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This will get thrown out of court. I promise. (Unless the lawsuit is in California, there's a curve ball there)
The "curve ball" isn't really a curve--the T-Mobile case is about an arbitration clause in the service agreement, and it's part of a growing trend of throwing such clauses out where they're contrary to public policy, since binding arbitration isn't appropriate for all disputes and barring class actions is just plain unconscionable.

The issue of termination fees and locking hasn't been heard yet and will likely be far less interesting. There's virtually no chance of them throwing out locks entirely, and if the SC denies review on that, it won't even be binding on the whole state. At best, we might get a cancellation fee reduction or waiver for people with unsubsidized handsets and a requirement to follow common policy of unlocking voluntarily or when contractual obligations are met--not a bad thing, but hardly earth-shattering.
 
The "curve ball" isn't really a curve--the T-Mobile case is about an arbitration clause in the service agreement, and it's part of a growing trend of throwing such clauses out where they're contrary to public policy, since binding arbitration isn't appropriate for all disputes and barring class actions is just plain unconscionable.
I suppose you're right about that. I'm more interested in the outcome as it will probably set a precedent on which the Apple case will rest. Perhaps "curve ball" wasn't the best choice of words.
 
Sorry, that's wrong in this case as TWO companies are involved.
I think the case would define Apple and AT&T as more like a 'cartel' rather than 'monopoly'. Look it up on Wikipedia.
To use similar analogies, this would be like driving your Toyota Camry and being forced to only fill up with Exxon gas.

Yeah... if Toyota finally put a hydrogen fuel cell car on the market and worked with Exxon to construct an extensive network of hydrogen fuel cell fill-up locations in exchange, and Toyota mentioned in the owner's manual, and in all their car ads that the only compatible hydrogen connections were available at Exxon stations, that using another one (which would not have passed safety and FCC... oops, I mean um... EPA regulations, not to mention user experience testing) would void the warranty and from providing free product upgrades that happened to make devices they aren't designed for not work anymore...

then it would be like the iPhone.

but it wouldn't be a cartell
OPEC is a cartel, Apple is a brilliant company that provides amazing products, a great phone, but I'm not allowed to choose my own ringtones, of course, no no no, that would be too easy, to let users make their own ringtones... And if you think iTunes 7.4.2 does what I'm saying, then you have lost the vision already. It's sad when the most revolutionary and user-friendly phone on the American market makes a gray-haired/balding man in California decide what ringtones you can have.
 
My son has a sidekick 3 (danger) and it is an exclusive product of Tmobile and has been since its launch several years ago. Why would this not be cause for such scandal and outrage as this current partnership with Apple and Att? I honestly do not understand...educate me (painlessly...)

Because some people want an iPhone, but they don't like AT&T, or AT&T does not provide service in their area, like my granddad's house far out in the country side.

Apparently nobody cares enough about this "sidekick" to give a second thought about using the government to control that business for their own gain. ;)
 
I dont think the real problem is exclusivity. This is not at all uncommon, but its more the stated standpoint that under no account will they unlock the device (at end of contract for example). If the device was rented then ok, but its not...its purchased, so its my property and if at the end of contract I want to goto another supplier then that my choice and I should be able to get it unlocked.

What about if I relocate to an area where the exclusive agreement isnt in force, for example from Germany to Italy? Why should I be disadvantaged by Apple / T-Mobiles agreement?
 
In France, phones must be avail both locked and unlocked

In France, cell phone companies are required to offer both unlocked and locked versions of the same phone.

From ITWire

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/14767/53/

French law.... prohibits any requirement that a product and a service are purchased together. This threatens Apple's plans for a single iPhone carrier in each geography.
.....

What if the only way to buy a Samsung LCD TV was through your cable provider, and you had to pay a monthly fee on top of the purchase price?
 
apple basically asked for it when it went with GSM technology

the idea of the GSM technology is that you can go overseas and use the local sim card for a lot cheaper... that's what's pissing people off.

if apple would have went with sprint or verizon, then that's a different story.
but verizon only works on one network, so apple would have need different iphones for different networks all over the world such as japan, and korea.

but by picking GSM... the world standard.... then definitely will face these unlock issues. I think it's very fair if you keep the account in good standing for 6 months, then apple should unlock the phone just like any other phone with GSM technology.
 
jealousy

Sounds like someone realized they can't compete. Maybe they're trying to slow down the competition and maybe make some money in the process. These guys need to buy the judge to win this case. They don't stand a chance. But then again, OJ is free... Or is he?
 
