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achmafooma said:
I don't know enough about any of this to take an "Apple Comp. is right" or "Apple Corps is right," but it seems to me that there's an easy way to solve this.

Merge.


In looking up info on Apple Corps, I was able to find a report that says that they made £18.2 million in profits in 2002. At current P:E ratio's, that would put the upper credible limit on the total value of Apple Corps at somewhere around $500M.

I'd not say "Merge", but "Buy 'em Out". If they're reluctant, go see MJ (or whoever) with the big checkbook to secure a broader Beetles "rights" catalog ...and a hugely interesting question on the entire subject is if getting complete ownership out of the UK makes the Works then have Copyright Laws of non-UK owners result in them not starting to expire in 2012.

Another interesting factor in all of this is: "Just what is GarageBand?" Does this move Apple USA further over the grey "Music" line that's Apple Corp's domain? Or is it really a business opportunity that couild give Garage Band musicians a real label?

All very interesting, but in the long and short of it, I'm personally just tired of these sorts of tit-for-tat lawyer grudgematches. They should get this problem definitively sorted out once and for all.


-hh
 
you NEW PEOPLE..ahem..don't get it

..John Lennon had a vision.

One which Steve Jobs attempted to pursue in his company.

This was John vision of a "pure non-corporate" (yes you can read all the sixties...New Age Politics..Greening of America BS you wanna into it..I know Mark Satin's sister...:p )...intelluctual attempt at a pure media company..with
"Eden-like" objectives.

It is still possible guys.

The Internet especially Internet2 technologies and P2P makes it possible.
You can actually do crazy stuff (like David Bowie's "community mix board"..and
other stuff) John Lennon would have loved to have been involved with.

Go back and watch "The Strawberry Statement" if you need a clue. The Original Woodstock maybe.

There WERE non-violent Idealists out there who NEVER were heard on these issues. The internet is just NOW giving them a voice. Even us DoD contractors are interested.

Some of us are doing "warp drive communions" with these new technologies.

The future has just happened.

ww
 
Laurent said:
They... distribute... music... over... a... music... service... How obvious is that? It's a freaking MUSIC STORE! It's like Apple Corps opening a COMPUTER STORE... Even if they aren't creating software or hardware, it's computer related nontheless...

And the original dispute was over the use of the name Apple. Look at how many companies you have using it? Apple Corp is nothing more then looking for a easy buck. The other companies that are using the name Apple don't have the deep pockets that Apple Computer has. They are looking at things in the broadest possible way. That can be a two-way street as well.

Having a website is computer nonetheless and according to some reports, the original agreement said that Apple Computer would handle all computer related business. You can’t have a website without the use of computers and you can't sell music online without computers and software as well.
 
g4cubed said:
True to a point. The iPod is by rights a storage devise, but introduced as a storage devise that held music that you can buy from ITMS, which is IMHO, is what the suit will be about. I still think Apple Computer foresaw this happening and this time the settlement will end this once and for all. As I stated in an earlier post, that's why the big bank roll that Apple Computer has on hand. It was/is to settle this and have a future in the music direction.

No, the iPod was out before iTMS. While there may have been plans about a music store, it was not available when the iPod was first introduced. The iTMS is just over a year old, the iPod was introduced in 2001, two years before the iTMS.

I disagree. What if the iPod or iTMS never took off? Apple Corp could still argue the same point as they are now.
 
Zaty said:
If Apple Computer could buy Apple Corps for a decent price, they should do it. Think about it, Apple Computer having their own music label. They could start "The Apple GarageBand Award for Talented Young Musicians". Musicians could send in their records (made in GarageBand, of course) and the winners would get a contract and people could buy their music from iTMS.

What does having a label and having the ability to sell music from an independent artist? You don't need to be a label for that. A contract would just be a waste. Give them a portion of the fee they charge and be done with it. No one buys it, neither side makes any money.
 
MentalFabric said:
Think about it for a second, it's not just their website. If Apple comp. had nothing to do with music all that would come up for 'apple music' on google would be sites related to apple corp., even if their placeholder didn't show.

Not true, with search engines you can pay to be up on the top. You can also search for something and get no hits, but get to the website though. In the case of Google, they have not looked at that particular site.
 
atat_jack said:
Before you decide that Apple Computer "obviously" violated the terms of the agreement, take at look at those terms, because it's a lot less obvious to me than it once was.

http://www.courtservice.gov.uk/judgmentsfiles/j2468/apple-v-apple.htm

"Apple Corps Field of Use" means...
any current or future creative works whose principal content is music and/or musical performances; regardless of the means by which those works are recorded, or communicated, whether tangible or intangible

Thanks for posting this!

