Apple biggest jobs exporter ?

Discussion in 'Apple, Inc and Tech Industry' started by Xymox1, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Xymox1 macrumors newbie

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    #1
    I donno it seems to me Steve Jobs did more to export jobs and damage our economy then any one person/company by making all the Apple products in the last 10 years in china at foxconn.

    Seriously how many billions have gone to China from the US for Foxconn to build Apple products ? 10 Billion ? Im talking about ALL Apple products made in the last 10 years. None have been made here so all that money and all those jobs went overseas.

    Just the shear dollars bothers me.

    I think this makes Apple one of the most damaging companies to our economy right ? I look at Apple as a threat really. Sure Apple made profit ( because of Foxconn low prices ) and sure investors made money again because of the profit margin created by China manufacturing,,, but I donno,,, that seems seriously bad for the economy.. Exporting jobs / money is never good for us..
     
  2. simsaladimbamba

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    #2
    What about all the other big US tech-companies doing the same? But since this is your first post and thread, I doubt that your want to talk about that and you have an entirely different agenda.

    Yes, Apple is bad. We are doomed. And probably not willing to pay thrice the price for our electronics if they were manufactured in the good old country by workers getting good wages (which would be at least 1000 USD per month, probably closer to 2000 USD). Hmm.
     
  3. Xymox1 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #3
    Well first off I am here for a discussion of the issue. I own Apple. Is this a subject that is banned from discussing ?

    Well Apple has to be the largest consumer company based in the US to have products manufactured by Foxconn. I suppose HP and Dell might be up there but as everyone knows Apple dwarfs them in sales dollars. So it makes sense that Apple sends more money to china then any other company in the US ? Obviously exporting more jobs then any other company ?

    I believe this is a accurate assessment ?

    If thats true then buying Apple products is bad for the US economy.

    I wonder how much of the price of a iPhone goes to china ?

    Look if im incorrect, please correct me.

    Where else would I discuss this ? This seems the correct venue ? I would hope that a Apple forum is run by people who allow freedom of expression ?
     
  4. snberk103 macrumors 603

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    #4
    It's just that this issue gets raised on a regular basis, and it gets old and tiring refuting the base assumptions. It is a complicated issue, that has to do with jobs, economics, corporate fiduciary duties to their shareholders and not any particular nation, free-trade obligations, and other geo-political considerations.

    So, when I say... please do some searching on MR for other threads on the same topic .... this is simply because I have said pretty much all I want to say on the topic already. Until you have something new to add to the conversation, I am just not interested.

    So feel free to post on this topic... I don't want to limit that ability. But I probably won't participate - though I'll check to see if you have something new to add.

    But, if you truly want to explore the subject then why don't you find one of the more current past threads, read through it and understand both sides. And then if you want to continue the discussion add your thoughts to that thread.
     
  5. Xymox1 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #5
    Ah, well forgive me for posting a new thread then.

    I did some searching and im not having any luck finding a thread on the specific topic of Apple being a major exporter of jobs and money.

    Could you, if you dont mind, provide a link or 2 for me ?

    I will review all previous discussions on this and post back here should I have any issues I feel I still have.
     
  6. thewitt macrumors 68020

    thewitt

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    #6
    First off, these jobs were not exported. They never existed in the US.

    Secondly, Foxconn is NOT Apple. Foxconn is an electronics assembly company with factories in a number of different countries.

    Apple uses several electronic assembly companies, and if a US based company wants to bid and win their business, I'm sure Apple would be thrilled to have a site building their products located in the US.

    All you need is to be cost competitive. It takes 150,000 workers to do this at one Foxconn facility. I've read "experts" say it would just require automation and robots to be cheaper than Foxconn in the US.

    I say go for it. Invest the money in a factory and bid on the business.

    Bring those jobs to the US...
     
  7. Xymox1, Oct 5, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012

    Xymox1 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #7
    Now I know there are heated arguments on this kinda issue. And for me to bring up that Apple is anything but a revered sacred icon here in this forum could bring up heated tempers. Lets try and stay civil and have a unbiased discussion on this without posting from emotions.

    Well indeed this is my point exactly. Apple never created these opportunities in the US. Well said..

    Im very aware of Foxcon, they make a huge number of companies products. This is also my point. Its a huge issue. You add in HP, Dell and well, every electronics compnay in the US and Foxconn represents a HUGE issue. Im not in any way singling out Apple. However I think Apple *might* be Foxconn's largest client ?

    Good point. While most of it is china, your right our jobs and money go to other countries as well.

    But see this would cost more because its cheaper to pay impoverished workers mostly in china. So your not willing to pay more for something made in the USA then ?

    But of course the stock holders, who only care about profit, not those impoverished workers, make the real decisions.