It's a far cry from a monopoly. Maybe I will sue the coffee shop I am at because I can not get Starbuck's coffee here.


I wish would people would ****, money hungry bastards the whole lot of hem.
Buyer beware.
You can't expect starbucks coffee if the cups/chairs/street barries/windows have Allpress printed on them.
 
It amazes me that these kind of stupid lawsuits are allowed to waste the courts time. And that no-one seems to want to even try and do something about it. This one is as ridiculous as the other iPhone one claiming $1M damages for a sub $200 loss (presumably there was alot of mental anguish involved).
And that old chestnut about the woman who burned herself on McDonalds coffee and got $50M. Here's how that one should have gone:

Jugdge (to plaintiff): "Have you ever had a cup of coffee before going to McDonalds on the date in question?"
Plaintiff: "Yes."
Judge: "Case dismissed."

Maybe some sort of comittee could be setup for when these cases are thrown out, to charge those that bring them with wasting the courts time or something similar.
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3A109a Safari/419.3)

Sobe said:
I'd love to see these people pay every penny of Apple's legal fees when their silly suits get tossed out.

If apple doesn't get the legal fees back, how about a class action suit against the law firm representing these idiots because they are increasing the cost of apple products for the rest of us.
 
Does anyone here think that Apple wanted the iPhone locked to AT&T for 5 years anyways? I think they had to acquiesce to that particular point in order to get the phone to market, whether they decided that before negotiations began or whether AT&T pressured them into it. I've always seen Steve Jobs as a very forward thinker when it came to this sort of thing, and I can truly believe that he might have agreed knowing full well that the political and social climate in the US right now just might be ripe for a lawsuit that would result in a ban on cell phone locking. He wants to open up the market and change the way that cell phones operate on a wide scale, the crazy visionary that he is (here's to the crazy ones).

I'm willing to bet that if that was his goal, he'll have succeeded before the five year deal is up.

jW
 
I dont think the real problem is exclusivity. This is not at all uncommon, but its more the stated standpoint that under no account will they unlock the device (at end of contract for example). If the device was rented then ok, but its not...its purchased, so its my property and if at the end of contract I want to goto another supplier then that my choice and I should be able to get it unlocked.

What about if I relocate to an area where the exclusive agreement isnt in force, for example from Germany to Italy? Why should I be disadvantaged by Apple / T-Mobiles agreement?

I totally agree. I move around a lot and will definitely live in a country where there is no formal iphone support (most of the countries in the world, actually). And even if we move to a place where Apple sells the iphone, we're still going to have to pay the early termination fee and start another contract there. Maybe this lawsuit won't go anywhere, but I support all efforts to ban phone locking so I support this one too, if for nothing else than to get more media exposure.
 
Ugh!

Lawsuits like this is what is killing us in the US and costing consumers billions each year! This is insane! Why would you buy something, break it, and then complain because you did what they warned you not to do and are upset?

People need to stop looking for a way to cash in on everything that goes on in life. I hope it costs the people who are suing thousands of dollars in wasted court and lawyer fees, and I hope the lawyers who support this sort of junk suits are disbarred.

I'm tired of paying for these silly law suits.
 
Lawsuits like this is what is killing us in the US and costing consumers billions each year! This is insane! Why would you buy something, break it, and then complain because you did what they warned you not to do and are upset?

People need to stop looking for a way to cash in on everything that goes on in life. I hope it costs the people who are suing thousands of dollars in wasted court and lawyer fees, and I hope the lawyers who support this sort of junk suits are disbarred.

I'm tired of paying for these silly law suits.


I agree that lawsuits in the U.S. are crazy, but this is not about individuals buying and iphone, breaking and then demanding money. It's about corporations abusing their power (and not just Apple of course) by forcing consumers to lock themselves into long contracts that can't be broken without heavy penalties. Everywhere else this is a practice that is being restricted or made illegal. It's time U.S. consumers get the same protection and freedom .
 
Haven't read any posts here but...

AT&T is the exclusive carrier in the U.S. for Apple’s iPhone.

By not allowing other carriers to serve the iPhone, the two companies conspired from the beginning of their partnership to maintain a monopoly, the federal lawsuit alleges.

