Apple Care not really worth it in Europe?

[Phil A.]

Are you sure about this? I have just read the legislation but it's really late and I might have missed it, so can you please reference it?

Legislation is posted here http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:1999:171:0012:0016:ENDF

It does state:-

Unless proved otherwise, any lack of conformity which becomes apparent within six months of delivery of the goods shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery unless this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity.

But it does not have any text that I see where the onus is on the consumer to prove a fault was already present at purchase after a period of six months. This is an important distinction.

This site also says the same thing:-

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1677034/Two-year-warranty-EU-law.html

This is from the second article you linked to

After six months, the burden of proof switches to the buyer and it is they who must then show a fault is due to some inherent problem, something that can be almost impossible in all but the most straightforward cases.


Seems pretty clear to me

 

[Artimus12]

I already corrected myself in the post before yours.
Apple gives a special 12months warranty. Not by EU law, but by their terms of services.

Apple's 12 month warranty is nothing special! All electrical goods sold for cash in the UK come with a minimum 12 month "limited" warranty - limited liability meaning "manufacturer defective" or "premature failure".

Whether it's honoured or not depends on the expected durability of the goods in question! And since Apple products cost such a huge premium over lesser manufacturers' similar products, any court in the land would insist Apple honour the full 12 months ...and Apple knows this! so they attempt to appear generous with their warranty, when they're really just covering their own backs! They make huge profits based on their reputation for reliability, and they can't have that image tarnished by increasingly bad press in any region of the world that has a popular press.

 

[steve62388]

It's precise and correct. I've provided you with links.

Please directly reference that point in the legislation. I'm willing to eat my words but at this stage I have read it twice and provided you with a direct quote. You have supplied nothing.

 

[AFEPPL]

UK is described as above - everything is 12months, no ifs, no buts.

 

[steve62388]

From Meisters link:

"But, after six months in most EU countries you also need to prove yourself that the defect already existed on receipt of the goods, for example, by showing that the defect is due to the poor quality of materials used."

It says most EU countries, ie that statement is is not based on the EU legislation at all but possibly local laws. But the same article states 'This 2-year guarantee is only your minimum right and national rules in your country may give you extra protection. Remember that any deviation from EU rules must always be to the consumer's benefit'. Therefore this legislation trumps local in this specific case scenario (if it exists).

Interestingly the actual legislation also states that:-
Whereas it is appropriate to limit in time the period during which the seller is liable for any lack of conformity which exists at the time of delivery of the goods; whereas Member States may also provide for a limitation on the period during which consumers can exercise their rights, provided such a period does not expire within two years from the time of delivery; whereas where, under national legislation, the time when a limitation period starts is not the time of delivery of the goods, the total duration of the limitation period provided for by national law may not be shorter than two years from the time of delivery.

There is nothing in the EU Directive which mentions it's the consumer's responsibility to prove fault after six months.

I could be wrong, there might be additional legislation passed as these politicians are want to do but my research does not indicate so.

I have read the Directive twice, I'm pretty sure this 'six month' statement does not exist, it's possible I missed it (these things happen), nobody else has managed to point out where this statement is made in the legislation. Please do so.

 

[steve62388]

This is from the second article you linked to

After six months, the burden of proof switches to the buyer and it is they who must then show a fault is due to some inherent problem, something that can be almost impossible in all but the most straightforward cases.


Seems pretty clear to me

Woah. You have misinterpreted the article. That is referring to UK law, we are discussing EU legislation. The full quote is as follows:-

Under UK law, buyers in England and Wales can get a partial refund or full repair up to six years after the purchase was made (five years from discovery in Scotland). The refund should take into account how much use the customer has already had of a product. Ultimately, a county court would decide this.

However, the likelihood of getting such a refund is dramatically reduced after just six months. The reason is that for six months after the purchase, it is up to the retailer to show that a fault on an item is down to the actions or misuse of the buyer, rather than an inherent fault in the product.

After six months, the burden of proof switches to the buyer and it is they who must then show a fault is due to some inherent problem, something that can be almost impossible in all but the most straightforward cases.

