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There is a strong anti-global warming consensus in the US simply because, the whole issue was brought up by the liberal, hippie, tree-hugging democrat, Al Gore. the whole issue is disputed by right-wing conservatives purely for political reasons.

When your pockets are being lined by huge Amerikan oil companies, you know, the companies that sell the product that is causing the problem, then of course you want the issue disputed and buried, preferably in the holes left from the mining and pumping.

You really have to be blinded by hate not to understanding that removing carbon that has been sitting in the ground for millions of years and dumping it into the atmosphere is going to have some adverse affect.

First, I think global warming is real, and evidence suggests it was caused by man.

Having said that, Al Gore has gotten magnitudes richer off supporting AGW than anyone opposing it. There is so much more money supporting global warming in grants, contracts, special funds, etc, that the line of reasoning you are using is ridiculous.

Your last statement is not logical at all. Thats not some automatic conclusion, its a result of extremely complicated modeling. There has been more carbon in the atmosphere than currently. Partisans demonize their political adversaries.
 
Orly? According to... you? And while certainly being less radioactive, even the ore is itself cancerogenous. Anyway, until we manage to successfully (read: viably) extract uranium from sea water (which we eventually will), theres nothing eco-friendly about it.

Um, no. Not according to him. According to basic physics and chemistry.

Nuclear is actually *very* eco-friendly. Over the course of a single decade, existing coal power plants release more radioactive materials into the environment than every nuclear plant ever made (including Chernobyl, TMI, and Fukishima). If you up that to two decades, you get to include all nuclear weapon testing, and both of the bombs dropped on Japan.

Nuclear is the safest power generation system yet developed, even besting solar for lowest deaths/TWh generated. The volume of nuclear waste generated is so incredibly small that storing it is easy. The problem is that people, such as yourself, are so scared of the 'nuclear menace', that nobody wants the fuel shipped or stored near them (and by 'near', I mean in the same state). This is largely due to a large generation of people who grew up in the depths of the Cold War, where nuclear war and nuclear winter were drilled into everyone's heads as real and imminent threats. It's also partly due to the fact that the media likes a good scare, since it helps them sell eyeballs to the advertisers.

The right thing to do with nuclear fuel isn't to use it once and throw it away, it's to use it, feed it to breeder reactors which will re-enrich it, and use it again until it simply can't be reused any more. At that point, it will be virtually inert. The other right thing to do is to switch to passively safe designs like the pebble-bed reactor mentioned earlier in the thread, rather than the decades-old designs which require active management to ensure safety.

Also, I believe the term you were looking for is 'carcinogenic', the one you came up with sounds like someone who is turned on by cancer. :eek:
 
Um, no. Not according to him. According to basic physics and chemistry.

Nuclear is actually *very* eco-friendly. Over the course of a single decade, existing coal power plants release more radioactive materials into the environment than every nuclear plant ever made (including Chernobyl, TMI, and Fukishima). If you up that to two decades, you get to include all nuclear weapon testing, and both of the bombs dropped on Japan.

Nuclear is the safest power generation system yet developed, even besting solar for lowest deaths/TWh generated. The volume of nuclear waste generated is so incredibly small that storing it is easy. The problem is that people, such as yourself, are so scared of the 'nuclear menace', that nobody wants the fuel shipped or stored near them (and by 'near', I mean in the same state). This is largely due to a large generation of people who grew up in the depths of the Cold War, where nuclear war and nuclear winter were drilled into everyone's heads as real and imminent threats. It's also partly due to the fact that the media likes a good scare, since it helps them sell eyeballs to the advertisers.

The right thing to do with nuclear fuel isn't to use it once and throw it away, it's to use it, feed it to breeder reactors which will re-enrich it, and use it again until it simply can't be reused any more. At that point, it will be virtually inert. The other right thing to do is to switch to passively safe designs like the pebble-bed reactor mentioned earlier in the thread, rather than the decades-old designs which require active management to ensure safety.

Also, I believe the term you were looking for is 'carcinogenic', the one you came up with sounds like someone who is turned on by cancer. :eek:

Using reasoning is highly illogical in this world. You sir, are nothing but a paid hack of the far right wanting to give grandma cancer. Why do you want to kill the planet? The kids? And hamsters? Have you no shame? Nuclear plants kill billions of people, including dogs and trees. Grow up, this is the future. Solyndra is now, it's progressive. It's just the right thing to do. Haven't you read the manifesto? :rolleyes:
 
Waste of time and land...

Yes, harnessing free power from the sun is such a waste of time.

I think what TMar meant was that Solar Power today is extremely inefficient and costly (hardly "free power"). The amount of power that solar panels produce relative to the light they take in (assuming photo-electric cells) is a very small percentage.

