Apple Announces New Mac Studio With M4 Max and M3 Ultra Chips, Thunderbolt 5, and More

[deconstruct60]

Also this release is just weird. M3 Max doesn’t have Thunderbolt 5. M4 is what introduced it. M* ultra is two M* Max connected. So M3 Ultra is not REALLY two M3 Max, since the ultra has Thunderbolt 5. So what other changes are included?

if the M3 Max+ die is bigger then TBv5 could have been added because there is more room and more time (if they did the augment after the deadline for the M3 max rollout).

The PCI-e backhaul provisioning on the M2 Ultra is odd (non-symmetrical and Apple tends to be OCD symmetric) x8 and x16 PCI-e v4. I would expect Apple to 'update' that for the Mac Pro , especially if it is completely saddled with M3 Ultra only as a solution. Dual x8 PCI-e v5 would be a substantive step up. Perhaps tweaks to an symmetric x16/x16/ . if the SoC needs to get bigger than what the MBP 14" logic board would fix for a M3 Max part then perhaps not a problem.

In short, a SoC die building block that was oriented toward desktop I/O ; not laptops. Thunderbolt 5 is still mostly warped into laptop primary focus. They need to get to decent desktop I/O for the Mac Pro to bring value to the table.

P.S. the other variant on TBv5 is that was there on the M3 Max but either broken, incomplete , and/or uncertified. Because this is later it is fixed and/or certified. [ I suspect the die footprint for TBv5 is bigger so I'm leaning toward skipped for space savings. ]

 

[0049190]

Apple do put its customers first.

Here is the pecking order for Apple customers:
1) iPhone buyers;
2) Service (e.g., Apple Music) buyers;
3) MacBook buyers;
4) iPad buyers;
5) Watch buyers;
6) Apple TV buyers;
7) AirPod buyers;
8) AVP buyers (could be bumped up);
9) AirTag buyers;
10) Mac desktop buyers;
11) Home Pod buyers.

So if you're whining about the MacStudio it's because you are low on the list of priorities.

That’s why they will never succeed in the corporate market and still only have 10% market share in computers after 50 years in business. Without the iPhone Apple would be worthless.

 

[MacBird]

Considering all the internal updates, I'm surprised there is still no WiFi 7.

 

[deconstruct60]

Considering all the internal updates, I'm surprised there is still no WiFi 7.

Should not be surprised. The 100% 'all new' M4 powered MBP are just Wi-Fi 6E also. ( Ditto M4 variants of Mini) Apple is highly likely to buy the same part for the Mac whole line to get more economies of scale.

When the MBP move's forward next generation, then the rest will on that iteration.

 

[neotint]

Disappointed there's no M4 Ultra.
Will the Studio hack for user-upgradable SSD still be possible?

 

[museic]

Disappointed there's no M4 Ultra.
Will the Studio hack for user-upgradable SSD still be possible?

I'd wait for teardowns and reports before spending money on either the machine or the upgrade kit if that's a concern. Personally I'm happy with 10GbE connectivity to a NAS.

 

[Ethosik]

M3 having UltraFusion connection or not was just rumors (well we learned today that they do have it and didn't build a M3 Ultra from scratch but indeed combined 2 M3 Max chips) but today Apple confirmed to the press that M4 does not have this UltraFusion thing.

So maybe they'll skip the M4 Ultra and come up with a M4 Extreme for the Mac Pro update ?

This isn't the M3 Max we had from our laptops. M3 did NOT have Thunderbolt 5, but this was added in for the Ultra. So this is a new variant of the M3. So the original M3 Max very well might have not had the connector. Which means theorist9 is correct. Apple can release a variant of the M4 that has this connector.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

I don’t give a damn about their share price or shareholders. If their strategy is putting shareholders before customers they won’t remain the world’s richest company.

Apple's strategy is not putting shareholders before customers. If it was, Apple would not be the worlds richest company.

 

[deconstruct60]

Apple's strategy is not putting shareholders before customers. If it was, Apple would not be the worlds richest company.

Apple pimping out their users for a $20B check from Google somewhat says otherwise. Apple gets that huge check from Google for all the work the customers put into the system and Apple hands how much of that back directly to the customers?

$400/TB SSD capacity prices are 'customer first'?

 

[theorist9]

This isn't the M3 Max we had from our laptops. M3 did NOT have Thunderbolt 5, but this was added in for the Ultra. So this is a new variant of the M3. So the original M3 Max very well might have not had the connector. Which means theorist9 is correct. Apple can release a variant of the M4 that has this connector.