From the same article:-

The EU directive in question is 1999/44/EC. The full wording is contained here (open the word documtent and scroll to page 7) but the important bit is this: 'A two-year guarantee applies for the sale of all consumer goods everywhere in the EU. In some countries, this may be more, and some manufacturers also choose to offer a longer warranty period.'

As with UK law, a seller is not bound by the guarantee 'if the (fault) has its origin in materials supplied by the consumer'. But the EU rule does not require the buyer to show the fault is inherent in the product and not down to their actions.

All I'm asking for is that someone point out where in the EU legislation does it mention that after six months it's the consumer's responsibility to prove fault existed at purchase?

 

[steve62388]

Oh, just a general point for residents of England only. Non residents may have different local legislation.

If you're trying to get your Apple product repaired outside warranty then use the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 (this is an amendment to the Sales of Goods Act 1979 which includes the particular clause we are going to use). But make sure you are using the correct piece of the legislation, quote this section:-

Implied terms about quality or fitness.

(2)Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the goods supplied under the contract are of satisfactory quality.
(2A)For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances.

Now the point about this is whether a reasonable person would consider an Apple product of satisfactory quality if a fault developed outside of the standard Apple 12 month warranty. If it developed 5 years later probably, if it developed 1 month outside, most definitely not. A reasonable person would consider an Apple product to be a premium product and the price reflects this.

The whole thing about nothing being set in stone and the talk of 'reasonable persons' is that when law is drafted there are too many scenarios to encompass them all and sometimes they have to be tested in court. If you're a reasonable person then ask yourself if you think it's fair you have to pay for an Apple repair when your device breaks down. An example on the opposite side of the spectrum is if you bought a yo-yo from Poundland and it broke after 2 months would you really care? You would not succeed in this case.

I have used the Sale of Goods Act to get an iPhone replaced and the screen on a rMBP replaced, both outside of warranty (the rMBP was 12 months outside). On both occasions when telephoning Apple and visiting an Apple store my initial application was declined. Don't give up at the first hurdle, this is just to weed out the uncommitted. I was fully prepared to take the matter all the way to a Magistrate's Court, you have to be too. I was actually looking forward to arguing my case against some highly paid hot shot Apple lawyers, but the reality is it is not worth Apple's time and money to do so and they would not risk a judgement against them.

Here is the text of my letter to Apple regarding my iPhone, you may use it as you see fit. It's brief and to the point and shows that I am aware of my rights:-

Dear Sir or Madam,

Order Number: [redacted]

Tech Support: [redacted]

On the [date redacted to prevent personal identification] I placed an order for an iPhone 4 Black 32Gb-GBR through the Apple Store. I received it on the [date dedacted].

On the [date redacted] the unit developed a severe fault with the LCD screen, no longer displaying anything except the backlight. I have attempted a hard reset and a complete phone restore to no avail. When plugged into mains power it appears to cycle on and off repeatedly.

The Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 states that ‘…goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances’. I believe a reasonable person would expect a £599 mobile telephone to have a life longer than 14 months.

As you are in breach of contract I am entitled to have the iPhone repaired or replaced at no additional charge.

I would request that you will confirm that you will do this within the next seven days upon receipt of this letter.

I also require you to confirm whether you will arrange for the iPhone to be collected or will reimburse me for the cost of returning it.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,
[redacted]

 

[Meister]

Woah. You have misinterpreted the article. That is referring to UK law, we are discussing EU legislation. The full quote is as follows:-

Under UK law, buyers in England and Wales can get a partial refund or full repair up to six years after the purchase was made (five years from discovery in Scotland). The refund should take into account how much use the customer has already had of a product. Ultimately, a county court would decide this.

However, the likelihood of getting such a refund is dramatically reduced after just six months. The reason is that for six months after the purchase, it is up to the retailer to show that a fault on an item is down to the actions or misuse of the buyer, rather than an inherent fault in the product.

After six months, the burden of proof switches to the buyer and it is they who must then show a fault is due to some inherent problem, something that can be almost impossible in all but the most straightforward cases.

