Apple Asks California DMV to Make Changes to Autonomous Vehicle Testing Policies

Discussion in ' News Discussion' started by MacRumors, Apr 28, 2017.

  1. 69Mustang, Apr 28, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017

    69Mustang macrumors 604


    Jan 7, 2014
    In between a rock and a hard place
    You and I agree on a lot of topics but I'm gonna take a hard pass on that and disagree strongly. What's being reported is just a part of doing business. It not only affects the tech industry but every facet of society. The media reports what it wants to report. That is not, nor should it ever be, a reason for not reporting the data on autonomous driving. More importantly, the media is a moot point that has nothing to do with any of this. I'll explain.

    Do me a favor, go back and read the article. This has nothing to do with disclosure to the public. Apple is requesting to not report the information to the DMV, not the public. If the disengagements don't have to be reported to the DMV, then there is no record for them to have on file. The public only comes into play because the information is open to the public. Transparency is the only way to do this properly and safely so the public has full confidence in the information being disseminated. When we start excluding what's being reported, we start fomenting mistrust. Mistrust is the last thing autonomous driving needs.
  2. filmantopia macrumors 6502a


    Feb 5, 2010

    Nothing in that list would affect the safety of the general public.
  3. drewyboy macrumors 65816

    Jan 27, 2005
    Riiiiiiight... just like close calls shouldn't be reported to the FAA, right?
  4. Candlelight macrumors 6502a


    Oct 12, 2011
    New Zealand
    If anything the rules should be made even more open and all details should be released. This is serious AI territory we're heading into. Yes you need to protect your corporate business but not at the safety of others.
  5. AngerDanger, Apr 28, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2017

    AngerDanger macrumors 601


    Dec 9, 2008
    Well, based on the photos we've seen, they're not exactly going to be able to sneak up on you.
  6. keysofanxiety macrumors G3


    Nov 23, 2011
    You and I frequently disagree on a lot of topics. But for what little it's worth, I think you're spot on with this.

    If you're designing self-driving vehicles, you need to start with safety and work backwards from there. Holding off from reporting bugs and hiccups, no matter how trivial (which inevitably will always happen with early testing in any industry on any product) is fine if you're making computers and phones, but it simply shouldn't be done with something like this.

    Apple know that there will be problems with testing — it's going to happen. There's no way of avoiding problems as that's how technology evolves and improves. Their fear is the media spin on the situation; and yes, the media will spin it. Memes will be made, haters will laugh.

    But if you're 100% serious about entering an industry like this, you need to be 100% ready to take the soaring negativity and twisted, ego-bruising fallout that will always come with it. I'm not convinced the Apple of ANY era would happily accept that as a tradeoff.
  7. dannyyankou macrumors G3


    Mar 2, 2012
    Scarsdale, NY
    I disagree with Apple here. It's not like they're testing an iPhone or Mac. I'm interested in test results, for safety reasons.
  8. Rainshadow macrumors member


    Feb 16, 2017
    Not quite. Apple wants the policies CLARIFIED and,yes, some amendments.

    "Apple is concerned that inconsistency in how permit holders reports disengagements can lead to media coverage that causes public confusion and misunderstanding." - article

    I am not for Apple being "selective" in their reports, as you claim they are asking for. But I am for everyone playing on the same field. If their is ambiguity, it should be cleared up. For everyone. As people point out, it is a safety issue.

    Edit:And for the record, I don't agree with some of the disengagements apple wants to omit.
  9. Relentless Power macrumors Penryn

    Relentless Power

    Jul 12, 2016
    I see this is a way for them trying to safeguard themselves from any type of scrutiny and/or evidence supporting what they truly are doing. Everyone knows Apple is highly secretive and very discreet with any undisclosed plans, this is just another concept of them trying to avoid any media bias to skirt around the guidelines, but at what safety costs is the measure.
  10. pat500000 Suspended


    Jun 3, 2015
    Should ban self driving cars. Not safe. Technology is not 100 percent realiable
  11. jerryk macrumors 601

    Nov 3, 2011
    SF Bay Area
    In the US alone there are 40,000+ traffic deaths per year, worldwide over 1.1 million per year. 95% of those are due to human error.

    Tesla alone has over 1.5 billion self-driven miles, 1 death while operator was watching DVD.