Of course, the interpretation of all of this is what is going to determine the outcome. But when I read that, it seems to me that Apple has violated this section with iTMS. Apple Computer has taken "creative works" (sound recordings) whose primary content is music and has "pristinely" encoded them into protected Fairplay AAC files which it sells and "communicates" through iTMS.

Ouch.
 
JJTiger1 said:
When was the last time you referred to your computer as an Apple? :confused:

Everyone who I know refers to their computer as a "Mac". :)

Maybe it's time for Steve to change the company name from Apple to Mac. :cool:

Yes! I've been thinking the same thing for some time now.

OS X is really an update of the NeXT OS rather than the original Mac OS. Yes, it has the "Mac" spirit designed in, but it's really not "Mac."

Yet, we still call them Macs. And it's obvious that whatever computer Jobs & Co. decide to release and whatever software it contains, it will be a Mac.

So, the valuable brand here is Mac/Macintosh, not Apple. Even the iPod was designed to look like a mini-version of the original Mac -- it even uses the original Mac Chicago system font!

I say give The Beatles back their "Apple" for the settlement and call it a day. And continue selling iMacs, eMacs, PowerMacs, Mac iBooks, Mac PowerBooks... and "iPods by Macintosh."

I doubt this would hurt the Macintosh Computer Company and the Macintosh Music Store in any way. :) Some may argue that in many people's minds, "Macintosh" means "doesn't work with a PC"... well, that's not anything that a good marketing campaign cannot solve ;-) Really, how many people are there who realize that Apple makes iPods/iTunes but don't know that Apple makes Macs. In many people's minds, Apple is equivalent with Macintosh.
 
Lanbrown said:
No, the iPod was out before iTMS. While there may have been plans about a music store, it was not available when the iPod was first introduced. The iTMS is just over a year old, the iPod was introduced in 2001, two years before the iTMS.

I disagree. What if the iPod or iTMS never took off? Apple Corp could still argue the same point as they are now.
You're wrong!
Yes iTMS came out 2 years later but was conceived at the same time. A quote for Chris Bell of Apple
The iPod and iTunes have always [gone] hand in glove. When we released the iPod, we knew that iTunes would be a companion to it, but we wanted to wait before releasing it. At the time, there were a number of failed attempts at online music subscription services and mini-sites, and we waited until we could do it right and have it work seamlessly. We were ready last April, so we launched it then, and I think we've seen why it was worth the wait.
Here's a link to the whole story http://www.technewsworld.com/story/32651.html

So both the iPod and iTMS where conceived together but just not released together.
 
Boycott Apple Corp

Who is with me? Me and my fish are going to boycott Apple Corp! :) I don't like the beatles anyway...Arg Who cares! :)
 
g4cubed said:
You're wrong!
Yes iTMS came out 2 years later but was conceived at the same time. A quote for Chris Bell of Apple Here's a link to the whole story http://www.technewsworld.com/story/32651.html

So both the iPod and iTMS where conceived together but just not released together.

But iTMS was not available, just the application called iTunes that did not have any iTMS functionality. You had to update iTunes to get iTMS functionality when it was released.

Just because they were conceived together means nothing. Apple Corp could argue that iPod is music related. iTMS wasn't even announced when the iPod debuted.
 
iPost said:
Yes! I've been thinking the same thing for some time now.

OS X is really an update of the NeXT OS rather than the original Mac OS. Yes, it has the "Mac" spirit designed in, but it's really not "Mac."

Yet, we still call them Macs. And it's obvious that whatever computer Jobs & Co. decide to release and whatever software it contains, it will be a Mac.

So, the valuable brand here is Mac/Macintosh, not Apple. Even the iPod was designed to look like a mini-version of the original Mac -- it even uses the original Mac Chicago system font!

I say give The Beatles back their "Apple" for the settlement and call it a day. And continue selling iMacs, eMacs, PowerMacs, Mac iBooks, Mac PowerBooks... and "iPods by Macintosh."

I doubt this would hurt the Macintosh Computer Company and the Macintosh Music Store in any way. :) Some may argue that in many people's minds, "Macintosh" means "doesn't work with a PC"... well, that's not anything that a good marketing campaign cannot solve ;-) Really, how many people are there who realize that Apple makes iPods/iTunes but don't know that Apple makes Macs. In many people's minds, Apple is equivalent with Macintosh.

Apple Corps are apparently feeling like they can get well over $28 M because of this case, do you really think they'll end it if apple agrees to change its name? And it would be very hard to do that anyway, they would also have to change their logo, which is very well known. And no, Mac is not more famous/thought of than Apple. Apple is thought of when you say ipod, itunes, and many other apple products, not Mac.
 
ioinc said:
I think its fair to say that the iPod is music related... the headphones where the giveaway for me :D

It also can hold other information as well as be a bootable drive. The iPod can also be used for audible books, which would not be music related.
 
