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Hirth

macrumors newbie
May 11, 2009
29
0
no one deserves that kind of money.....

That judgement cannot be rightfully made by anyone other than the one paying it and the one receiving it.

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Absolute excess! Shame on Apple.

Nonsense. These executives have earned every single dollar that they receive in value to the company and the shareholders. There is no such thing as excessive compensation. Compensation that is mutually agreed upon by the one paying and the one receiving is fair. Those are the only two parties who should have any say at all in the matter.
 

iluvbeer99

macrumors member
Apr 2, 2010
92
40
I hate these insane stock grants. 1000000 shares = 400 million dollars, at least.
Steve always said to make great products and then make profit. To reward people for a 100 billion year send signals like the mid 80 Apple. To maximize profit before making great products.

So history will repeat. We will see a couple of great Apple years before they will start to fall like old Apple.

As a shareholder I don't like that they dilute my shares. Apple should do like HTC. When HTC gave shares to their employes they bought the shares from the market = the stockholders shares where not diluted. HTC also at the same % bought back shares and burnt them.

So HTC rewarded both the employes and the shareholders.

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.

Ive is great. But he should love Apple, not getting money from Apple.

He can't get the same job, creative freedom as he have at Apple. Let him try at Dell, or some company like that. As soon Ive starts to demand different screws on the machines he is toast.

Instead of burning hundreds of millions of shareholders money, they should use the money for something meaningful. Like Steve Jobs church or something like that. Lets make this a religion and tax deductible.

They have 929 million outstanding shares. 1 million extra shares dilutes it 40 cents a share. Keeping these guys around adds WAY more then 40 cents a share to apples value.

As a shareholder you should be happy with this
 

wacomme

macrumors 6502
Jun 21, 2009
293
34
None. There are probably many thousands of other people there who can do just as good a job at assembly for the current pay, and 7 workers quitting wouldn't effect AAPL stock price in the least.

On the other hand, if a bus full of Apple's current senior execs went off a cliff, the company's stock valuation would tank by far more than the cost of their options. (Thus they probably aren't even allowed to all travel together.)
Then again, maybe some fresh blood would do wonders for Apple. These people are not gods. They can be replaced - cheaper and better - isn't that the Capitalist way?
 

scoobydoo99

Cancelled
Mar 11, 2003
1,007
353
It's called Capitalism. You get paid your market value.
We can all say capitalism is unjust, but even the poorest people in the US would not be as rich as they are without it.

Not true. U.S. workers are getting progressively "poorer" and the disparity between the working class and the elite continues to expand. From Kiplinger:

"Using data by the U.S. BLS, the average productivity per American worker has increased 400% since 1950. One way to look at that is that it should only take one-quarter the work hours, or 11 hours per week, to afford the same standard of living as a worker in 1950 (or our standard of living should be 4 times higher). Is that the case? Obviously not. Someone is profiting, it’s just not the average American worker."

I'll say that capitalism is the most efficient way to bring wealth to the economy and it's up to individuals to decide what they will do with it to make the world a more just place.

Capitalism is a very efficient way to bring great wealth to a small, elite group of people who control the corporate and political structure in this country.

Simple supply and demand determines the relative value of executive pay. Apple would certainly pay less if it could--they're not idiots. But for now, the cost of retaining their current team intact is steep, but they're willing to pay it.

When you say "Apple", you refer to those who control the company and determine compensation. These are people who are in the "club", the 1%, the elite, whatever you want to call them. The Board of Directors are wildly rich themselves. The "system" is well entrenched. The elite take care of their kind. They certainly would NOT pay less. Their intent is to harvest as much money as possible for their cohorts.

When people use the term "redistribution of wealth", that generally connotes an INVOLUNTARY redistribution. Who is doing the redistributing as you've used the term? And what is being "redistributed"?

Resources, output, wealth. When a worker labors to build something, that labor produces a product or service that is then sold at a profit. He trades his labor for a wage. Someone other than the worker then reaps the majority of the benefit (money) from that labor. When I referred to redistribution, it was my intent to convey that.

Second, I can never understand why people always have to hate on people who make good. The liberal lie is always "that anyone who makes or has a certain amount of money( and it always seems to change,...is it a million is it 500k, is it 200k,) must have gotten it on the backs of others, probably stepped on their necks on the way, or some other ill-gotten way."

