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The only place where I thought it would only cost $1B is in your head.:D Couple of problems with your evidence. 1. It doesn't support your assertion at all. Read past the headline.;) Their market share lost 6.9% but within days recovered the the vast majority of that loss. 2. Your info is horribly dated for stock info. It's from last month. The stock is trading at near the highs at the introduction of the Note 7. Past 3 months. 3. Samsung the company losing money on a product isn't the same thing as Samsung the stock losing money through market share. You can't conflate the two and based on the current market, the Note debacle (and make no mistake, I definitely think it's a debacle) is no more than a blip on the radar... marketwise. As with most things in our tech focused forum life, we're the only ones who care. The rest of the world... not so much. So again, your 10's of billions seems overly optimistic.

Exactly. It was last month and they'd hadn't even sent out the "safe" replacements or pulled it from market yet, you're right, I'm wrong, it's probably worse.
 
For those readers who are intelligent lifeforms, and actually want to know what this appeal is about:

The primary part of this appeal is not about whether Samsung was found to infringe or not.

TL;DR - This is about the calculation of the award for design patents.

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For centuries, one or two design patents pretty much covered an entire product. In 1887, in response to a carpet maker getting a tiny award from a copied rug design patent, Congress passed a law that gave design patents a special bonus:
  • The ability to award all of an infringer's profits to the design patent holder.
And that's what the Koh jury did. They gave Apple all or most of Samsung's profits on certain phones, partly for having an icon grid, flat face and rounded corners. There are other legal questions about them doing that, but...

The BIG question that everyone wants SCOTUS to address, which is whether or not the "entire profits" rule applies to the whole product, or just the parts that infringe.

You see, this is not 100 years with simple products. Today's highly integrated devices such as smartphones use literally thousands of patented items.

Allowing the award to encompass an entire product means that even if, say, Apple used a single patented design element somewhere deep in a control panel, the patent holder could demand ALL of Apple's profits for the entire device.

Worse, it means that EVERY SINGLE design patent holder, large or small, could EACH DEMAND ALL THE PROFITS.

Good God. Taken to extremes, such awards could wipe out Apple and Samsung entirely. Not to mention everyone from the local grocer, to someone making a tiny product with their home savings.

Thus, virtually nobody (except designers, naturally) thinks that this is fair or the true intent of that law. If you think patent trolls are bad now, letting anyone demand an entire device's profits will bring out trolls like nothing ever seen before... while also putting both large and small companies at huge risk.

Even Apple is now backing off (as many here predicted) their original claim that it should apply to an entire device. They know that they themselves will be in grave danger if that concept stands. Instead, they're falling back on legal nitpicking to claim that SCOTUS should only look at what Samsung presented in that particular trial as proof of what percentage of their products infringed. But nobody wants just that. They want SCOTUS to make a stand.

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A slightly more detailed explanation of the appeals questions is in one of my previous posts here.

TL;DR #2 - if you're one of those who thinks VirnetX shouldn't get a half billion dollars for a few utility patents, then you'd sure better start backing Samsung's side. Because that's nothing compared to the billions that someone with a tiny design patent could demand and get.


+1 Informative and all that for the background but TL;DR 2 doesn't exactly apply since the VirnetX case is not a design patent and VirnetX is an NPE, AKA a patent troll.
 
+1 Informative and all that for the background but TL;DR 2 doesn't exactly apply since the VirnetX case is not a design patent and VirnetX is an NPE, AKA a patent troll.

Right, that was the entire point:

A utility patent award (which Apple always claims should be based on the smallest part of their smartphone that uses it) is NOTHING compared to being able to demand Apple's ENTIRE profits because of a SINGLE tiny design patent.

(Caps not meant for you, but for casual readers scrolling through.)
 
Right, that was the entire point:

A utility patent award (which Apple always claims should be based on the smallest part of their smartphone that uses it) is NOTHING compared to being able to demand the ENTIRE profits that Apple makes for a SINGLE tiny design patent.

That's clearer and I don't think anyone with an ounce of common sense could disagree. You're right, it can't cut both ways.
 