From the same article:-

The EU directive in question is 1999/44/EC. The full wording is contained here (open the word documtent and scroll to page 7) but the important bit is this: 'A two-year guarantee applies for the sale of all consumer goods everywhere in the EU. In some countries, this may be more, and some manufacturers also choose to offer a longer warranty period.'

As with UK law, a seller is not bound by the guarantee 'if the (fault) has its origin in materials supplied by the consumer'. But the EU rule does not require the buyer to show the fault is inherent in the product and not down to their actions.

All I'm asking for is that someone point out where in the EU legislation does it mention that after six months it's the consumer's responsibility to prove fault existed at purchase?

There is a difference between the wording of the law and the interpretation and application by courts.

I can only speak for germany and here the word "warranty" translates into the word "Gewährleistung" and this term is interpreted and applicated by the courts exactly as I explained above. I posted one link in german, but there are plenty of other links about this topic also in german.
http://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewährleistung

The one link I posted in english also mentions that the 6 six months rule is implemented by the legal system of other EU countries.
The directive 1999/44/EG mentions the 6 six months rule in article 5 (3).

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31999L0044

 

[steve62388]

There is a difference between the wording of the law and the interpretation and application by courts.

I can only speak for germany and here the word "warranty" translates into the word "Gewährleistung" and this term is interpreted and applicated by the courts exactly as I explained above. I posted one link in german, but there are plenty of other links about this topic also in german.
http://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewährleistung

The one link I posted in english also mentions that the 6 six months rule is implemented by the legal system of other EU countries.
The directive 1999/44/EG mentions the 6 six months rule in article 5 (3).

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31999L0044

Okay, well that's fair. I can't read German, and whilst each member country of the EU may have their own local legislation the EU directive is as a minimum base. I am not familiar with other states local law only England, but I think we now agree(?) the EU Directive itself does not have a clause regarding that it is a consumer's responsibility to prove a fault was present at purchase after six months. The best advice to give people on that particular point is to check your local laws.

EDIT FOR CLARITY: Regarding Article 5(3) I had posted that clause earlier in the thread so am aware of it, but it only states if a fault develops within six months it is considered to have been present at time of purchase, not explicitly stating the reverse.

 

[Meister]

but I think we now agree(?) the EU Directive itself does not have a clause regarding that it is a consumer's responsibility to prove a fault was present at purchase after six months. The best advice to give people on that particular point is to check your local laws.

EU Member States are not allowed to change the EU directive unless it is in favor of the customer, hence if Germany has a six months rule, the EU directive must have a rule that disfavors the customer even worse. Also the german wikipedia article claims that the 6 months rule is EU wide. It then quotes Article 5 (3).

I understand your point but I take it that Article 5 (3) implies this rule, otherwise it wouldn't even mention a 6 months period and every german law page on the internet in german would be wrong.

 

[Cox Orange]

How long is apple obliged to repair or replace my device if it ist malfunctioning? I already have to years with my macbook pro retina and the first year I had it replaced ( extremely yellow screen) and then some months later I had the screen replaced because it was flickering, and then asked immediately for a replacement because the new screen was also extremely yellow don't get first generation apple products kids

I'm planning on upgrading to skylake when the new macbooks with skylake get released ( getting a 250 SSD was a BIG mistake! ) , so the question is , what does Apple care really covers? I think in Europe (I live in Germany) apple is bliged by law to fix your device within 2 years of purchase date, or is it only one? I usually don't keep my computers longer than 3 years, so you think is worth to get Apple care? A friend told me that they don't cover the full costs of the reparation, say for example I drop the laptop and the screen breaks, instead they cover a % of the reparation and the reparation times are shorter, is he for real or just making stuff up?

In Germany you can buy at "Gravis" (A Mac-online-shop with real life shops as well). They have a 1-year protection-plan and a 3-year-protection-plan, that you can buy. The 3year one also repairs your products, if you yourself e.g. caused a powerstroke and that killed your Mac. But look further into it, also compare, what the small print says and how it compares to apples 3-year care.

What proves little or nothing is talking with not actually knowledge or experience of what one is talking about, not disrespect but simply talking for what you might have heard or what you might believe as to how the system works in EU fell short of reality. Many people here; living in Europe can prove you wrong easily by telling their experiences not just with Apple, but with any other retailer too.

