Apple Australia is shipping my custom Powerbook

[coattaker]

Apple and resellers

actually PERSON + WORKS AT APPLE STORE = KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT COMPUTERS

Actually, that's not necessarily true, though you will get the usual depressing number of salesmen out of their depth.

I work at a Next Byte store and am sorry to say that yes, Apple do favour their own clients rather than the resellers, even Next Byte who are the largest. We did an experiment and ordered two identical spec machines on the same day, one from Apple direct and one through our own system. The Apple direct order arrived within 8 days, we are still waiting for ours.

It isn't just CTOs either. Apple makes a concerted effort to steal our big clients and shortchange us on service jobs wherever they can. It really is a pity because they need the resellers unless they intend to set up their own support infrastructure, which won't happen here anytime soon because Apple Australia is a joke.

Congratulations to all whose machines have already arrived, apologies to those whose haven't. We do our best.

 

[aswitcher]

Aww..damn the more you guys talk about having yours, the more Im starting to feel left out...and yes Im waiting for a BTO 17"...

When did you order? Through Apple?

Has anyone been scoping out the Mac OSX manuals and books at all the bookshops? I have been eagerly soaking up as much info as I can (Im a switcher)...are there any Mac based computer clubs in Melb?

Well I have been reading mac mags and books since liek July/August. I can recommend the O'Reilly missing manual book for Panther and Mac OSX Hacks 0-596-00460-5. The black Mac OSX Time Saving Techniques for Dummies ISBN 0-7645-5812-9 is also excellent, and if you buy one book that really is a great one to start with for a switcher - although the missing manual is also a must . I got a more basic one for my parents that I found really useful myself getting adjusted to the switch, Visually, Mac OSX Panther ISBN 0-7645-4393-8. The Little Mac iApps Book ISBN 0-321-18747-4 is also pretty good for understanding everything that comes with the mac.

 

[aswitcher]

I work at a Next Byte store and am sorry to say that yes, Apple do favour their own clients rather than the resellers, even Next Byte who are the largest. We did an experiment and ordered two identical spec machines on the same day, one from Apple direct and one through our own system. The Apple direct order arrived within 8 days, we are still waiting for ours.

It isn't just CTOs either. Apple makes a concerted effort to steal our big clients and shortchange us on service jobs wherever they can. It really is a pity because they need the resellers unless they intend to set up their own support infrastructure, which won't happen here anytime soon because Apple Australia is a joke.

You should take this to the NSW Department of Fair Trading, and we should all go to the ACCC and make a thing about it. Apple Australia has a monopoly on supply within Australia and these actions are an abuse of that position.

(edit- oh and ASIC of course)

Can you tell us anything about resellers checking shipments for customers through Apple Australia's special line. How much detail can they/do they provide about where each person's order is at? Can they give the level of detail that you get if you order directly from Apple?

 

[mateybob]

Actually, that's not necessarily true, though you will get the usual depressing number of salesmen out of their depth.

in my experience with using apple, which is around 8 years all up, i can honestly say that ive dealt with only one employee that wasnt completely incompetent on a computer or a customer service level (commonly both).. maybe it was you? which nextbyte do you work at?

 

[coattaker]

You should take this to the NSW Department of Fair Trading, and we should all go to the ACCC and make a thing about it. Apple Australia has a monopoly on supply within Australia and these actions are an abuse of that position.

Can you tell us anything about resellers checking shipments for customers through Apple Australia's special line. How much detail can they/do they provide about where each person's order is at? Can they give the level of detail that you get if you order directly from Apple?

Apple Australia's 'special line' is a website (that doesn't work in Safari) that lists the order status as either In Progress, Backorder, Constrained or Shipped. We never use it for the purpose you describe because it's next to useless. Basically it gets here when it gets here.

As for the fair trading thing, theoretically it could be done, but it would be awfully difficult to prove anything conclusive because the systems involved are so convoluted and subject to many variables. In all honesty it isn't quite as bad as what it seems, since Apple themselves can cut out the middleman in many areas such as freight, re-order levels, education buybacks and so on. But it is darn annoying because customers who just want their machine don't understand how complicated the whole business is. My own feeling is that the market will change in the next few years and the relationship between resellers and Apple and the whole way business is done will change markedly. And a good thing too.