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Poor samsung....
 

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the rounded corners of its phones, the rim that surrounds the front face and the grid of icons that users view.

"Rounded corners", my gosh what has the world come down to, I agree there are legitimate things Apple can sue for, but some of this is just petty trolling patent nonsense.
 

Specifically, Apple's design patents cover "the rounded corners of its phones, the rim that surrounds the front face and the grid of icons that users view." Last December, a federal court in San Jose ruled in Apple's favor, and Samsung appealed days later in attempts to avoid the $548 million reward payment to Apple. In Samsung's appeal, the company gave the court a metaphor centering around owing a car's entire profits to a rival company for infringing upon their cup holder design.

Article Link: Apple and Samsung's Long-Running Design Lawsuit Heading to Supreme Court This Week
When this case is finally over, Apple can then direct its legal force on Google Pixel.
pixel-2.jpg
 
Snark aside, how is it probably worse? You keep making the claim but, as of yet, haven't provided any substantive evidence to support it.

Maybe I'm speaking out of turn but I think what he's driving at is that this saga is far from over. Samsung still haven't responded to this second round of failures.
 
Maybe I'm speaking out of turn but I think what he's driving at is that this saga is far from over. Samsung still haven't responded to this second round of failures.
Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, no one can come to that conclusion based on the comment below. Even the evidence presented didn't support that. It's pretty obvious they're going to lose money. But to say they've already lost 10's of billions is just reckless hyperbole. $10B is probably slight hyperbole. 10's of billions? o_O


"As I said, don't care what people say. They've already lost tens of billions with all this exploding Note7 fiasco." -SMIDG3T
 
For those readers who are intelligent lifeforms, and actually want to know what this appeal is about:

The primary part of this appeal is not about whether Samsung was found to infringe or not.

TL;DR - This is about the calculation of the award for design patents.

What good is a valid patent if you can't enforce any kind of material judgement upon the infringer?

If it was considered important enough to intentionally infringe by the defendant then the damage must be high, if only to discourage others.
 
Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, no one can come to that conclusion based on the comment below. Even the evidence presented didn't support that. It's pretty obvious they're going to lose money. But to say they've already lost 10's of billions is just reckless hyperbole. $10B is probably slight hyperbole. 10's of billions? o_O


"As I said, don't care what people say. They've already lost tens of billions with all this exploding Note7 fiasco." -SMIDG3T

The final tally has yet to be, um, tallied. That's true. I'm not even sure it's possible to get an accurate number, even a year from now.

It's gonna be a sore one though, that much is certain. I don't even think it's so much the damage from (lack of) sales of Note - it seems to be a low volume unit - but the damage to the "Galaxy" brand.
 
This has drawn on a long time, but I'm very excited to see how the arguments of Samsung and Apple and how this finally progresses through the Supreme Court. This will make for a very interesting decision of the court.
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You can't patent "the look and feel" of a device, according to Samsung.

Well, they tried their damnedest to get the look. Shame they couldn't get the same user experience.

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Haha, I love this post, it really sums it up nicely :)
 
Round edges and an icon grid are considered inventions now?
I guess I would agree with pinch to zoom, but the rest is pretty much BS.

I feel like this conversation was played out 5 years ago. It's about the totality of the thing. In isolation no one or two parts seem as important but when an Internal Samsung paper looks like this


Put it in context here. In 2016 there's most definitely "inspiration" flowing in both directions and Samsung have managed to somewhat find their own identity but in 2010/2011 Samsung were just point by point photocopying. Anyone who read this at the time and is full possession of their marble collection could hardly deny it (though I have a feeling you will anyway)

http://allthingsd.com/20120807/sams...uld-be-better-if-it-were-more-like-the-iphone

You're dealing with something altogether different. Wholesale copy and paste.
 
500 million, pocket change for both company, but the patent lawyers are probably making 100-150 millions from these two company's squabbling.
 
The dispute over the "slide to unlock" patent is especially ironic right now as Apple just stopped using it in iOS. :)[/QUOTE
yea crazy to think slide to unlock was a feature at one point but it was!
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Really? Who had this first? This was one of the features on the original iPhone that blew me away as I'd never seen anything like it!

