who are taking considerable risks to try and care for seriously ill people, but who are being failed by our government as they haven't even got appropriate PPE (personal protective equipment) which is necessary to keep safe.

Despite this the daily national press briefing claims that there aren't problems with PPE, when there clearly are. Our government are telling lies on a daily basis.

^^^^^ THIS!

It is egregiously embarrassing how shambolic it has been here. They wanted herd immunity at the cost of the elderly until Imperial College provided them with the numbers. Then they [Tories] s**t a brick and followed what the rest of the world were doing. By which time it was too late. And it continues to chase the disease.

 

[mazz0]

The Guardian is nothing short of a rag.

I'm pretty sure that Apple and Google will be doing everything they can to assist such development, so the chances of them hindering it for API usage limitations is virtually zero.

It would benefit everyone if The Guardian just disappeared.

Ah, you're one of those.

the chances of them hindering it for API usage limitations is virtually zero.

Chances? This is the real world - if you think their facts are incorrect then tell us the right ones. What is Apple's policy regarding apps that collect data for a centralised database of contacts?

 

[videosoul]

Please bear in mind that this was printed in a British newspaper therefore the chances of it being accurate are slightly less than 1%.

Basically move along, there’s nothing to see here.

Err.... The Guardian is probably one of the most reliable and respected British newspapers with a strong history scrutinising and accurate investigative journalism.

 

[Unggoy Murderer]

Err, living in the UK, with a relative who has almost certainly had C19, and having done considerable research into the situation taking information from multiple different sources.

Here in the UK they aren't even regularly testing frontline health workers. People with suspected C19 are directed to stay at home, unless their breathing becomes seriously problematic, by which point the chance survival will have dropped significantly. The UK has managed to test slightly over 200,000 people so far of a population of 60 million. Germany are testing 500,000 people every *week*. And with testing barely available, there hasn't been ANY contact tracing to speak of, because what would be the point.

The UK's response to C19 has been woeful. I take my hat off to the NHS healthcare workers who are taking considerable risks to try and care for seriously ill people, but who are being failed by our government as they haven't even got appropriate PPE (personal protective equipment) which is necessary to keep safe.

Despite this the daily national press briefing claims that there aren't problems with PPE, when there clearly are. Our government are telling lies on a daily basis.

I don't think the response could be considered woeful at all - they're doing what they said they would do to the letter. Delay the infections as far as possible, and spread the load on our NHS over a longer period. Last time I checked, the NHS is doing totally fine. Also, your research is out of date, UK has completed just under 400k tests, with Germany having a total of 1.7m (source).

I have numerous family, friends, and colleagues who work in (or have temporarily returned to) the NHS, and every single one of them have said that they have so much PPE that they don't know what to do with it. My dad's a medical practice manager, he's turning it away because they don't have the physical space to store any more.

I'm not saying that this is the story everywhere, but the whole PPE thing is being blown completely out of proportion. Number one for putting weight behind that is the BBC. There was an interview with two nurses (on live TV) where they were asked about the PPE "issue" and they said it was all fine - much to the dismay of the BBC presenter.

The only people telling lies around this whole pandemic is the press, and when we eventually get over this dreadful situation - hopefully we'll be able to hold them accountable for the considerable amount of needless panic.

 

[Unggoy Murderer]

Ah, you're one of those.

Chances? This is the real world - if you think their facts are incorrect then tell us the right ones. What is Apple's policy regarding apps that collect data for a centralised database of contacts?

Please do elaborate on what you mean by "one of those"?

I'll be very confident in saying that Apple will forbid such apps under normal circumstances. However, as we're not under normal circumstances, I'll bet that they'll figure out something together.

Additionally, regarding your comment "if you think their facts are incorrect" - please tell me where these facts are stated? If you look at the article from The Guardian, you'll see no named (or unnamed) sources at all. In fact, the article (in contradiction to its headline) says "a spokesperson for NHSX – the the health service’s digital transformation arm – denied claims of a “standoff”" - so who do you believe?

I don't have any facts at all, I'm just basing it on the probability that The Guardian is telling porkies again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[TechieGeek]

uh - contact tracing has 2 sides
first is probably helpful for disease control effort
but creepy due to privacy concerns

Can you read the proposed design and then explain what privacy concerns you have and how you would mitigate them as Apple/Google?

tl;dr for you https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/11/...ronavirus-tracking-app-covid-bluetooth-secure

 

[Puppuccino]

Coronavirus will be an on-going issue in the UK for many months to come. With no vaccine for 12 to 18 months (and thats if all goes well and one is approved) nothing will go back to normal yet.

People are saying by May we’ll be over it all but without a proper plan that’s airtight that’s just not going to happen. We’ll be feeling the effects of this for a long while. Nothing will be the same as before until possibly 2022.