 

[aswitcher]

in my experience with using apple, which is around 8 years all up, i can honestly say that ive dealt with only one employee that wasnt completely incompetent on a computer or a customer service level (commonly both)

But that's pretty true from my experience of those selling digital cameras, mobile phones, plasma and LCD TVs etc. Seems to me that with a technical background, a decent amount of focus and google time, its pretty easy to get up to speed with specific areas of technology but most importantly whats happening overseas and find oneself more informed than the sales people.

Just the other day I had a canon reseller telling me that all DV cameras put the same quality of video down on the tape irrespective of their megapixels and other features. I have had even worse problems having to educate mobile phone sellers and exhibition people on their own hardware as I try and pry out some details missing from their litterature and reviews (like how much onboard free memory etc). Seems sales people aren't that interested in their own products as they need to be to handle modern shoppers...

 

[coattaker]

in my experience with using apple, which is around 8 years all up, i can honestly say that ive dealt with only one employee that wasnt completely incompetent on a computer or a customer service level (commonly both).. maybe it was you? which nextbyte do you work at?

LOL, well I can't say it isn't possible. In fact the main reason I find myself working here is because I care about Apple's cause and can't stand to see how things are done here. Just want to do my bit to help.

With staff at Apple resellers (and most other places) you'll see a few different types. There's the ones who are young and arrogant and know what Bluetooth is and just want to make some money and be cool. There's the ones who are young and arrogant and DON'T know what Bluetooth is and just want to make some money and be cool. There's the ones who are nice and friendly and who know nothing about the product, and there are ones who are not nice or friendly and who know nothing about the product either. Then there are the ones who DO know about the product and are helpful, but have been exposed to the system too long and don't care anymore. The ones who are friendly, honest and know their stuff are few and far between, but they do exist.

I doubt if you have dealt with me because I'm not in Sydney, but I'm always willing to help with something if I can. Just ask

 

[aswitcher]

Apple Australia's 'special line' is a website (that doesn't work in Safari) that lists the order status as either In Progress, Backorder, Constrained or Shipped. We never use it for the purpose you describe because it's next to useless. Basically it gets here when it gets here.

Well that maybe but I was told specifically earlier this week that their is a phone number to use for resellers. I have had my local reseller call that number but only got vague details about delivery delays and maybe tomorrow... It does appear to be a complete mess when you consider that US and it appears Aussies can track every single move their machine makes. I am suspicious enough to think Apple A are muddying the waters on this service to you guys.

The fact their website doesn't work in safari is beyond a joke...

As for the fair trading thing, theoretically it could be done, but it would be awfully difficult to prove anything conclusive because the systems involved are so convoluted and subject to many variables. In all honesty it isn't quite as bad as what it seems, since Apple themselves can cut out the middleman in many areas such as freight, re-order levels, education buybacks and so on. But it is darn annoying because customers who just want their machine don't understand how complicated the whole business is. My own feeling is that the market will change in the next few years and the relationship between resellers and Apple and the whole way business is done will change markedly. And a good thing too.

Well US experiences seem to suggest that many resellers aint to happy with Apple's aggressive change in marketing. I dont expect Apple to open too many stores in Australia anytime soon, but I think they are coming. Maybe 2-3 years the first stores will appear.

 

[aswitcher]

With staff at Apple resellers (and most other places) you'll see a few different types. There's the ones who are young and arrogant and know what Bluetooth is and just want to make some money and be cool. There's the ones who are young and arrogant and DON'T know what Bluetooth is and just want to make some money and be cool. There's the ones who are nice and friendly and who know nothing about the product, and there are ones who are not nice or friendly and who know nothing about the product either. Then there are the ones who DO know about the product and are helpful, but have been exposed to the system too long and don't care anymore. The ones who are friendly, honest and know their stuff are few and far between, but they do exist.