OK, real life story to support Meister.
Here in Germany I had my car repaired. The parts had to be installed in a certain order (first install part 1, then part 2). They didn't do it in the right order and after 6months and 1 week one part was defective, because they would have had to repair the other part first. I asked a free customer-law-support and they told me, I would have to prove, that it was their work-flow and not the part failing.

Also, my sister had a broken speaker on her iPhone5 and Apple on the phone told her: "this was sold via Telecom in a phone-shop, so you have to ask them". Telecom said: "it is 1,5 year over, sorry, we can only repair it for you at expense of the parts and working hours". But that doesn't mean that Apple is not nice to people in other cases (where people report, that Apple had replaced/repaired their item after warranty ended).

Also, in Germany there is:
1 year manufacturer's guarantee (proove needed after 6 months) = Hersteller(-)garantie
2 year warranty (proove after 6 months needed and the seller has to deal with you, not the manufacturer) = Gewährleistung

For German readers also interesting, that Apple themselves state that after 6months you have to prove it yourself (in the very last sentence) http://www.apple.com/de/legal/statutory-warranty/

 

[christarp]

I had my 13inch Rmbp screen replaced after 3 years and new top case all out of warranty, screen had developed ghosting and top case was shorting out the power

Retina Macbook Pro's haven't been around for 3 years.

 

[Mr.C]

For a UK citizen at least, AppleCare is a waste of money, especially for iOS devices. AC+ essentially requires you to smash your screen or drop it in the bath for it to be worth it.

I beg to differ. Granted I've had AppleCare Plus on all my iOS devices since it was introduced but have not had to make use of it. That said it makes it much easier to sell them when upgrading and I typically get the realistic value of the device plus the cost of AppleCare back. I tend to upgrade every time there is a new iPad or iPhone and AppleCare Plus is definitely an advantage and worth it to me.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Not so in the UK.

Here 1 year means 1 year, No proving is necessary! but an Apple Store may - and I state "may" extend the 12 month warranty if the fault is caused by an obvious failure of an original component. I will be paying for Apple Care when I get closer to my 12 month expiry date because I'd rather be certain I'm covered.

You're being unrealistic.

Even the highest quality components can and do fail periodically! Things sometimes break, That's why planes crash.

Actually it IS so in the UK.

For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) above goods which do not conform to the contract of sale at any time within the period of six months starting with the date on which the goods were delivered to the buyer must be taken not to have so conformed at that date.

Things don't have to be sold with a manufacturer warranty at all, and after 6 months, with just the basic Sale of Goods Act cover, the onus is on the customer to prove the fault was faulty materials, manufacture or workmanship.

SOGA only entitles you to an automatic refund for 30 days. After that, they can offer a repair or replacement and you have to allow them to try to fix it if they want to.

However, pretty much every manufacturer supplements this with their own warranty, and the Sale of Goods Act cover does require the product to be of satisfactory quality and durable, and to work for a reasonable time, and that this time can extend to up to six years. One thing. Your contract is with the retailer. If you buy it from PC World, don't go whining to Apple after the year, it isn't their problem, and good luck with PC World. Dixons Group are notoriously crap.

Apple pretty much will take the hit and try and repair on anything that isn't blatant abuse or accident damage for the full time (up to six years), if you bought it from them, because that's how they roll. Their belief is that good customer service will get repeat custom.

If you never take your computer abroad, then AppleCare isn't really required. If you go abroad with your computer, then AppleCare is worth it. I can take my Mac to the states and walk into an Apple Store and get a repair should I need it.

 

[cambookpro]

I beg to differ. Granted I've had AppleCare Plus on all my iOS devices since it was introduced but have not had to make use of it. That said it makes it much easier to sell them when upgrading and I typically get the realistic value of the device plus the cost of AppleCare back. I tend to upgrade every time there is a new iPad or iPhone and AppleCare Plus is definitely an advantage and worth it to me.