Yes, there is a school of thought that the M3 on the Ultra may differ from that on the M3 Max not only in having TB5 controllers, but also by having an UltraFusion interconnect.

Though (purely speculating) I don't think Apple will release an M4 Ultra since, if that were their intent, I don't believe they would have told arstechnica that "not every generation will see an Ultra chip."

My argument about the M4 was instead about whether the absence of an UltraFusion interconnect from the commercially-released M4 Max (which Apple did confirm) means Apple never intended to develop an M4 Ultra at all. I don't think it means that, since their early M4 Max prototypes could have included a variant with a UF connector specifically intended for the Ultra. I.e., I was looking back rather than forwards.

Interestngly, while they did upgrade the TB controllers, they didn't upgrade the memory controllers. The M3 Ultra has twice the M3 Max's memory bandwidth (suggesting it uses LPDDR5-6400, same as the M3), rather than twice the M4 Max's (which uses LPDDR5X-8533).

 

[Allen_Wentz]

if the M3 Max+ die is bigger then TBv5 could have been added because there is more room and more time (if they did the augment after the deadline for the M3 max rollout).

The PCI-e backhaul provisioning on the M2 Ultra is odd (non-symmetrical and Apple tends to be OCD symmetric) x8 and x16 PCI-e v4. I would expect Apple to 'update' that for the Mac Pro , especially if it is completely saddled with M3 Ultra only as a solution. Dual x8 PCI-e v5 would be a substantive step up. Perhaps tweaks to an symmetric x16/x16/ . if the SoC needs to get bigger than what the MBP 14" logic board would fix for a M3 Max part then perhaps not a problem.

In short, a SoC die building block that was oriented toward desktop I/O ; not laptops. Thunderbolt 5 is still mostly warped into laptop primary focus. They need to get to decent desktop I/O for the Mac Pro to bring value to the table.

P.S. the other variant on TBv5 is that was there on the M3 Max but either broken, incomplete , and/or uncertified. Because this is later it is fixed and/or certified. [ I suspect the die footprint for TBv5 is bigger so I'm leaning toward skipped for space savings. ]

Your commentary is very interesting. The question remains as to where M5 may be going as regards an Ultra or beyond Ultra capability? Also where did the 512 GB available RAM in the M3 Ultra come from? Might Apple go even higher with an M5 Ultra?

Apple allegedly is very committed to AI, and that will require lots of clock cycles, lots of RAM and lots of i/o. IMO another Ultra is likely, but Apple may be being even more aggressive than simple M5 Ultra as they lay out the N3P M5 chips. Who knows how powerful TSMC's SoIC layering may be? Rumors suggest that work on an Extreme has been shelved, but I find it hard to believe that Apple's talented chip designers are not aggressively looking for more.

 

[joecomo]

As astutely pointed out by another user above
You've solved the issue for yourself already!

👇

well I wouldn't like to have an adapter mess on my desk.
Rather using an adapter for the extremely few legacy devices with an USB-A I might have.

 

[holisticrunner]

That’s why they will never succeed in the corporate market and still only have 10% market share in computers after 50 years in business. Without the iPhone Apple would be worthless.

Without intel CPU business, intel is worthless
Without nvidia GPU business, nvidia os worthless

Agreed 👍

 

[mode11]

Well, technically, it is the 3rd "Ultra" chip, even if it is based on M8. So there is that.

That's not how it works. SKUs of Apple Silicon chips are named after their CPU core generation.

It has thunderbolt 5 and the M3 pro didn't.

True, but that's the only difference. And as an IO technology, is literally peripheral.

If they HAD called it M4 Ultra, those same people would be complaining because there was no M3 ultra, even if the new one was based on 'next gen M5 chips.'

Don't make out poor old Apple is in a no-win situation. If they had called an M3-based product an M4 (easily verified with e.g. Geekbench), customers would obviously complain about the deceit. If people complain there is no M4 Ultra, it's because Apple failed to deliver it.

If they were able to deliver M4 Ultra, they obviously would have done. But clearly, something went wrong and it was either delay the Studio further or release now. Given it was still on M2, Apple sensibly decided that an update took priority. Most buyers likely get the Max anyway, and the M3 Ultra is still a big step up on the M2.

 

[amaze1499]

I have a hunch, whoever complains about configuration or price does probably not belong to the target group after all?

 

[pksv]

macOS has a horrible time with docks and hubs. I have spent almost $1,000 on them and they all have issues. Even the $400+ ones from places like OWC.

Most annyoing thing is that you CANNOT force some apps to use external storage, then will still dump it's data on internal one. Perfect example is After Effects.