Selling IT has always been on my mind since I did computing science at uni...but I can't say that the work environment (and I guess pay????) are too inspiring. It will be very interesting to see WHEN Apple open their first store (Sydney for sure ) who they hire, because if its the best and the brightest of the Apple Resellers that could be pretty interesting. The way I see it is that 6 months prior to opening Apple US should go undercover to the resellers to see who is up to scratch and have that list handy for when those people turn up to interviews...

Apple stores would be very cool even for just the free wifi...

 

[coattaker]

But that's pretty true from my experience of those selling digital cameras, mobile phones, plasma and LCD TVs etc. Seems to me that with a technical background, a decent amount of focus and google time, its pretty easy to get up to speed with specific areas of technology but most importantly whats happening overseas and find oneself more informed than the sales people.

Just the other day I had a canon reseller telling me that all DV cameras put the same quality of video down on the tape irrespective of their megapixels and other features. I have had even worse problems having to educate mobile phone sellers and exhibition people on their own hardware as I try and pry out some details missing from their litterature and reviews (like how much onboard free memory etc). Seems sales people aren't that interested in their own products as they need to be to handle modern shoppers...

That's very true. I've also worked in an Optus World store and was amazed to hear what some of my colleagues were spouting to innocent customers!

At the end of the day though, salespeople are just doing a job like anyone else and most of them don't have enough passion for the product to keep them constantly reasearching the latest information in the industry, and you can be sure that the employer won't provide it.

If you're someone who enjoys researching such things, then yes, take anything a salesperson says with a grain of salt and an entire spice rack. If you find someone who knows what they're on about you'll know anyway. Trust your own judgment. Again, on the other hand, salespeople deal with enough frustrating customers who don't have the first clue what they're talking about or what they want either that pretty soon it's easy to draw the conclusion that the features and specs of a camera don't matter if you want to shoot video, and that's probably true enough for those people.

There are plenty of stupid salespeople, but far more stupid customers If you know more than the sales guy does, that's cool. Do your own thing!

 

[aswitcher]

Coattaker can you tell us or get back to us about the availability of new 17" PB BTOs? Have you heard of any being made available yet?

 

[oingoboingo]

12" combodrive with extra ram... ordered 19 days ago...

Hmmm...well I might just walk into AppleCentre Chatswood on Monday and buy one off the shelf, and have them fit extra RAM while I wait Don't worry...exactly the same thing happened with my PowerMac G5. I ordered mine only a few weeks after they were announced at WWDC, yet G5s were available in shops for a few weeks before I got mine delivered (and then it was DOA...GRRR!!!).

I won't order from direct from Apple again if I can help it (obviously not much choice with heavily customised BTO configs, but for things like RAM and AirPort cards, the dealer can do that in the shop).

 

[coattaker]

Selling IT has always been on my mind since I did computing science at uni...but I can't say that the work environment (and I guess pay????) are too inspiring. It will be very interesting to see WHEN Apple open their first store (Sydney for sure ) who they hire, because if its the best and the brightest of the Apple Resellers that could be pretty interesting. The way I see it is that 6 months prior to opening Apple US should go undercover to the resellers to see who is up to scratch and have that list handy for when those people turn up to interviews...

Apple stores would be very cool even for just the free wifi...

I agree Apple stores down under would be very cool, but I'm sorry to disappoint you dude... it ain't happening any time soon. Australia means nothing to Apple. We'd all love it to, but the fact is it doesn't, plain and simple. They might open one store in Sydney at some point but it'd take them a fair while to co-ordinate anything further than that.

Apple Australia has about 200 staff. The machines aren't made here, the prices aren't set here, there is a distribution centre in Frenchs Forest and that's about it. And if you think the resellers' staff are thick, try talking to an Apple rep. We just ignore them because they are no use to anybody. All they're interested in is making sure 80% of machines are sold with extended warranty and 40% with .Mac.

And to build on a long-standing debate... the resellers know nothing about product releases or plans until they are announced. We read the rumors sites same as you. I'm sure everyone knows that. But Apple Australia don't know anything until it's announced either. Makes you wonder what they're here for really...