It's not a question of people "making good" or being productive and successful. It's a question of what constitutes an appropriate reward for that success. Why $100M per year? Why not $1B per year? $10B per year? Where does it stop? Do you think that if corporate execs could get all the non-executive workers to work for $20K per year and pay themselves $1B per year that they would do it? Would you then say, "Well, it's a free market, you choose to work for $20K per year - don't hate on those who are more successful" ?

.....do you hear the OWSers complaining that a movie star makes 20,000 times the sound editor?

I'm going to think this one over. My first reaction is that it's a bit different than corporate compensation. The movie star is effectively freelance and works for the studio just like the sound editor. I would say my argument holds against a studio head. The movie star is paid based upon what the corporation values their service at (i.e. how much box office they can expect by having that name on the marquee). The movie star is not a "business" in the sense that they don't use other people's labor to make their "product" - they just sell themselves.

--

Finally, I appreciate reading everyone's opinions. I don't want to personally criticize your perceptions. I think that our culture has indoctrinated most of the populace in this concept of the "American Dream" - work hard and persevere, and with talent and determination, you too can be rich. Without something like that to believe in, how could the people be kept under control and made to trudge to work every day? They look forward to finally being able to get that new car or paying off that credit card or taking that vacation. Personally, I think it is a sad deception.

Let me leave you with one last thought:
What if we continued to compensate the "high performing" executives very well, say $1M per year (a substantial sum to most people), and used the rest of the corporate profits to double the salaries of all the other workers, then used any remainder to pay for infrastructure and social improvements. (I'm sure some will see "communism" and high taxes here, but read on) With this structure, workers would share greatly in the success of the corporation, parents could go from 2-income to single income households, allowing a parent to stay home with the kids if they wanted. The extra money going for the common good could vastly improve health care. Our schools could provide top-notch educations to ALL kids. The list of benefits goes on. Remember, all that extra money comes from the hundreds of millions of dollars that is currently being hoarded by individuals who have more homes, cars, jets, and private islands than they can ever use. And we would all still have those $1M jobs to aspire to.
 

wacomme

macrumors 6502
Jun 21, 2009
293
34
That judgement cannot be rightfully made by anyone other than the one paying it and the one receiving it.

----------



Nonsense. These executives have earned every single dollar that they receive in value to the company and the shareholders. There is no such thing as excessive compensation. Compensation that is mutually agreed upon by the one paying and the one receiving is fair. Those are the only two parties who should have any say at all in the matter.

I disagree on both accounts wholeheartedly. I believe your viewpoint lacks any sense of humanity.
 

DCJ001

macrumors 6502a
Dec 12, 2007
521
253
Why nothing for Ives?

Ives is probably the most important member of the team, he must be making the most money, surely.

Jonny's last name is Ive (singular), not Ives (plural).

With regard to Jonny appearing to not have receiving a big pay incentive:
There were only two people from Apple’s senior leadership team for whom Apple did not disclose stock grants on Friday. One is Jonathan Ive, the company’s senior vice president for industrial design, whose position at the company does not trigger S.E.C. rules requiring public disclosure of stock awards.

The other person is chief executive Timothy D. Cook.
 
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burmguy

macrumors regular
Oct 7, 2011
143
0
these guys are not being paid for their "hard work", they are being paid not to jump ship. which with Jobs gone they were probably planning on doing. Some of these changes youve already seen. Im not saying Apple will go down the drain but you will begin to see a steady decline over the next several years
 

wacomme

macrumors 6502
Jun 21, 2009
293
34
Not true. U.S. workers are getting progressively "poorer" and the disparity between the working class and the elite continues to expand. From Kiplinger:

"Using data by the U.S. BLS, the average productivity per American worker has increased 400% since 1950. One way to look at that is that it should only take one-quarter the work hours, or 11 hours per week, to afford the same standard of living as a worker in 1950 (or our standard of living should be 4 times higher). Is that the case? Obviously not. Someone is profiting, it’s just not the average American worker."



Capitalism is a very efficient way to bring great wealth to a small, elite group of people who control the corporate and political structure in this country.



When you say "Apple", you refer to those who control the company and determine compensation. These are people who are in the "club", the 1%, the elite, whatever you want to call them. The Board of Directors are wildly rich themselves. The "system" is well entrenched. The elite take care of their kind. They certainly would NOT pay less. Their intent is to harvest as much money as possible for their cohorts.



Resources, output, wealth. When a worker labors to build something, that labor produces a product or service that is then sold at a profit. He trades his labor for a wage. Someone other than the worker then reaps the majority of the benefit (money) from that labor. When I referred to redistribution, it was my intent to convey that.