 

[mode11]

I have a hunch, whoever complains about configuration or price does probably not belong to the target group after all?

Sure, people who consider a product to be poor value or not meet their needs are unlikely to buy one.

 

[Riot Nrrrd]

Man, what a weird situation we're in now! The M3 Ultra thing is just ... bizarre.

(If Apple had the M3 Ultra in the on-deck circle, why didn't they just release an M3 Max/M3 Ultra Mac Studio last year?)

So, if you choose to buy an M4 Max Mac Studio:

(1) Remember Whingegate™? Did all of those M1 and M2 Mac Studios with the whining issue ever get fixed/solved? (Did any of the M2 Studios even have it?) How do we know the new ones won't have a whine?

(2) Like every other M4-based Mac, they'll all be subject to Ultrawidegate™, i.e. the inability to display the "ideal" default scaled 3840x1620 HiDPI resolution on Ultrawide monitors.

(3) Since a Studio is architecturally sort of like a "Maxi" Mac mini, I wonder if it will be subject to Rearportgate™, where USB devices have been seen randomly disconnecting from the rear Thunderbolt ports on the M4-based Mac mini.

Of course, you can probably avoid the Ultrawidegate™ issue by buying the M3 Ultra version at a mere double the price! But it might still whine, and given the internal change to support Thunderbolt 5, it may still be subject to Rearportgate™. Maybe I should go buy an M3-based MacBook Pro ...

 

[ader42]

macOS has a horrible time with docks and hubs. I have spent almost $1,000 on them and they all have issues. Even the $400+ ones from places like OWC.

Agreed, my CalDigit Element TB4 hub is a pain in the proverbial as the slightest touch of the primary TB4 cable means all the attached drives lose connection.

 

[pksv]

Man, what a weird situation we're in now! The M3 Ultra thing is just ... bizarre.

(If Apple had the M3 Ultra in the on-deck circle, why didn't they just release an M3 Max/M3 Ultra Mac Studio last year?)

So, if you choose to buy an M4 Max Mac Studio:

(1) Remember Whingegate™? Did all of those M1 and M2 Mac Studios with the whining issue ever get fixed/solved? (Did any of the M2 Studios even have it?) How do we know the new ones won't have a whine?

(2) Like every other M4-based Mac, they'll all be subject to Ultrawidegate™, i.e. the inability to display the "ideal" default scaled 3840x1620 HiDPI resolution on Ultrawide monitors.

(3) Since a Studio is architecturally sort of like a "Maxi" Mac mini, I wonder if it will be subject to Rearportgate™, where USB devices have been seen randomly disconnecting from the rear Thunderbolt ports on the M4-based Mac mini.

Of course, you can probably avoid the Ultrawidegate™ issue by buying the M3 Ultra version at a mere double the price! But it might still whine, and given the internal change to support Thunderbolt 5, it may still be subject to Rearportgate™. Maybe I should go buy an M3-based MacBook Pro ...

I appreciate the commitment, excellent post, I had a good laugh 😁

 

[skippermonkey]

After a bit of research, it looks like the M3 Ultra is worth an upgrade so I have the top-of-the-range model on preorder. I’m hoping eBay does the business on my M2 Ultra Studio (already have a bid and several watchers), but given the dire state of the world (thanks Donald) I may as well spend my money now and worry about it later. Assuming there is a later, of course.

 

[michaeljk]

The first thing I did when this news came out was to check to see if I was still within the return period for the Mac mini I purchased a month ago (answer: nope). I'd been reading rumors that the M4 Mac Studio wouldn't be out until mid-year and didnt' want to wait that long.

 

[matrix6028]

I'm ready to upgrade my M4 Mac Mini, but Apple doesn’t offer a trade-in program for it? They told me it’s too new to qualify. I received this Mac Mini as a gift, and its specs don’t meet my workflow needs. Initially, I thought I could trade it in for a higher-spec Mac Mini, but that wasn’t allowed. When I went to the Apple Store, it was suggested waiting for the new Mac Studio to trade it in, but it turns out I can’t even do that...??

 

[Ifti]

I was waiting for a M4 Max Studio, and got one.
It's just the Studio Display I thought would be updated alongside it, but looks like that's a next year update. So now not sure whether to go ahead, or stick with my M1 Max MBP for a while longer......but then, when do you stop?!

 

[obviouslogic]

Did anyone ever determine if the M3 Max had the ultra fusion connector? If not then I look forward to a shot of the M3 ultra die.

Apparently it did not (was never verified), but I have to think this “M3 Max” is a modified variant as it has Thunderbolt 5 controllers, the M3 Max in the MacBooks only supported TB 4.