What about when Cingular had the RAZR for a year or so before it was made available to Verizon customers? How is this any different other than this phone being so damn cool that everyone wants it, but not at the expense of switching carriers?
 
This is an insane lawsuit, Monopoly is very narrowly defined, in th past in the US there has been lawsuits against companies that had 100% or almost 100% of the market of an certain segment but they got away with it by arguing that there market really was a part of a larger market with similar products and the was freed. (don't remember the specifics but I learned this from an audio course The teaching company Economics, 3rd Edition try to get hold of this and listen it is very interesting.)

How ever you define the Iphone it will end up with an small percentage of the market.

You cant define a market as "apple branded phones" or similar narrow defenitions

uppdate:


The two different definitions that is resnoable I think is. Multimedia phone (Sony ericsson walkman etc) or smart pone (Nokia n95, blackberry etc) with this definition apple has a very small market share.
 
What if the only way to buy a Samsung LCD TV was through your cable provider, and you had to pay a monthly fee on top of the purchase price?
Well according to most here, you would get told there are pleny of competing TV's and if you don't like Samsung/[Cable Co's] terms you need to bark up a different tree.
the idea of the GSM technology is that you can go overseas and use the local sim card for a lot cheaper... that's what's pissing people off.

if apple would have went with sprint or verizon, then that's a different story.
but verizon only works on one network, so apple would have need different iphones for different networks all over the world such as japan, and korea.

but by picking GSM... the world standard.... then definitely will face these unlock issues. I think it's very fair if you keep the account in good standing for 6 months, then apple should unlock the phone just like any other phone with GSM technology.
I agree, which is what makes all the arguments that include Sprint or Verizon super funny. Even if you could get your Sprint or Verizon phone unlocked you couldn't use it on the competing networks due to the ESN not being recognized. Just like an AT&T sim doesn't allow you to order T-Mobile service. Sadly enough none of the CDMA providers have the kick in the pants needed to get them to adopt RUIM (CDMA's Sim equivalent).
 
I think they need to look it up.." the exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service"

So by their argument...
mcdonalds has a monopoly for the big mac
burger king, the whopper
toyota has a monopoly of the camry

etc...
etc...
etc...

Now, let's talk about letting people buy a phone, use it on any network, and have the ability to switch service anytime you like..

EXACLTY! That's an excellent point. Just goes to show how companies hate success and it's a testiment to Apple for making a product so great that over 250,000 customers exodus sprint to go to AT&T. POWERFUL. So because of that they want their chance at the iPhone so that can draw customers back! They had their chance when APPLE presented the iPhone to them but they did not want to give APPLE the deal they wanted.... so they lost out on Apple, and about 250,000 customers.... and the chance to continue over charging those 250,000 customers :D!
 
I think that this is another advantageous lawsuit being filed here that's based upon the popularity of Apple right now as well as the potential monopolistic characteristics of AT&T as they continue to acquire (again) and grow.
It's just a matter of time before something like this happens.

People should sue the following cartel: US Government + HMO/Private Healthcare Providers + Drug Companies. That, if done right, would be a hell of an interesting case. :D

Peace out from your neighbour to the north... (And no, I didn't spell 'neighbour' wrong!)

AMEN. I won't go off on a socio-political rant, but I agree 100%. Good call.
 
I am sure you did. I read it, too. I think it raises some good points. Some points that at least we can agree are debatable. And that is the points of the courts, right- to settle disputes when parties are in disagreement.

I think some of the points are silly. Others, I think NEED a clarification, if nothing else. Apple has set this in motion with their locking out of unlocks and jailbreaking. Whatever your opinion of those processes, there is an obvious split in opinions ON the legality of those processes. Win or loose, I will be happier to have a firm awsnser to the legality of hacker and Appples actions.

Sort of the Cat Vs. Mouse meets the Lion.

People need to keep in mind too that Verizon Wireless was sued in California in 2005 for crippling the bluetooth on all their phones, specifically the Motorola v710. Verizon's initial response was due to the lack of security in bluetooth, then when they lost in court they admitted it was a business tactic in order for customers to use their (at the time) new "Get It Now" system, which charges per pictures and ringtones as opposed to owners using ObEx via Bluetooth to make and download/upload their own ringtones and pictures. If this suit is done properly, there could be a case for precedence in the Verizon suit. However, the case hinged on Verizon advertising the phone as having full capabilities, which it didn't. So who knows, time till tell.
 