The thing about the Australian market is that there is one! We have a small population but we are a tech-hungry country and per capita it's quite a large market. No-one in the Apple world is catering to that and Apple Australia aren't about to, so someone or something else will have to step in and do something. That is what I mean about the landscape changing over the next few years. Not all the resellers are just puppets... watch this space.

 

[coattaker]

Coattaker can you tell us or get back to us about the availability of new 17" PB BTOs? Have you heard of any being made available yet?

I'm not sure at this stage. The 17s are hard to get hold of anyway, CTO or not, but I don't think we've had a CTO on one as yet to check. I'll see what I can find out tomorrow though.

And again about the reseller line... there is one, but it's only the line we use to contact Apple about any stock issues. Most of the time they don't know and it's easier to look on their website. In Internet Explorer of course

 

[aswitcher]

I agree Apple stores down under would be very cool, but I'm sorry to disappoint you dude... it ain't happening any time soon. Australia means nothing to Apple. We'd all love it to, but the fact is it doesn't, plain and simple. They might open one store in Sydney at some point but it'd take them a fair while to co-ordinate anything further than that.

Hey we are at least on the map with Jobs. One of the iMacs was "Bondi" blue after all


Yeah, no rush to get here but I think a store in Sydney in 3-5 years is plausible. Even sooner if they really scale up the aggressive store front roll out world wide.

Apple Australia has about 200 staff. The machines aren't made here, the prices aren't set here, there is a distribution centre in Frenchs Forest and that's about it. And if you think the resellers' staff are thick, try talking to an Apple rep. We just ignore them because they are no use to anybody. All they're interested in is making sure 80% of machines are sold with extended warranty and 40% with .Mac.

Stats and quotas. Mmm. Not very inspiring. And Applecare is just such a rort at its cost.

The thing about the Australian market is that there is one! We have a small population but we are a tech-hungry country and per capita it's quite a large market. No-one in the Apple world is catering to that and Apple Australia aren't about to, so someone or something else will have to step in and do something. That is what I mean about the landscape changing over the next few years. Not all the resellers are just puppets... watch this space.

Well to my mind money talks and if a reseller can give me a solid deal that helps deflate some of Apple's high prices then I am all ears. Since resellers can do little about supply speeds it comes down to dollars and service, and we have already talked about the service issues which aren't changing anytime soon. Unless of course theres even more free training, and Australian MacWorld , and of course free wifi

 

[aswitcher]

I'm not sure at this stage. The 17s are hard to get hold of anyway, CTO or not, but I don't think we've had a CTO on one as yet to check. I'll see what I can find out tomorrow though.

Well that would be great. Because your part of a franchise I assume you will only have limited intel on what Nextbytes access to 17s has been but anything would be welcome...

And again about the reseller line... there is one, but it's only the line we use to contact Apple about any stock issues. Most of the time they don't know and it's easier to look on their website. In Internet Explorer of course

Oh. That seems to fit my experience. No wonder the resellers I have dealt with look so disinterested in ringing Apple to help me out...they already know its going to be a waste of time...

 

[coattaker]

Well to my mind money talks and if a reseller can give me a solid deal that helps deflate some of Apple's high prices then I am all ears. Since resellers can do little about supply speeds it comes down to dollars and service, and we have already talked about the service issues which aren't changing anytime soon. Unless of course theres even more free training, and Australian MacWorld , and of course free wifi

Competitive pricing is somewhat of an oxymoron in the Apple world. It is true that the gross profit markup for dealers on machines is 6-8%. Work out how much that is on a PowerMac G5... or on an eMac, heaven forbid. Of course there are bonuses for meeting the attach rates mentioned earlier, but they get lifted higher as time goes on.

In the end it comes down to service and support as in many other industries these days who operate on tiny margins. And to my mind a customer who has spent several thousand dollars is entitled to some service and support. Problem is they will expect the dealers to bend over backwards and it simply isn't cost-effective to do so. The end result is the customer is often unhappy. This is why in any franchise or reseller business model, everyone loses. And the poor schmuck in the middle gets screwed over from both sides.

So as I have said, the way business is done needs to change, and it will. The resellers for the most part do the best they can, and a chain as large as Next Byte benefit from having a solid infrastructure in place, but it simply can't and won't continue more than a few years more. I can't say any more than that, and I've already said too much.