It's not a question of people "making good" or being productive and successful. It's a question of what constitutes an appropriate reward for that success. Why $100M per year? Why not $1B per year? $10B per year? Where does it stop? Do you think that if corporate execs could get all the non-executive workers to work for $20K per year and pay themselves $1B per year that they would do it? Would you then say, "Well, it's a free market, you choose to work for $20K per year - don't hate on those who are more successful" ?



I'm going to think this one over. My first reaction is that it's a bit different than corporate compensation. The movie star is effectively freelance and works for the studio just like the sound editor. I would say my argument holds against a studio head. The movie star is paid based upon what the corporation values their service at (i.e. how much box office they can expect by having that name on the marquee). The movie star is not a "business" in the sense that they don't use other people's labor to make their "product" - they just sell themselves.

--

Finally, I appreciate reading everyone's opinions. I don't want to personally criticize your perceptions. I think that our culture has indoctrinated most of the populace in this concept of the "American Dream" - work hard and persevere, and with talent and determination, you too can be rich. Without something like that to believe in, how could the people be kept under control and made to trudge to work every day? They look forward to finally being able to get that new car or paying off that credit card or taking that vacation. Personally, I think it is a sad deception.

Let me leave you with one last thought:
What if we continued to compensate the "high performing" executives very well, say $1M per year (a substantial sum to most people), and used the rest of the corporate profits to double the salaries of all the other workers, then used any remainder to pay for infrastructure and social improvements. (I'm sure some will see "communism" and high taxes here, but read on) With this structure, workers would share greatly in the success of the corporation, parents could go from 2-income to single income households, allowing a parent to stay home with the kids if they wanted. The extra money going for the common good could vastly improve health care. Our schools could provide top-notch educations to ALL kids. The list of benefits goes on. Remember, all that extra money comes from the hundreds of millions of dollars that is currently being hoarded by individuals who have more homes, cars, jets, and private islands than they can ever use. And we would all still have those $1M jobs to aspire to.

Good idea.
 

eye

macrumors 6502a
May 24, 2009
572
2
Detroit
This attitude is why the poor stay poor and the rich get rich.

The attitude that it is moronic to believe that success is only based on either lucky breaks or hard work?

Sounds like I just realize the world is not that simple. No idea how me believing in reality keeps anybody rich or poor.
 

Shanpdx

macrumors 68030
Sep 24, 2008
2,534
346
Blazer town!
that is a lot of money while selling two year old iPhone 3GS for $375.

common guys focus on the job not on the money.

i live in apple eco system and iCloud not even ready for prime and yet it is released to the public.
 

burmguy

macrumors regular
Oct 7, 2011
143
0
furthermore people are complaining apple is donating money, helping poor etc? Why would they? Their almighty god didnt give a **** about anyone else in this world so thats the same direction they will go
 

scoobydoo99

Cancelled
Mar 11, 2003
1,007
353
Say who? Who awarded these shares? Apple? Who exactly is "Apple"? Let's just say it like it is: the boys "awarded" themselves, 'cos who the hell is to say they couldn't, now that the minder don't mind!

Occupy Cupertino anyone?

Cheers, sir! I expressed almost the same thing in my post #106 before I saw this. Well said.
 

Hirth

macrumors newbie
May 11, 2009
29
0
I disagree on both accounts wholeheartedly. I believe your viewpoint lacks any sense of humanity.

Economic worth has nothing to do with humanity.

Personal worth has everything to do with humanity. The worth of a person from that perspective is infinite.

Those two perspectives are often in tension.

From my viewpoint, a government that meddles too much in how the economy runs is inherently dehumanizing because it restricts the rights and freedoms of the individual in the name of the "common good".

In my opinion, the rights of the individual outweigh the needs of the many.
 

CalWizrd

Suspended
Jun 21, 2011
385
1,637
NYC/Raleigh, NC
... From my viewpoint, a government that meddles too much in how the economy runs is inherently dehumanizing because it restricts the rights and freedoms of the individual in the name of the "common good"...

How refreshing to hear a voice of reason among the hysterical.
 

ricardobeat

macrumors member
Sep 23, 2008
61
13
And rich people are footing the bill. What good is it to become successful if 40% of your wealth is taken away by the government and spread around to people who are not a successful as you.

yadayadayada. 10% of 30k has an *astoundingly* different utility than 10% of 10 billion. Flat rates don't make any sense - they burden the poor while leaving the rich untouched. Taxes must be skewed towards the lower end, otherwise the gap will only increase. It's the natural way, just like two men on a desert island competing for the only source of food will certainly kill each other - there's a reason this thing we live in is called "civilization".