Further, if you have a solar panel and a shadow (or leaf) falls on even part of it, then the whole panel is basically out until the obstruction or shadow is removed.

Finally, the cost of the panels today is extremely excessive. Assuming none of your panels have any issues you do not recover your investment for fifteen years, which is approximately the life the panel. So the minute you recover your investment, you are replacing the panels. I know that some folks say that the price of energy is going to go up, and I believe it will, but my dollar today is also worth more than the same dollar fifteen years from now.

I keep wanting to get solar power for my roof, but every time I price it out I find it is just costs way too much -- especially considering if I move in fifteen years my whole investment is pretty much blown since i won't recover it in the sale. If I do not move, then I have to cross my fingers that none of my panels have issues in fifteen years. The only cost-efficient option would be to buy a house that already had the panels installed. Otherwise I am simply placing a bet that the price of energy will increase faster than the rate of return on investment and betting that none of the panels I purchase will break down during their fifteen-year life.

The concern I have for Apple is that they are doing this in a region that could be prone to a hurricane in the next fifteen years. That could completely wipe out their solar array. That would also mean that wind power is out of the question, though it is cool to imagine a wind turbine that could withstand a hurricane and produce power during the event.
 
What about the Senftenberg Solarpark in Germany which, last I heard, produces over 150MW?

Look up capacity factor. 150 MW is the nameplate capacity which is a BS variable.

Say solar has a capacity factor of 20%. Apple's datacenter requires 100 MW 24/7 for all servers to stay online. You'd have to build a 500 MW nameplate capacity solar farm to get that 100 MW.

In reality the capacity factor is probably much lower. And in reality, grid energy storage tech sucks so if the sun is blocked for a couple days, that whole datacenter will go down anyway, even if it was powered off a 10000 MW solar farm.
 
Only if you pretend that we know how to deal with the waste, which is what most people are doing.

There's no pretending involved. We *do* know how to deal with the waste. The fact that we can't do it right now is a problem of politics and FUD, not of technology or engineering.

Using reasoning is highly illogical in this world. You sir, are nothing but a paid hack of the far right wanting to give grandma cancer. Why do you want to kill the planet? The kids? And hamsters? Have you no shame? Nuclear plants kill billions of people, including dogs and trees. Grow up, this is the future. Solyndra is now, it's progressive. It's just the right thing to do. Haven't you read the manifesto? :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, solar is great, for filling in peak demand during the day, but it has issues which make it unsuitable for baseline power needs. You can't rely solely on a power source which has operational conditions you can't control.
 
You sound almost as self-deluded as that other guy who denies that global warming has been strongly been influenced by humans, the only difference is that you don't watch Faux News. You might as well keep your tin-foil hat on because the lizard people are trying to read your thoughts.

You're right, I won't read your references as I don't succumb to bad science. Even with a scientific consensus that agrees that the climate has gotten warmer because of human intervention, you will still find a crank or two that denies it. The same goes for any "controversial" scientific issue that followers of a book written by a bunch of dead guys with beards blindly follow.

As for the issue being a political issue, it's only a political issue that conservatives took to appease their evangelical base.

So, your response, in a nutshell, is the internet equivalent of "La la la la la - not listening to you" ?

Congrats on writing off a bunch of highly qualified climatologists, astrophysicists, experts in the Earth sciences and other notable scientists of multiple nationalities who have *no ties whatsoever* to the oil companies or any highly funded political groups or "think tanks" (which you'll find lots of the pro "man made global warming" brigade being members of fwiw), because you've decided that you're right and you'll be damned if anything as inconvenient as evidence is going to sway your opinion on the matter.
 
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Nuclear is actually *very* eco-friendly.

LOL! That's one of the scaring pro-arguments that are being repeated over and over again. Nuclear power is not eco friendly. The lobby never mentions figures for the mining which triggers immense CO2 exhaust. Not to mention the inhuman conditions in this business in countries like Namibia. (That's a country far, far away. It's not in the USA, no.) Plus the waste you have put somewhere and take care of it which consumes power for cooling, too.
 
i cant imagine how much energy that data center is consuming, but alleviating some seems like a good idea
 
.... The problem is that people, such as yourself, are so scared of the 'nuclear menace', that nobody wants the fuel shipped or stored near them (and by 'near', I mean in the same state). This is largely due to a large generation of people who grew up in the depths of the Cold War, where nuclear war and nuclear winter were drilled into everyone's heads as real and imminent threats. It's also partly due to the fact that the media likes a good scare, since it helps them sell eyeballs to the advertisers.....

I think the "fear factor" comes from stupidity employed in early nuclear plants for waste disposal. My mother-in-law's cousin works in Idaho where she helps supervise an effort to extract buried rods from the ground so they can transport them to a safer place.