    Interesting your saying that its at least 150,000 jobs that were lost mostly to china.

    Why would I make a factory to do this when I can just take advantage of cheap labor in other countries ? Its all about profit really right ?

    Well you have helped me make my point. Apple is about profit and if your into profit only then Foxconn is the way to go.

    And away go the jobs and money overseas...

    You are right. Someone needs to make a stand and start manufacturing in the US. And we as consumers need to spend more for that product if we want to help the economy and get more people working in manufacturing.

    Apple is not doing this.

    So anyone with any hard numbers on how many billions go to China Foxconn facilities from Apple ? Im curious.

    I wonder how many H1B visa people work at Apple ?
     
  8. Xymox1 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #8
    I found some numbers that are pretty accurate to start trying to figure out how much money Apple has given China...

    "Apple is second only to the oil company Exxon in the huge amounts of cash that it sucks in every year. Apple made $40 billion profits in the year ending June 2012, on a revenue of $149 billion. That put it just behind the oil giant's net profits of $45 billion, and gave Apple a nice healthy profit margin of 27 per cent.

    Apple has sold 84 million iPads, close to 200 million iPhones and 350 million iPods. It temporarily had more cash reserves than the US government, $76 billion, in June 2011."

    The next question, which is much harder, is how much per iPhone/iPad/iPod goes to china.. What part of the 73% is manufacturing costs.

    Ive also been reading that the true number of people involved in manufacturing Apple products is more like a million people when you take into account all the smaller companies that make sub assemblies, parts, etc. And again most of these are in China.

    I dont know about all this. "Apple is second only to the oil company Exxon in the huge amounts of cash that it sucks in every year" This has to mean that it must be the number 1 client for Foxconn and maybe a #1 sender of money to china. These are just huge numbers.

    I wonder if this is the biggest source of cash for china ? I mean maybe $75 BILLION is a LOT of money per year...

    Im very interested in any links someone has on this that shows anything different. Also if someone has a more direct credible number for the real amount of money paid to Foxconn I would be interested in that.

    I donno. From my research its looking like a huge number of people overseas are employed making Apple products and huge amounts of money is going overseas..

    I would like some links to better understand Apple's rationale and it would be cool if someone explained to me why this is good for our economy.
     
  9. snberk103 macrumors 603

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    #9
    Go to "Advance Search". Search on "+Apple +China +Jobs +America".

    I got 18 hits, maybe not all of them entirely relevant, looking back just 6 months.

    1) Apple has a fiduciary duty, under law, to attempt to maximize the value of the company for the benefit of its shareholders - not to employ Americans.
    2) Steve Jobs stated in his bio that the big advantage that Apple finds in China is not the cost savings, but the flexibility to retool an assembly line days or weeks, not weeks and months. He also said that the US doesn't educate enough technical engineers.
    3) Those "impoverished" Chinese workers are among the highest paid factory workers in China. They literally line up around block for a chance to work at Foxconn factories.
    4) Apple is an international company. Should the jobs in China need to be relocated, why should they go to Americans? Why not Canadians (who can build cars cheaper than Americans due to health care coverage)? Or the Germans (who can build cars cheaper because they have adopted a higher degree of robotic automation)?. Or the Brazilians - oh, wait... they already have a Foxconn plant.
    5) Why should should Apple's non-American customers pay more for their products just so that American workers are employed?
    6) If you go the legislative route, you are tossing out many many international trade treaties that protect global free-trade agreements that benefits the USA. The USA is still a global manufacturing exporter (perhaps still the 'the' global manufacturing exporter). Trade treaties protect that trade.
    7) It's legal for Apple to do so. It's a free world.

    That is just a summary of the threads I've participated in. I'm sure there are many many others.
     
  10. thewitt macrumors 68020

    thewitt

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    #10
    Yes, businesses are in business to earn a profit.

    Sorry that goes against your socialist utopia, but none of those have survived in the real world.

    Profit is what allows Apple to pending the hundreds of millions a year it does IN THE US.

    Profit is not a dirty word, in spite of what the politicians on the left keep saying.
     
  11. snberk103 macrumors 603

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    #11
    Actually, just for the sake of accuracy, there have been very few 'pure' socialist societies/communities started in the past 100 years or so. One of the successful ones still exists - the Kibbutz movement in Israel. They work on the "From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs" principle. To be fair, most Americans confuse the dictatorships that cloaked themselves in the 'socialist' mantle with the real thing. A dictatorship is a dictatorship regardless of what it calls itself.

    In my part of the world several successful socialist utopian communities were founded in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Ironically, they were broken up the rich industrialists (who 'coincidentally' also happened be in the Provincial government at the time, and got to make up laws as they saw fit) who saw these utopian societies as a threat to their profits. These societies didn't consume much, and they paid well.... which freaked the industrialists out because if this idea actually caught on .... well, they freaked out.