OK, but if you pass your devices down (as I do) rather than selling them or even if you keep them for two years it doesn't really make sense. I've had to replace one of my iOS devices once at a cost of £159. If I'd bought AppleCare on all of them, it would've cost thousands with no discernible benefit.

 

[Artimus12]

Actually it IS so in the UK.



Things don't have to be sold with a manufacturer warranty at all, and after 6 months, with just the basic Sale of Goods Act cover, the onus is on the customer to prove the fault was faulty materials, manufacture or workmanship.

SOGA only entitles you to an automatic refund for 30 days. After that, they can offer a repair or replacement and you have to allow them to try to fix it if they want to.

However, pretty much every manufacturer supplements this with their own warranty, and the Sale of Goods Act cover does require the product to be of satisfactory quality and durable, and to work for a reasonable time, and that this time can extend to up to six years. One thing. Your contract is with the retailer. If you buy it from PC World, don't go whining to Apple after the year, it isn't their problem, and good luck with PC World. Dixons Group are notoriously crap.

Apple pretty much will take the hit and try and repair on anything that isn't blatant abuse or accident damage for the full time (up to six years), if you bought it from them, because that's how they roll. Their belief is that good customer service will get repeat custom.

If you never take your computer abroad, then AppleCare isn't really required. If you go abroad with your computer, then AppleCare is worth it. I can take my Mac to the states and walk into an Apple Store and get a repair should I need it.

Actually it IS as I said.

You seem to have taken it on yourself to ignore my post that you quoted and taken a completely different tangent on it. I didn't mention anything regarding a Refund after any period, let alone 30 days! I also never mentioned anything regarding the BASIC Sale Of Goods Act 1979 because various amendments mean the initial ...or Basic, as you call it... Sale Of Goods Act from 1979 has been added to.

One such amendment is the Sale & Supply of Goods Act 1994 which specifically relates to the IMPLIED term about Quality. Click the link to read it, then tell me I don't have a right to expect Apple to honour the full 12 month warranty - given the price and Implied Quality of the product. That section even goes as far as to mention that price is a part of the equation.

As for your insistence that Manufacturers don't have to offer any warranty, here's how we can easily solve this disagreement:

Go to ANY electrical store in England and find a brand new Electrical item on sale WITHOUT a 12 month manufacturer warranty included in the packaging or via online registration! or... post a link to an official site that backs up your claim. I'm willing to bet you can do neither.

12 months for any Electrical item is the minimum in the UK! Some manufacturers (third party HDD manufacturers spring to mind) offer two and even 3 years at no extra cost, so 12 months is no great shakes.

Edit: The image of the Two Year Guarantee is from my dishwasher, without Activation the guarantee is 12 months - same with the 5 year Guarantee on my Fridge\Freezer! Why don't you call one of the numbers and ask them if they have to offer any warranty at all?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Actually it IS as I said.

You seem to have taken it on yourself to ignore my post that you quoted and taken a completely different tangent on it. I didn't mention anything regarding a Refund after any period, let alone 30 days! I also never mentioned anything regarding the BASIC Sale Of Goods Act 1979 because various amendments mean the initial ...or Basic, as you call it... Sale Of Goods Act from 1979 has been added to.

One such amendment is the Sale & Supply of Goods Act 1994 which specifically relates to the IMPLIED term about Quality. Click the link to read it, then tell me I don't have a right to expect Apple to honour the full 12 month warranty - given the price and Implied Quality of the product. That section even goes as far as to mention that price is a part of the equation.

As for your insistence that Manufacturers don't have to offer any warranty, here's how we can easily solve this disagreement:

Go to ANY electrical store in England and find a brand new Electrical item on sale WITHOUT a 12 month manufacturer warranty included in the packaging or via online registration! or... post a link to an official site that backs up your claim. I'm willing to bet you can do neither.

12 months for any Electrical item is the minimum in the UK! Some manufacturers (third party HDD manufacturers spring to mind) offer two and even 3 years at no extra cost, so 12 months is no great shakes.

Edit: The image of the Two Year Guarantee is from my dishwasher, without Activation the guarantee is 12 months - same with the 5 year Guarantee on my Fridge\Freezer! Why don't you call one of the numbers and ask them if they have to offer any warranty at all?