 

[one more]

For those of you not into The Guardian, here is the BBC side of the story:

Coronavirus: NHS contact tracing app to target 80% of smartphone users

A vast majority of smartphone owners must install the app, if it is to end the coronavirus epidemic.

www.bbc.com

 

[Vjosullivan]

Err.... The Guardian is probably one of the most reliable and respected British newspapers with a strong history scrutinising and accurate investigative journalism.

For many people, that's a real problem.

 

[Shanghaichica]

So many 'contributors' spouting off here, all opinionated and fully dependant on which side of the bed they got out this morning.
[automerge]1587127635[/automerge]

Based on what, if any, evidence?
[automerge]1587127797[/automerge]

Based on what, if any, evidence?

Evidence?

Based on the fact that I have been unwell for 4 weeks and they are refusing to give me a test. I have to be gasping for air. If not they don’t want to know.

 

[Floop]

I don't think the response could be considered woeful at all - they're doing what they said they would do to the letter. Delay the infections as far as possible, and spread the load on our NHS over a longer period.

The UK government promised in mid-March to rapidly increase the number of tests being carried out - sounds good doesn't it - but when you look at the actual promise, they said they wanted to achieve 25,000 tests per day by mid-April.

Well, mid-April was a few days ago and they haven't achieved 25,000 tests per day on ANY day yet. Yesterday they managed 21,328.

Meanwhile Germany is conducting well over 50,000 tests per day, and at points has managed over 100,000 tests per day. source

The UK government initially claimed in early March that rather than attempt to contain the virus, they would adopt a herd immunity strategy. This was completely at odds from advice from the World Health Organisation which stated that containment and testing were absolutely vital. A week later, the UK government discovered that their strategy was utterly flawed, because the science it was based on was using infection rates that were much lower; at which point the UK government did implement containment measures. Even so, we were one of the last countries in Europe to lock down, and even then it's been done in a half-hearted way, i.e. "Stay home! But remember to go out to work! And for exercise!".

Your experience may be different if you are in Scotland, as per your profile. I have relatives in Scotland who believe, as it seems you do, that things are being handled well. From the perspective of a southerner, I could not disagree more.
[automerge]1587133911[/automerge]

Based on the fact that I have been unwell for 4 weeks and they are refusing to give me a test. I have to be gasping for air. If not they don’t want to know.

My brother experienced the same thing. He was extremely unwell for over a fortnight, with all the symptoms. The NHS website and phone line offered nothing, except advising him to stay home. No testing, no contact tracing, nothing.

Meanwhile, our niece in Ireland asked for a test, this was mailed to her, and she got the results in 72 hours.

The UK is doing appallingly, by comparison to other countries in Europe. With perhaps the exception of Sweden.

 

[Shanghaichica]

The UK government promised in mid-March to rapidly increase the number of tests being carried out - sounds good doesn't it - but when you look at the actual promise, they said they wanted to achieve 25,000 tests per day by mid-April.

Well, mid-April was a few days ago and they haven't achieved 25,000 tests per day on ANY day yet. Yesterday they managed 21,328.

Meanwhile Germany is conducting well over 50,000 tests per day, and at points has managed over 100,000 tests per day. source

The UK government initially claimed in early March that rather than attempt to contain the virus, they would adopt a herd immunity strategy. This was completely at odds from advice from the World Health Organisation which stated that containment and testing were absolutely vital. A week later, the UK government discovered that their strategy was utterly flawed, because the science it was based on was using infection rates that were much lower; at which point the UK government did implement containment measures. Even so, we were one of the last countries in Europe to lock down, and even then it's been done in a half-hearted way, i.e. "Stay home! But remember to go out to work! And for exercise!".

Your experience may be different if you are in Scotland, as per your profile. I have relatives in Scotland who believe, as it seems you do, that things are being handled well. From the perspective of a southerner, I could not disagree more.
[automerge]1587133911[/automerge]


My brother experienced the same thing. He was extremely unwell for over a fortnight, with all the symptoms. The NHS website and phone line offered nothing, except advising him to stay home. No testing, no contact tracing, nothing.

Meanwhile, our niece in Ireland asked for a test, this was mailed to her, and she got the results in 72 hours.

The UK is doing appallingly, by comparison to other countries in Europe. With perhaps the exception of Sweden.

I’m not the only one I know of in the same situation as me. They aren’t testing anyone in England unless you are unwell enough to end up in hospital and the threshold is very high for admission. They also keep moving the goal posts which is putting a lot of people at risk. Initially it was stay at home for 7 days and after that you can come out of isolation. Now it’s stay at home until all of your symptoms have gone. I have two colleagues at work who returned after 7 days but still had a cough.