    Heck, before contact with the Europeans - the entire west coast of BC, Alaska, Washington was teeming with socialist utopian communities. The populations numbered in the 100,000s - if not more. Again, it was the industrialists that destroyed that culture. Read up 'Potlatch' if you want to know what freaked the industrialists.

    Don't get me wrong... I happen to like living in a free market economy. It suits me fine. But, I also happen to know what I'm comparing it to. A little education can go a long way.
     
  12. Medic311 macrumors 68000

    Medic311

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    #12
    there are plenty of examples of corporations that are quite successful without putting profits ahead of everything else.

    ever hear of REI, Wegman's, Whole Foods...just to name a few.

    REI is a great example to debunk your "if profits don't come first, it's socialism" attitude. do yourself a favor and look them up
     
  13. Xymox1 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #13
    Thanks for the search tips. I am a tad to tired right now to respond properly to this. However rest assured I will.

    We agree on socialist utopias however :) and how most people have no idea what socialism actually is.

    I appreciate everyone's responses. I will respond with my own thoughts on this tomorrow.

    One thing that really bothers me about US companies is how they have to pay more attention to stock holders then customers. I remember when you listened to what the customer wanted and focused on their requirements. Now companies focus on what the stock holders want and the customer usually ends up with a product thats more about profit then on quality.

    But all this about socialist utopias and stock holders is off topic. My focus is simply -is Apple the largest exporter of jobs and money to china-. Im not interested in why they do it, im after pretty much a yes or no. Im after numbers, like how many people are employed making Apple products overseas and hom much money flows to China.

    Yes your points do have meaning, but they more describe a plague of capitalism gone bezerk with a lack of morals and standards. Ultimately your right, I will be connecting Apple to this issue as the poster child of this plague and worship of profit like its GOD. What matters are profits, not people. Its evil. Real live evil to put the stockholders obsession with profit at any cost before the livelihood of US workers.

    Its pretty darn evil to be forced to make a decision to outsource to china simply for more profit during times when many families are hurting and desperate for jobs.

    Indeed Apple appears like a perfect poster child for this horrible modern practice of outsourcing just to profit more for the stock holders.

    More in the next few days.

    So far my concerns just continue to deepen around my owning Apple products. I dont think I like supporting this horrid immoral unethical business model. For me it makes things worse that they are the best at this in the world.
     
  14. boss.king macrumors 68040

    boss.king

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    #15
    Good article so far, I haven't managed to read it all yet. The one thing that struck me the most was Jobs quote about the jobs not coming back. He's absolutely right. America is not going to get those jobs because no one wants to do them, especially not for the sort of pay the Foxconn workers get (even when adjusted to minimum wage), and even if they did find people to fill all the positions, the cost of the phones would become so high that only a handful of people would buy them anyway, and so Apple would lose out to HTC, Samsung, etc, who would continue to produce their phones overseas at a fraction of the cost.
     
  15. thewitt macrumors 68020

    thewitt

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    #16
    I was one of the founding members of the Recreational Equipment Coop that became REI. If you think profits are not what motivates them you are sadly misinformed.
     
  16. snberk103 macrumors 603

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    #17
    Says who? Can you give some examples? Since you started this thread by referencing Apple - let's assume you mean to include Apple in this list. In which I case I absolutely disagree with this statement. Apple has shown that they actually don't really care about their stockholders. If they were beholden to their stockholders they would have been paying dividends prior to this year, and they would be paying a much larger dividend.

    As well, Apple has shown that it providing to their customers exactly what they want. Apple can't make the stuff fast enough. Their customers have lots of choices, most of it cheaper. I believe that proves that Apple is paying very close attention to what their customers want, and providing it to them.
    You haven't proven that. The jobs in China are new jobs - they did not exist somewhere else and then 'moved'. If the US (for example) had had the capacity to assemble those units, it would have been through automation - which only needs a fraction of the workers.

    But it gets more complicated than that. The Foxconn jobs are new jobs. They are assembling parts that are coming from a variety of places, including the US (which has a lot of the chip fab facilities globally). Plus, there are a lot of American jobs involved in Apple products. The initial designing, prototyping, and engineering are done in the US, and these are very highly paid jobs. The marketing effort that goes into selling Apple products is immense, and mostly well paid as well. Once the product starts shipping in quantity, then there are 10s and 100s of thousands of people employed moving and shipping the products, selling the products, supporting the products, etc etc.