I am fully aware of the laws, and yes you're right that nearly all manufacturers do offer at least 12 months warranty. But LEGALLY they don't have to. That warranty is always "in addition to your statutory rights" (look for that on warranty documents!) For clarification here is Apple's warranty https://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/mac-english-uk.html.

CONSUMER LAW
The Apple One-Year Limited Warranty is a voluntary manufacturer's warranty. It provides rights separate to rights provided by consumer law, including but not limited to those relating to non-conforming goods.

As such, the Apple One-Year Limited warranty benefits are in addition to, and not instead of, rights provided by consumer law.

(My bold).

Also the onus is still on the customer legally to prove a manufacturing defect after 6 months. I provided a link to the SOGA in my previous post which still applies (edit I didn't but here it is, and it includes amendments! http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54). But for clarity, this is what the CAB has to say about it http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/engla...s_-_if_you_want_a_repair_or_a_replacement.htm

Oh and for clarification the Government website about consumer rights links to the CAB so yes I think that counts as an official source. For clarification, here is the government web page that in question https://www.gov.uk/consumer-protection-rights

The implied quality is all well and good, but you still have to prove the breakdown is down to a manufacturing defect or design flaw.

 

[bushido]

Let's clarify the EU 2 year warranty myth:

Up to 6 months after purchase they have to repair or replace your Mac.
For reclamations after that time period you have to prove that the defect was already present at purchase, which is close to impossible to do. So effectively you get 6 months.

care on the other hand gives you unconditional warranty for 36 months.

Apple has been pretty reasonable in my experience in the past. I had to get my display, casing, keyboard and battery replaced after 20 or so months and they were like "technically u are supposed to provide prove that the fault existed from the beginning but obviously you cannot do that so we do it for free anyway". now i was lucky that i bought it straight from apple otherwise i would have been out of luck because most electronic stores i know would have been like "Lol ... not our problem. its been to long"

Retina Macbook Pro's haven't been around for 3 years.

yes they have .. i am typing this from a 2012 machine ...

 

[cjmillsnun]

Apple has been pretty reasonable in my experience in the past. I had to get my display, casing, keyboard and battery replaced after 20 or so months and they were like "technically u are supposed to provide prove that the fault existed from the beginning but obviously you cannot do that so we do it for free anyway". now i was lucky that i bought it straight from apple otherwise i would have been out of luck because most electronic stores i know would have been like "Lol ... not our problem. its been to long"



yes they have .. i am typing this from a 2012 machine ...

A MID 2012 machine. Not quite 3 years yet, but approaching it.

 

[steve62388]

Edit: The image of the Two Year Guarantee is from my dishwasher, without Activation the guarantee is 12 months - same with the 5 year Guarantee on my Fridge\Freezer! Why don't you call one of the numbers and ask them if they have to offer any warranty at all?

A bit off topic but...

Did you ever call Hotpoint to register? I did and it's a pretty big con. They kept trying to ram the purchase of an extended warranty down my throat. You still have to pay for their authorised labour, the minimum cost of which was two thirds the price of my fridge! A number of other terms and conditions which were not in my favour.

I registered for the parts, but nothing else. It took me asking the pleb on the end of the phone four times whether the Sale & Supply of Goods Act applied to my fridge before I got a straight answer. I knew it did, at that stage I was winding her up because I had clocked their game.

 

[chad.petree]

You guys made me head hurt , so basically apple is obliged to repair or exchange my device for 6 months and after that the usually still cover defects for another 6 months , but pretty much "out of courtesy" , after that they MAY offer me free repair service , but it's hit and miss, just pure luck, am I right?

 

[Meister]

You guys made me head hurt , so basically apple is obliged to repair or exchange my device for 12 months, after that they MAY offer me free repair service , but it's hit and miss, just pure luck, am I right?

I corrected this for you

 

[Daniele Mnn]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always know that here in Europe the legislation claim that the first year of warranty has to be executed by the manufacturer and the second by the seller. And that is why I bought my mac at the apple store, since it's both the manufacturer and the seller, instead of going to other electronic stores.