    I will take the automation over human drivers.
  12. Dorje Sylas macrumors 6502

    Jun 8, 2011
    Should ban humans driving cars. Proven (with much data) to be not safe, deadly even. Defiantly not 100% reliable. With statistics of risk setup by insurance companies to determine how likely a person in your age/gender/other bracket is to be "not safe."
  13. citysnaps macrumors 601

    Oct 10, 2011
    San Francisco
    And people driving cars on the freeway, or anywhere for that matter, are 100% reliable to not cause accidents with devastating outcomes?
  14. jerryk macrumors 601

    Nov 3, 2011
    SF Bay Area

    Remember car complies faced this same publicity from Hearst and other yellow journalists. After all who would want a smelly, noisy automobile that needed maintenance every day, could only do 15 mph, and for which the gas costed more than a average worker's daily wage. Horses are more reliable, and can be left to feed in wild fields.
  15. Samford, Apr 28, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017

    Samford macrumors member

    Jan 24, 2011
    Just the fact that at least 1 in 10 drivers are drug affected by illegal or legal drugs makes automated cars much safer.

    The 1 in 10 figure comes from Australian police roadside testing of drivers for drugs and alcohol. Prescription drugs are a real problem. With future advances in drug testing this test figure will get worse.
  16. MH01 Suspended


    Feb 11, 2008
    You assume that an automated car could have avoided those deaths. Example, One drunk idiot will still kill others, if they are driving or if a computer is.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 28, 2017 ---
    Drugs are not the main issue, alcohol and reckless driving are the main causes.

    Country roads claim many in oz
  17. arggg14 macrumors 6502a

    Dec 30, 2014
    Just like the cell carriers wanting to be involved in the iPhone.... "Get out of the way DMV, just pave the roads." We got this. -Apple
  18. Rainshadow macrumors member


    Feb 16, 2017
    I am always suprised reading the "self-driving cars are dangerous" comments.

    They are categorically and statistically not dangerous in any situation that they have been tested. They are not even market ready and they are way safer in these uncontrolled environments...

    Get REAL! How many people do you see looking down at their phone on the highway driving 80mph(US)?

    With time, and of course changes in social norms, this will cut down on deaths significantly.

    And those who don't think it will happen, it will. At a minimum it will be led by taxi companies and or delivery companies. They will save money by not paying drivers which will be a whole different topic.
  19. diipii macrumors 6502a


    Dec 6, 2012
  20. GoodWheaties macrumors 6502a


    Jul 8, 2015
    *cough* Google *cough* :) but I agree, it doesn't seem fair to have to report things like when the driver disables the system as an incident. It only skews the data and creates alarm for little reason.
  21. TechGeek76 Suspended

    Jul 18, 2016
    WHY shouldn't that be reported? IF the user disables it, that certainly SHOULD be known.
  22. pat500000 Suspended


    Jun 3, 2015
    I love these "automatic self driving car is safe" comments. People and technology is not safe proof. Nothing is safe. Its life. If they cant clear out osx bugs and ios bugs, what makes people think this is safe. Automatic cars are made by humans. If people made errors with these cars, then its porky pig for ya'll "thats all folks."
  23. 69Mustang macrumors 604


    Jan 7, 2014
    In between a rock and a hard place
    To me, this sounds like nothing more than Apple being concerned about PR. If I'm honest, that excerpt from the article is bordering on FUD. What confusion or misunderstanding has the public had about autonomous driving as it relates to testing? What confusion or misunderstanding is Apple anticipating? Why is no other company (and multiple are testing) expressing the "concern" for the public? If I'm the DMV representative I would say "suck it up buttercup". The media has always, does, and will forever more spin facts to suite the narrative they're trying to present to the public. Apple is no more or less a victim of media bias than anyone else or any other company the media decides to focus on. But that's getting away from the topic. Not reporting data isn't going to help the public gain any understanding or alleviate any confusion. If the media erroneously reports info, companies correct them. Just like they've always done.

    Regardless of the intent, media coverage should never be used as justification for suppressing information.

    Three things: 1. That's not just my "claim". It's directly quoted from the .pdf Apple submitted to the DMV. 2. You say you're for everyone playing on the same field. Isn't everyone playing on the same field right now? Apple is asking for a different playing field. 3. We all agree it's a safety issue. How does data omission contribute to safety?

    Apologies if my tone comes off too aggressively. That is not my intent. I'm on the record as not being a fan of autonomous driving so if we're going to do it, we gotta do it right. Asking for concessions on data disclosure is definitely not right.
  24. Juan007 macrumors 6502a


    Jun 14, 2010
    I don't understand what the issue is, others have been following the rules for years.
  25. 2IS macrumors 68030

    Jan 9, 2011
    Of your entire post, Your last sentence is by far the most accurate.

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