Lanbrown said:
It also can hold other information as well as be a bootable drive. The iPod can also be used for audible books, which would not be music related.

In fact... does anybody even use it to listen to music? They could probably resolve a lot of confusion by removing this feature all together.

Or.. they could try to open up new markets by advertising it as a device people could use to listen to music. Imagine the ad campaign they could come up with if they did this... people ... no silhouettes... dancing as they listen to music on their iPods.

They could even advertise a link to the iTunes Music Store... something like iTunes + iPod...

The possibilities are endless. :rolleyes:

sigh... if only the iPod where music related. :D
 
voodoofish said:
Maybe that's why they brought out iTunes relatively late compared with other computer jukebox software - they where waiting to see if it was worth the risk first-of-all (or if they would absolutely have to do it to continue selling Macs, cause I doubt many people would buy them if iLife so obviously lacked music software).

You mean 'maybe that's why they brought out iTunes....'right after they acquired soundjam and the engineers. Apple didn't develop iTunes. They have made it their own and probably rewritten the entire thing, but it's essentialy soundjam.

Why does everyone only focus on Apple selling major label artists through ITMS as the only way in which apple has entered the music business? Garage Band, Logic, etc...Apple will sell you a computer, give you software with pre-programmed loops, let you sell that through itms. Apple even makes free sounds available. Remember when there were 20 listings for 'Silence' on ITMS? Getting the Beatles thing out of the way doesn't just avoid a meritless lawsuit in spirit, but it allows Apple to actually do a lot more w/o worrying if someone is going to try to take them to court ever again.

What's up w/ the Apple board of directors......it's like a museum of famous people with Steve running the show...let's just hope it doesn't become all has beens...
 
trilogic said:
lawyers and the us law :rolleyes:

man am I glad we don't have this huge lawyer-industry in europe

The suit was filed in London. Lawyers are everywhere...but yes I agree to your point, the highly litigous state of the US is disgusting.
 
For those of you ever so confident about your interpretations of law and the Apple v. Apple agreement, NPR did an excellent piece pointing out how tenuous Apple CORP's possition may be. Turns out, the only real reason Apple COMP may want to setttle is to get those juicy Beatles track rights.

Read or listen to the whole thing before screaming about how "obvious" Apple comp's violation is.

http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3931329
 
From Business Week online:



http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/sep2004/tc20040930_9317_tc056.htm

BYTE OF THE APPLE
By Alex Salkever

John, Paul, George, Ringo...and Steve?




Jobs and the Beatles' company are facing off in court again, but don't expect the iTunes impresario to sing the blues this time around

Steven P. Jobs loves the Beatles. He plays the Liverpool quartet's songs at Apple expositions, and the CEO of Apple Computer (AAPL ) has even compared his own management team to the Fab Four. Alas, sometimes what you love takes you to court. For the third time since 1981, Apple faces a legal scrap with Apple Corps, the music- and copyright-management outfit originally formed by the Beatles.

The pending claim alleges that the iTunes online music store violates a previous agreement limiting the types of business Apple Computer may pursue under the Apple trademark. The case will be heard in London's High Court later this year. In the two previous cases, Apple Corps emerged as the clear victor, basically dictating terms to Apple Computer.

This time the outcome is far from a lock for Apple Corps. Make no mistake: There will be a settlement. No one benefits from pushing a case all the way through a full trial and appeals because the costs are prohibitive. But analyst predictions that the case could cost Apple Computer hundreds of millions of dollars in settlement payments, even the use of its own name on music products, are way out of line.

"FAIR READING."* Why do I say this? Although the case is wending its way through British courts right now, a parallel suit was filed in a Northern California federal court at the same time. Both parties agreed on Sept. 21 to consolidate the two cases in Britain. A close reading of the California filing, which is similar to the British one, reveals an extremely complex case -- one that a London judge has already criticized for a lack of clarity. But some important language in the case appears to support Apple Computer's claim that it did not break previous trademark agreements or contracts.

First, a little history: In 1978, the Beatles and Apple Corps first sued Apple Computer for trademark violations. The parties settled, with Jobs & Co. coughing up $80,000 in 1981. Apple Computer also promised to stay out of the music business, in any way, shape, or form, and stick to computers.

In 1991, Apple Corps sued Apple Computer again. The suit alleged that Apple Computer violated the 1981 settlement by including musical digital interface (MIDI) software on its computers. Such software allows a computer to record electronic instruments. To resolve that case out of court, Apple paid $26.5 million and signed a settlement designed to establish ground rules regulating which outfit could do what with the Apple name.