Back when they first started "safely" disposing of this nuclear waste decades ago, scientists assured them it was safely being disposed of. But scientists (as in any century) only know as much as their current experiments have taught them despite the over-confidence that many of them speak with. So today, they are cleaning up all this nuclear waste and disposing of it again in a safer manner. However, we will never know how many cases of cancer were triggered due to contaminated ground water and such. Its pointless to dwell on it, it just makes sense to proceed with caution when dealing with anything so dangerous.

I like some of the alternatives you suggested in your original post. But I think you misunderstand why many folks don't want this stuff housed in their own backyard. One unexpected earthquake or eruption could put this stuff directly into contact with ground water and then we'd have no way of stopping its flow into communities. People just don't want to take the chance.

Interestingly, I have been following the work of a scientist named Dr. Randal Mills recently (see Blacklight Power's website). The guy has a theory which extends basic Newtonian mechanics to the molecular level (something Einstein always felt would be found). Anyway, his theory predicted the accelerating expansion of the universe years before anyone observed it (or won a nobel price for it) and also predicted that the Higgs Boson did not exist (something billions of dollars in research to find it is now proving by its failure to locate it). Quantum physicists hate the theory and constantly try to discredit because it is a threat to their livelihoods and research dollars. Unlike Quantum Theory's standard model, Mill's theory actually predicts things (and has been right every time) rather than adding yet another variable to an equation when proved wrong in order to fit an observed curve like Quantum theory. Anyway, Mills' theory explains the energy observed in what some have given the misnomer of "Cold Fusion" with what he refers to as fractional ground states of Hydrogen and the energy released when transitioning to smaller fractional states. If Mills is right, you will eventually get your iPhone delivered full charged from the factory, powered by as much hydrogen in a single mL/CC of water and never have to recharge it for the life of the device.

I would personally like to see Apple throw some of that $80B into researching this theory. If the Mills theory continues to predict what we keep observing without all so many questionable and outlandish explanations, then I think there is something to it. It would mean enough power for the entire human race pretty much forever.
 
i cant imagine how much energy that data center is consuming, but alleviating some seems like a good idea

I would agree for sure, but burning down a wooded area and scorching the already depleted topsoil seems like a ridiculous way of going about it. We're talking about a company with tens of billions in cash reserves - how hard would it have been to buy up some disused industrial wasteland, convert that to a solar farm, and then connect it to the data centre by way of the much less environmentally damaging method of digging a single trench in order to run a few power cables from the solar farm to the data centre?

I guess when you have Al Gore on your board all you really care about is "being seen to be green"
 
Clearcutting a forested parcel for solar panels is not being green, Apple! Why not outfit the roof with solar panels first, and then build wind turbines throughout the parking lot that is already cleared.

If you go to GoogleMaps you can still the forest standing across the street. Is it pristine old growth? Of course not. Nonetheless, there are way better ways to build solar than clearing land, and burning it no less.

Roofs should ALWAYS be outfitted first before clearing open space!
 
GO Solar

Odd that there are so many here that just seem to want to make noise without having any knowledge about how solar energy works or what Apples full plans are. Yes it would be nice if they were putting them on the roof instead of in a field. Since Apple hasn't revealed their plans why does everyone assume that they aren't doing this in addition to using up some surrounding land. Before jumping on the band wagon how about seeing what they actually do instead of assuming the worst.
I really don't know where all this anti solar is coming from. It seems like these days everyone just wants to run down renewable energy sources. Talk of using more nuclear even though no one has come up with a solution to storing the waste securely. Nuclear may appear to be clean and cost effective but I doubt many take into account the pollution generated mining and processing uranium, the cost of storing dangerous radioactive materials, the potential cost of an accident or act of terrorism, and the cost of decommissioning the plant once it needs to be retired.
You hear all this noise coming out of certain political parties trying to say incentives for renewable energy are a waste of tax payer dollars while at the same time refusing to cut tax breaks to oil companies. Doesn't anybody have a problem with this?
 
Further, if you have a solar panel and a shadow (or leaf) falls on even part of it, then the whole panel is basically out until the obstruction or shadow is removed.

Not really, look up "bypass diode". A panel can be partitioned into zones, and a shadow will only affect the zone(s) it falls on, not the whole panel.


Look up capacity factor. 150 MW is the nameplate capacity which is a BS variable.

Yes, the nameplate capacity is measured "downhill with a tailwind", but actual delivered power is much more than your 20% figure. My house array has nameplate 8.5 kW rating, and has delivered over 7 kW - in spite of the fact that I have the panels at 5° and 10° tilts rather than optimum.

I doubt that Apple has any intention of powering the facilty solely through the panels.