    These are all 'new' jobs because they did not exist until the Apple started making these huge quantities of product.
    How about how much money then flows from the workers back to the US as they buy imported goods? And why this obsession with China? Why not Thailand? Or Taiwan? Or Singapore? Where many of the parts that are assembled in China come from. Why not Brazil, where Foxconn has started a factory using (gasp!) Brazilians to assemble products?
    Why not the investment banks that started selling nothing, called it 'exotic derivatives' simply because they could mark it up and turn a profit. At least Apple sells a tangible product. Why Apple? They don't dump thousands of gallons heavy crude into a city's drinking water supply and call it the cost of doing business. They don't shoot 34 striking platinum miners.
    Corporations work within the law (in theory, at least). If you don't like the law that says that the owners of the company (the stockholders) get to decide if the company should take the owner's money and give it away, then blame the law. There are, in fact, corporations who have the mandate to give away their money. They are called "Charities".
    .... just baseless rhetoric. Back up your assertions, eh?
     
  17. Solomani macrumors 68030

    Solomani

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    #18
    Who are you quoting? Or do you not have a clue how to quote sources properly? And what low-quality journalism are you citing that equates the phrase "sucks in every year" to the revenues and profits made by American businesses? The Socialist Economics Journal? The Anti-Capitalist Weekly? Marxism Today?

    Using phrases like "sucks in every year" to equate to the revenues/profits made by American corporations reeks of political bias (against capitalism.)
     
  18. vvswarup macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    You can't export something when it never existed in the first place. As someone pointed out, those jobs never existed in the US so Apple did not export them.

    Also, Apple isn't damaging to the economy. On the contrary, they are a big help to our economy. Apple hires tons of engineers, and they were one of the few companies that were hiring during the recession. Apple has built plenty of retail stores in the US. Those jobs required draftspeople, construction workers, etc. Also, Apple has paid out $5 billion dollars to date to App Store developers. And we've barely scratched the surface of what mobile apps can do. Apple has spawned a whole new subindustry in the software development space-mobile solutions. And these jobs pay very well.

    Also, many of the components in the iPhone are designed by American corporations. Qualcomm designs the 3G chips. That puts money in the pockets of those engineers at Qualcomm. Corning, an American company, makes Gorilla glass.

    Let's not forget the transportation/shipping jobs that Apple creates. I mean, really. Fairies don't deliver iDevices to our hands. Shipping companies like UPS ship them to us.

    So no, Apple isn't the biggest jobs exporter. First of all, you can't export something that never existed in the US in the first place. Also, Apple has helped many existing industries and has spawned new ones that the jobs created in these industries far outweighs the "loss" of ASSEMBLY jobs.
     
  19. senseless macrumors 68000

    senseless

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    #20
    My Apple II was made in California.


    QUOTE=thewitt;15972957]First off, these jobs were not exported. They never existed in the US.

    Secondly, Foxconn is NOT Apple. Foxconn is an electronics assembly company with factories in a number of different countries.

    Apple uses several electronic assembly companies, and if a US based company wants to bid and win their business, I'm sure Apple would be thrilled to have a site building their products located in the US.

    All you need is to be cost competitive. It takes 150,000 workers to do this at one Foxconn facility. I've read "experts" say it would just require automation and robots to be cheaper than Foxconn in the US.

    I say go for it. Invest the money in a factory and bid on the business.

    Bring those jobs to the US...[/QUOTE]
     
  20. Apple Corps macrumors 68030

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    #21
    Well Xymox1, in post #3 you state you own Apple (stock?).

    Why do you own Apple stock?
     
  21. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #22
    I don't know if I agree that Apple is the biggest jobs exporter, but for most of the existence of the company Apple products were manufactured in America. I don't think it was until around the turn of the century (and the arrival of Tim Cook) that Apple moved manufacturing overseas. The job of manufacturing Apple products in America certainly did exist and it certainly was moved to China.

    Apple's products used to be manufactured in the U.S.. I don't think they moved the jobs to China because the U.S. workers all decided to walk off the job because they didn't want to do it. ;)

    From what I've read the increase in labor costs would be minimal in the grand scheme of things.
     
  22. Apple Corps macrumors 68030

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    #23
    Xymox1 - where are you - have you rested up enough - why do you own Apple stock?
     
  23. thewitt macrumors 68020

    thewitt

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    #24
    Yes Apple use to employ 1100 people in a manufacturing facility in California. At the time they also employed around 800 people in an office complex.

    They now have over 50,000 domestic employes and approximately 300,000 dedicated subcon assembly workers.

    Want to pick nits, fine.

    Apple did not export the high volume assembly jobs oversees, but they did close down the automated assembly line in California when they could no longer compete on cost or ability to manufacture new products in a timely manner.
     
  24. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #25
    Ignoring the 20-some-odd years that Apple manufactured products in the U.S. is a pretty big nit. Sorry to ruin your hyperoble.
     

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