(Genuine question - not trolling)

so true to think of that as a "feature" now was definitely blown away and maps! pinch to zoom most definitely. and now a days its as like nothing . we dont even think about it anymore its just normal.
 
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What good is a valid patent if you can't enforce any kind of material judgement upon the infringer?

Good question. Nobody wants to remove normal patent awards as they existed before Congress helped out some business friends a hundred years ago. Both utility and design patents always have the same basic awards available:
  • At the least, an award based on what a reasonable royalty would be, and then enhanced depending on whether infringement continues and/or was intentional.
  • Or an award of their lost profits attributed to the infringement. (Very difficult to prove in a smartphone made up of thousands of patents.)
If it was considered important enough to intentionally infringe by the defendant then the damage must be high, if only to discourage others.

Sure, and thus judges are able to triple awards if an infringement was intentional. (Which doesn't apply to this case, btw.)

Nobody wants to take away any of that. What they want is to make sure that a single design patent holder cannot request the ENTIRE profits for a product, be it a phone or a fast food restaurant who accidentally uses a patented image in their store, for a design patent that is only a tiny PIECE of the entire product.

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For example, let's pretend that Swiss Railway had recently gotten a design patent on the clock face that Apple used in iOS. Do you think that they should be able to demand Apple's entire profits on all the iPhones that contained that image? Or do you think that any award should be first apportioned as to how much that image contributed to sales/the overall product? Common sense dictates the latter, and everyone wants SCOTUS to say so.
 
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Sure, and thus judges are able to triple awards if an infringement was intentional. (Which doesn't apply to this case, btw.)

Really? Samsung didn't intentionally pick over the iphone interface of the era, dissect it piece by piece and copy it? I think that's a major stretch. I won't post the link again, it's a few posts up.
 
The final tally has yet to be, um, tallied. That's true. I'm not even sure it's possible to get an accurate number, even a year from now.
I agree. There will be tons of estimates on the loss and I doubt Samsung will reveal the full picture. That doesn't validate an unsubstantiated claim of 10's of billions.

It's gonna be a sore one though, that much is certain. I don't even think it's so much the damage from (lack of) sales of Note - it seems to be a low volume unit - but the damage to the "Galaxy" brand.
This I doubt. I don't know many people who equate the Note with the overall Galaxy brand. Why would they? Samsung has always had a bad reputation as a Company (in certain circles) and it's never affected them negatively. Through years of accusations of IP theft, bribery, corporate malfeasance, and political chicanery they just keep on keeping on. Consumers tend not to care as much as the media. People still buy Toyota's (gas pedal), VW's (diesel), and GM vehicles (ignition). Peopl really don't care in the real world. Forum people care. We tend to think the tech issues we find important are, well, important. Plus our collective attention span rivals that of a drunken goldfish swimming in a tank of scotch.:) Sammy will probably drop the Note name and concentrate on their S line... and the A line, and the Y line,... They're gonna be okay.
 
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I don't know many people who equate the Note with the overall Galaxy brand. Why would they?
People in places like this forum? Absolutely not. There's several levels of sophistication on this stuff and If I had a penny for every time I've heard something along the lines of...

- "My Galaxy"
- "Do you have an iPhone", "Yes I have a Galaxy"

A level above that there's recognition that it's a "Samsung" and, though I picked "Galaxy" as the term that's tarnished it probably applies equally to the Samsung brand on phones for people who've seen the news and know they or their friends or family have a Samsung

... I'd have, oh, a quarter or so (I'm not prone to exaggeration. A curse on forums ;))

Samsung has always had a bad reputation as a Company
Again, I'd say that really hasn't percolated out of tech circles. "Normal" people seem quite proud of their Samsung or Galaxy and think Samsung/Galaxy is a good guy. (good/bad of course are fairly abstract in the context of a company but lets not disappear down that rabbit hole :))

I mean we can agree to disagree and all but I do think there will be pretty big reputational and, as a result, fiscal damage from this.
 
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