The goal is more likely to reduce consumption during the mid-summer afternoon peaks when the power costs the most and the grid is under the most strain. It's good for Apple, and good for the grid.
 
Yes, the nameplate capacity is measured "downhill with a tailwind", but actual delivered power is much more than your 20% figure. My house array has nameplate 8.5 kW rating, and has delivered over 7 kW - in spite of the fact that I have the panels at 5° and 10° tilts rather than optimum.

You obviously don't understand what a capacity factor is. Your peak generation is not your capacity factor. Look it up

I doubt that Apple has any intention of powering the facilty solely through the panels.

I doubt so too since that would basically guarantee if there's a storm people won't be able to access their data.
 
Well, this is pretty cool.

And to all of you saying it's a waste of time or money or space... do you have a better idea? What's your big contribution to the world? Would you rather put a big 'ol coal burning power plant there? That's more efficient that solar, since some of you are concerned about the inefficiencies of solar panels.

New technology is never perfect. But we have to use and improve it to get anywhere.

And anybody who's actually investigated the science of our world will realize that our environment (which is not a buzzword, but refers to the actual world we have to live in and depend on) is totally screwed. And it's not getting much better any time soon. Bury your head in the sand all you want. As time goes by and you get older, our world will fall into greater and greater hardship and chaos.

So let's grumble about Apple doing something green. That's productive.

The title of Al Gore's book, "An Inconvenient Truth", really applies here. Anything that causes the slightest bit of inconvenience for someone; anything that requires someone to consider the ramifications for the planet or other human beings is considered lame and non-macho. People who hate the environmental movements do so because they're inherently selfish and think that if they have the money to do something (like to afford gasoline for a fast car that gets only 10mpg), that they have the right to do something which society should not restrict in any way. These are also people who look at the negatives of the short term (spending money now to reduce pollution or greenhouse gases) instead of the long term (creating a habitable planet for our children and grandchildren.)

Therefore they use the excuse that if a new technology such as solar or windmills has any disadvantages whatsoever (and they all do), that we continue using traditional energy sources until those issues can be resolved....a recipe for doing nothing. Even Robert Kennedy, Jr. was opposed to windmills in the Atlantic because it would supposedly "destroy" his views from Martha's Vineyard. IMO, that made him a complete hypocrite.

And then there are those who choose not to believe in global warming (the same types of people who chose not to believe that smoking causes lung cancer and other diseases.) But the fact is that anything we do to prevent or reduce global warming also provides us with cleaner air, which provides all kinds of health benefits. Are we really happy with our kids breathing crap?

I will criticize Apple in one regard: they should not have used fire to clear the land. That's probably the fault of their contractor, but they should have managed that.
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A334 Safari/7534.48.3)

Maybe this: http://www.gizmag.com/worlds-largest-solar-power-tower-plant-now-on-line/11590/

Rui
 
As the other guy said, batteries. This is typical. Or were you trying to imply that any situation sans 24-7 sunshine is a failure?

The sun goes down even on hardcore, government funded solar power projects in the middle of deserts. Or at least, that is what I've been led to believe. >_>

I'd say batteries for something this scale is highly unlikely..

Given the scale, I think this will be a molten salt solar array, that uses mirrors to direct light to a container that holds salts that heat up to a molten state, then produce steam to turn turbines.. The molten salt could, in some cases, continue to produce power into the night, or over a cloudy/rainy day following a sunny one. This sort of solar energy production is being shown to be much more efficient than PV solar cells.

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Would have been better to just put the panels on top of the data center, and save some land.


Given the scale, I think this will be a molten salt solar array, that uses mirrors to direct light to a container that holds salts that heat up to a molten state, then produce steam to turn turbines.. The Molten salt could, in some cases, continue to produce power into the night, or over a cloudy/rainy day following a sunny one. This sort of solar energy production is being shown to be much more efficient than PV solar cells.

I doubt an array of this type as a rooftop installation would be in any way practical.. That isn't to say that they won't use a combination of light-tubes, skylights, and PV solar panels on the roof, just that given the scale I doubt their planned solar equipment shown for the property being discussed is roof-top-friendly..
 
Solar panels don't really get hot. They are just warm.

There already are hybrid solar panels that both generate electricity, and make use of the heat for heating water.. This also helps keep the PV Panels cooler making the more efficient. (PV solar panels drop in efficiency as they get hot)
 
You obviously don't understand what a capacity factor is. Your peak generation is not your capacity factor. Look it up.

Actually I do, but consider it unlikely that Apple cares about the capacity factor as normally defined.

If the goal is merely to offset usage during peak load/cost times, the actual generation during those peak times is what is important - not the generation normalized for a 24 hour day.
 
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