Goodnight

 

[aswitcher]

Competitive pricing is somewhat of an oxymoron in the Apple world. It is true that the gross profit markup for dealers on machines is 6-8%. Work out how much that is on a PowerMac G5... or on an eMac, heaven forbid. Of course there are bonuses for meeting the attach rates mentioned earlier, but they get lifted higher as time goes on.

Yeah Applecare and .Mac are almost all clear profit given the quality of Apples hardware should automatically give it 3 years warranty, and .Mac is dirt cheap for them (especially here where many offers of discounts seem to be irrelevant).

In the end it comes down to service and support as in many other industries these days who operate on tiny margins. And to my mind a customer who has spent several thousand dollars is entitled to some service and support. Problem is they will expect the dealers to bend over backwards and it simply isn't cost-effective to do so. The end result is the customer is often unhappy. This is why in any franchise or reseller business model, everyone loses. And the poor schmuck in the middle gets screwed over from both sides.

Ouch. Well I see many Apple resellers around so there must be some money in it...

So as I have said, the way business is done needs to change, and it will. The resellers for the most part do the best they can, and a chain as large as Next Byte benefit from having a solid infrastructure in place, but it simply can't and won't continue more than a few years more. I can't say any more than that, and I've already said too much.

Goodnight

Goodnight. I hope this means good news for us all down the track. Maybe Nextbyte could arrange and sponsor the first Australian MacWorld sometime, even if its a one off, to get Mac fans together to see the Jobs character speak.

Look forward to seeing what you can find out about the 17s

 

[abc123]

Hmmm...well I might just walk into AppleCentre Chatswood on Monday and buy one off the shelf, and have them fit extra RAM while I wait Don't worry...exactly the same thing happened with my PowerMac G5. I ordered mine only a few weeks after they were announced at WWDC, yet G5s were available in shops for a few weeks before I got mine delivered (and then it was DOA...GRRR!!!).

I won't order from direct from Apple again if I can help it (obviously not much choice with heavily customised BTO configs, but for things like RAM and AirPort cards, the dealer can do that in the shop).

I’ve never had a problem with ordering from apple directly. Granted, i have not had a lot of experience but each time it has been faster than what they quoted on the web page.
2 20 gig ipods: ordered about 11pm friday night, arrived tuesday.
12” powerbook + ram: i don't remember the dates but very efficient. not only that but apple went to a lot of trouble to get the paperwork for the edu discount and to verify that my mother knew I used her credit card. This included emailing, calling when we were slow getting around to replying, and then calling several more times when my brothers failed to pass on the message. Honestly I’ve been nothing but impressed with the level of customer service that they’ve shown me. My brother orders from apple more regularly than me and he has never complained either.
Maybe we've just been lucky.

 

[mateybob]

Yeah Applecare and .Mac are almost all clear profit given the quality of Apples hardware should automatically give it 3 years warranty,

imo there are two big myths when it comes to apple and one of them is their "superior" build quality... i can only speak from my own experience but in 15 years ive owned 3 pcs and 3 apples.. all 3 apples had numerous hardware problems involving lots of downtime and money spent for me... judging by the current dead pixel, wobbly case, shoddy keyboard problems on current laptops i hear about so much on these forums i dont think things have really improved...
(one of the pcs needed a fan replaced - it was down for a day and didnt cost me a thing)

 

[mateybob]

Maybe we've just been lucky.

id say youve been VERY lucky

 

[aswitcher]

imo there are two big myths when it comes to apple and one of them is their "superior" build quality...

My view is if they charge a far amount more for their high end machines, ie PBs, then it should not only be nice to look at but should also have the quality of parts, assembly and fucntion to reflect that cost. I guess I will soon see for myself ...no really, anytime now....

 

[mateybob]

well yeah its something apple fanatics and apple themselves love to go on about but im just saying from my experience its completely untrue...
btw the other big myth is that macosx is more stable than windows

 

[oingoboingo]

My view is if they charge a far amount more for their high end machines, ie PBs, then it should not only be nice to look at but should also have the quality of parts, assembly and fucntion to reflect that cost. I guess I will soon see for myself ...no really, anytime now....