What a waste...

I seem to remember Jobs saying that AT&T spent a lot of time and resources helping them develop the phone services. Shouldn't they be allowed some exclusivity for defvelopment just like any other company or person owning a patent on a product. They do not have control over cell phones in general, just this one phone that has improved capabilities that make it unique in how you market the product. You come up with something new that makes the product desirable. When AT&T was broken up, it was because they controlled the entire telecommunications market. You could not get a phone without buying their services. with cell phones, you can get a competitors phone (keyword: competitor) in every market out there. This is a waste of time and money. Also, now that the iPod touch is out there, you don't even need a phone contract to give you all of the functions outside of the phone and visual voicemail, so stop crying. Just like with every product, some people refuse to be happy with Apple's efforts to develop great products.
 
"The federal lawsuit stated it didn’t know how large the affected class could be but pegged the number at 100 or more and anticipates “there will be millions.”

Apple has sold more than a million iPhones since it hit the market June 29."

Millions eh? But I thought only a little over a million were sold? Hmm....curious.

And wouldn't any person buying a phone after the filing of this lawsuit be unable to join?
 
There's a difference between fielding many potential issues and stretching a field of law to cover that which it is not designed to. You do not want to push your luck in front of a judge, especially when the result is the appearance of incompetence.

Yes, and I agree, taken by themselves, some of the points have little or no merit. But when taken as a whole, the points support each other pointing to an overall supporting of the claim.


I take it you don't live here. California courts are highly deferential to established process, and the California Supreme Court is one of the most conservative in its discretionary power. California courts are bound to follow directives from the bench and will almost never stray from precedent.

Come on matticus, you can't really expect me to believe a WORD of this, can you? No, I do NOT live in CA, but I can see what is going on there. From Wikipedia (I know, not the best source, but for my purposes, it is one stop quote shopping):

The Ninth Circuit is politically liberal (and out of step with Supreme Court precedent.)

Indeed, while the Ninth Circuit had long been instrumental in striking new legal ground, particularly in the areas of immigration law and prisoner rights, it was the Newdow decision that galvanized criticism against what conservatives saw as “judicial activism.”

Hardly conservative. I would go so far as to say it is generally accepted that the 9th circuit is the most liberal of all circuit courts in the US. While in the above quotes, the courts are noted to be liberal in terms of "immigration law and prisoner rights", it seems that consumer right also seem to be held in high regard by the courts, at least in some cases.

Don't confuse the state's liberalism with a willingness to overturn settled law--to do so would be an egregious error. The courts are often generous in application and finding minimum standards to be met, but they are not prone to create wholly new standards at will.

Who said anything about overturning settled law? We are talking here about settling points that are ambiguous or not covered by settled law at all. You previously asked what I find most interesting, and this is my answer: is it in the consumers best interest to allow locked down phones. While I would agree that carriers should be allowed to lock SIMs to a network for a subsidized phone for the period of the contract, that is not the case with an iPhone. This is a debatable and very valid point, and one worthy of a judgment. If a consumer has paid for a phone IN FULL, and completed the terms of their ATT contract and Apple and ATT do NOT furnish (or allow a path to) unlock, I think there is a problem, and I do not think this is in the interest of the consumer. Those who bought the phone and have either canceled their contract within the first 30 days, or canceled after and paid the ETF have completed their obligations to Apple and ATT in total, and are in an unlock limbo. I think it will be very interesting to see what the court says in regard to these people.

Not from a California court in a case of no state interest, no health or safety issue, and no deprivation of liberty and never from anything short of a Supreme Court decision.

Again, it looks as if you have not spent any time reading the actual complaint. There are specific complaints that are alleged to violate California law, as well as federal law. And California has an interest in protecting the rights of their consumers.

Added: Specifically, it is alleged ATT/Apple violate CA Business & Professional Codes 17200 (protect competitors and consumers from illegal, fraudulent, and "unfair" business practice) and 16720 (Anti-Trust), as well as the Cartwright Act. Thus, California has an interest in this action.

On the contrary, it is an attorney's duty to submit any arguments which support your client's cause. Failure to do so not only opens you to suits for malpractice, but also diminishes your chances of victory.

Agreed. Further, as I said above, taken individually, some points of the complaint seem unsupportable. But taken as a group, they show intent.
 
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