People like you are to blame for the state of things. There is plenty of resources for everyone, and no justification for allowing excessive concentration of wealth. The $400m that you would "miss" from taxes on a $1b fortune will benefit other people way beyond anything it could do for you.
 

Kaibelf

Suspended
Apr 29, 2009
2,445
7,444
Silicon Valley, CA
How very enlightening! The Apple BOD is nothing but a bunch of do-nothing stooges, starting with that stuffed up loser Gore. All BODs are like that.

Well, hell, I'm sure YOU know more than ANY of them. How about this. You work your way up to that level, redistribute the wealth of the company to everyone in it, and then enjoy your place on the list of worst corporate managers in history when the company collapses because the most talented people have basically no incentive to do better than the most lazy. That'll show them all!
 

ricardobeat

macrumors member
Sep 23, 2008
61
13
In my opinion, the rights of the individual outweigh the needs of the many.

You do realize that the right to personal property is just an agreement brought by human conflicts in the last couple thousand years, and a controversial one, right?

I was going to continue, but this is just the stupidest thing I've heard in recent weeks. Whatever.
 

DrDomVonDoom

macrumors 6502
May 30, 2010
314
0
Fairbanks, Ak
These guys are making exhorborant amounts of cash, and I understand some people say "For just doing their jobs" but its not just that, its for a bit of their freedom. I should assume there is some contractual agreement amongst these exec's to stay on board, or certain legalities might pop up? I should think certinatly so. So it is not simply throwing money at executives. Its saying, you will do nothing other than serve this company, so help your wallets.

This is most likely a knee jerk reaction to Steve's passing, these gentlemen are the highest tier of Jobses spirit basically, his mentorings are deeply engraved in these men and are therefore valuable for both their experiance and vision.

Now I would not call these men, the super ultra 1% elite.

When we are talking of the 1% we are talking about men of far greater wealth. The Rockefellers, Bilderburg group types. Whatever these guys have is chump change compared to the REAL wealth in America and elsewhere.

I doubt any of these guy's have a billion. Once you have that kind of money, you move effin mountains. Millionaires come and go, but a BILLIONAIRE. Thats scary kinds of money. You could loose a few million with a drug habit and a bad summer. I know most of us couldn't even imagine having a million, but. Thats the way it is.


BTW does anyone on this forum HONESTLY have a million on hand? Just wondering, lol.
 

dccorona

macrumors 68020
Jun 12, 2008
2,033
1
I think it's a ridiculous sum of money to be paid out to people who are essentially just doing their jobs.

the executives at motorola were "just doing their jobs" too...apples in considerably better shape. They've been doing an exceptional job
 

wacomme

macrumors 6502
Jun 21, 2009
293
34
Economic worth has nothing to do with humanity.

Personal worth has everything to do with humanity. The worth of a person from that perspective is infinite.

Those two perspectives are often in tension.

From my viewpoint, a government that meddles too much in how the economy runs is inherently dehumanizing because it restricts the rights and freedoms of the individual in the name of the "common good".

In my opinion, the rights of the individual outweigh the needs of the many.

Again, we're on opposite sides of the fence. The government perspective aside, humanity has everything to do with the many, a view of one's worth being what you can do to help others. Economic gain isn't the reward. Helping other people IS the reward.
 

chuckd83

macrumors regular
Jul 12, 2010
177
15
When we want to go sit high on our moral horse, we should not look at capitalism. It is the collective greed of the entire western world and ones' conviction of his believe over another's that drives injustice on this planet. If we have THAT conversation, THEN I'll say, yes, I'm a hypocrite, I don't give 95% of my income to feed starving kids in somalia so I can be equal with the average world citizen. And that's why I'm not going to go sit on my moral horse and instead I'll say that capitalism is the most efficient way to bring wealth to the economy and it's up to individuals to decide what they will do with it to make the world a more just place.

Incorrect. Economic systems do not just appear out of thin air. They are developed over time based on basic and typically philosophical premises. Capitalism, for example, is based on liberalism developed by John Locke - the idea that individual liberty should be held above all other. This, however, is immoral to certain religious convictions such as Christianity. Luke 6:27-31, for example:
"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them."

Based on this, it is immoral (for Christians anyway) to strive for individual liberty and rights. Or any sociopolitical or economic system that encourages the same. You are correct that it is an individual and collective greed that drives injustice in the world, but capitalism encourages it.
 
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