In July, 2003, Apple Corps sued Apple Computer yet again. This suit, which is still pending, alleges that Apple's iTunes music service violated the 1991 agreement. Although that pact remains private, key portions of it are cited in public court papers. And one of those passages in the court document strongly implies that Apple Corps agreed to allow Apple to pursue digital music initiatives, but not package, sell, or distribute any physical music materials such as CDs.

TIGHT BUNDLE.* "So long as there is not a use of the Apple Computer marks in distributing physical CDs, which [Apple Computer is] not doing, the use of software to distribute music seems to be within a fair reading of the contract," says Barry Felder, chief litigator at New York law firm Brown Raysman.

Beyond the legal merits of Apple Computer's position, the reality is that Apple Corps could claim only minimal damages for this particular trademark violation. In most trademark disputes, liability is limited to profits derived from the violations, and Apple's online iTunes Music Store is barely profitable. After paying record labels and music-publishing companies for the right to sell songs, then funding distribution, maintenance, and marketing costs, Apple derives just a few cents in operating profits from each 99-cent download. Apple would be lucky to have made $5 million in net profits from iTunes since inception.

A settlement could end up larger than $5 million, however. That's because Apple has tied its future to the iPod and tightly bundled it with iTunes. So should Apple Corps win in court, Apple Computer might have to pay a bit more to settle this case. But a very, very large settlement remains highly unlikely.

STRONG BRANDS.* The worst-case scenario for Apple Computer is if the London court tells Apple to remove its trademark from music-related products. Such a decision could extend to the rest of the European Union (although it's unclear whether such a ruling would hold sway in the U.S.). But even if Apple is forced to cut the iPod and iTunes Music Store loose from the mother ship and sell them via a new company, it probably wouldn't matter much.

"The iPod and iTunes brand names are very, very strong," says Michael Gartenberg, an analyst with tech consultancy Jupiter Research. In fact, Apple has already taken a step in that direction by creating a new division exclusively for iPod design, production, and manufacturing.

This is one suit that appears to present a strong chance for an Apple Computer win. However, it's nearly impossible to predict judicial logic -- even if the judge owns an iPod, as the one hearing this case does. But if Apple Computer should lose this legal battle, it still has the artillery triumph in the digital-download war. Maybe it could finally ink a deal with Apple Corp that adds those much-missed Beatles songs to the iTunes Music Store.
 
Lanbrown said:
But iTMS was not available, just the application called iTunes that did not have any iTMS functionality. You had to update iTunes to get iTMS functionality when it was released.

Just because they were conceived together means nothing. Apple Corp could argue that iPod is music related. iTMS wasn't even announced when the iPod debuted.
I think that debuting them (iPod/ITMS) seperately could have been part of their strategy to try and differentiate the two, knowing that this would possibly infinge upon the 1991 settlement agreement. But even back then, Apple Computer knew they would to go hand in hand.

I believe that Steve and his legal beagles looked at all the legal ramifications before they decided to go ahead with production of the iPod. I also believe that part of that $5 billion bank roll is there to finally rid Apple Computer from that rotted decaying Corp.

They say one bad apple spoils the bunch. Well Apple Corp. is past it's expiration date :eek: and needs to be removed for good.
 
g4cubed said:
It was a good article to read.
Just 1 question. Why did you reprint the story when you posted the link? I was just wondering not ragging. :confused:

For some reason I thought this was a subscription service. Just a "d-oh" on my part. :eek:
 
powermac666 said:
For some reason I thought this was a subscription service. Just a "d-oh" on my part. :eek:
I understand completely, it's a slow day and I was just wondering.
:D
 
It's difficult for me to see lawyers causing all this trouble
between 2 companies that I mutually respect.

I don't think anyone confuses Apple Corp ( BEATLES ) products
with Apple Computer products.

However, the problem I see is that previous aggreement DO limit Apple Computer from entering the music production, recording and distribution
business under the APPLE trademark.

With iTMS they have entered the music distribution arena.

With Logic 7, Garage Band, Pro Band, FCPro and on site promotion of recording gear from M-Audio, E-Magic and Digidesign/Protools etc.,
they have clearly entered the music production and recording arena.
And this goes way beyond the simple use of Midi in their software.

This also makes it possible for anyone with the budget for this gear
to enter the recording studio business, therefore competing with many
professional production studios.

Even so, with all this, Apple computer IS NOT in any way attempting
to damage Apple Corps' rights to The Beatles music royalties or
in any way attempting to sell The Beatles music without due compensation.

In fact, I would love to see what equipment upgrades are being used today
at Abbey Road Studios.
 
I think that it would be mutually beneficial for both of them to come to an agreement. The Beatles would have another outlet for their music.
 
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