The PowerBooks are made all made by Taiwanese or Chinese contractors, often in the same factories as notebooks from various well known x86 manufacturers. Hard drives, optical drives, LCD panels, system RAM, video RAM, battery cells, GPUs and cooling fans are all commodity items sourced from the same manufacturers that are used in x86 systems, and often these are even exactly the same model. You are paying extra for Apple's R&D effort and excellent industrial design, no doubt. And the quality of construction is better than the AU$1999 Dell notebook special of the day. But make no mistake...a lot of the premium you pay for an Apple machine is pure margin. It's been repeated over and over again on these forums...Apple won't get into the cut throat low-end desktop market, because there is hardly any margin to be made. Apple is a company whose business model survives on selling boutique systems in relatively small numbers, at relatively large profit margins.

My feeling is that the overall reliability of Apple's hardware is not any different from the hardware of any quality x86 vendor. I realise that the plural of anecdote is not 'data', but in my own personal experience, I have had a dead-on-arrival 1.6GHz G5 PowerMac, a replacement G5 PowerMac which had a faulty video card (currently being fixed), a 12" PowerBook whose battery module didn't mount flush with the rest of the chassis from day 1, and a close friend whose 17" PowerBook's backlight flickered on and off when the screen was moved, from about 2 weeks after he bought it (and it took almost 3 weeks to be repaired). And this is after only using Macs since late September 2003, ie: not even one year yet.

So basically all 3 Apple machines I have owned have had a fault (one DOA, one needing a key component replaced, and the other with a minor cosmetic/structural defect). Previously, I had used x86 systems since 1988. In that time, I had a very elderly IBM PC/JX (4.77MHz 8088, 256KB RAM) blow its video chip, and a Dell Inspiron 4100 have its IBM Travelstar hard drive go bad (and it was replaced on-site by a Dell technician the next day). And that's it. Oh yes, sorry, I did buy a faulty stick of RAM once, but my Athlon XP system at the time crashed immediately after I installed it, so I took it out and got my money back from the retailer.

I'm not trying to say "Apple hardware is all crap and all x86 hardware is great"...no doubt I've had a run of bad luck with my Apple experiences to date. But don't think that the extra you pay for an Apple machine is all going into extra build quality or superior components. It's mostly going into covering higher R&D costs, and of course pumping up large profit margins. That gets even harder to swallow when you go and read your warranty agreement...it's crap. 90 days phone support and 1 year return to base? Please...as I mentioned in another post, a AU$299 Lexmark laser printer comes with a better warranty, not to mention everything Dell sells.

So...enjoy your PowerBook when it arrives. And take bloody good care of it! And take everything you read here with a large grain of salt (and please feel free to include my comments in that too)

 

[oingoboingo]

My view is if they charge a far amount more for their high end machines, ie PBs, then it should not only be nice to look at but should also have the quality of parts, assembly and fucntion to reflect that cost. I guess I will soon see for myself ...no really, anytime now....

This got me thinking...it's a little like choosing a car and paying a little extra because you like the styling, the handling, or the performance, but not necessarily for the reliability and build quality. I bought a Peugeot 206 about 18 months ago, because I loved the way it handled around tight corners, the way you could throw it over speed bumps and barely feel it, the way it was perky in traffic but didn't suck down fuel like the space shuttle, and the way it looked! Peugeot charges a premium on the 206 which is a little above similarly sized cars like the Echo or the Jazz (or even the Corolla). However, I also knew when I bought it (from doing a lot of web research, as well as my own touchy-feely tests) that the build quality and the mechanical/electrical reliability of the 206 wasn't up to the same level as its Japanese competitors, and its warranty is one of the crappiest in the industry (2 years).

When I think about it, it kind of reminds me of the PowerBook. Handles well, decent performer, looks great, and comes at a premium price. However, reliability probably isn't above industry averages, and the warranty falls below par.

Sorry for the crappy analogy...the 206 and the PowerBook are the same colour