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Yes I am. And I know that this is either not relevant for most developers or should be paid on an as-needed basis.

I didn't ask you.

And it's highly relevant as I'm literally providing justification for the 30% fee, something that the other user argued that it wasn't justified by anyone at all.

Nobody said that $99 is too much for what you get. On the contrary, this should be much more expensive.

Then Apple loses thousands of developers as it's already too expensive to acquire an Apple device and pay $99/year for young developers. Even Apple had to remove the separate macOS $99/year fee because no one was developing for the Mac since iOS was were the money was at. Tripling/quadrupling the price wouldn't cover Apple's costs and therefore wouldn't solve anything.

The problem is that successful apps with relatively little infrastructure requirements are forced to subsidize unsuccessful and free apps.

Nope. Remember that "Hey" app? Yeah, it was finally allowed in the app store with still ZERO in-app subscriptions. All they needed to do was implement a 14 day trial period (which wasn't the only way to bypass Apple's rejection). If "successful apps with relatively little infrastructure" wanted to bypass the in-app subscriptions and have users buy a license online, they can. They can do it all the while not providing any subsidies towards other apps (and in fact, Apple pays out of their pocket to review and host your app since $99/year won't cut cover all of those expenses). All of this is possible today.
 
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Netflix was paying Apple with IAP. Then they decided to remove IAP ever since the guidelines changed to allow streaming apps to handle payment outside the app because it was a common developer request.

The only special deal Apple has with a company is with Amazon where Amazon doesn't pay Apple under *special circumstances* for video streaming rentals and purchases. The deal states that Amazon must incorporate all of the TV features of Apple TV (AirPlay, universal search, Siri, etc...things that were optional by third party developers).



What are you talking about? Freemium apps have to pay Apple the 30%.


Wrong. It's 100% justified with the amount of developer services and tools we get. Are you an iOS developer? If so, you would know that:
- we developers get up to 1 petabyte of user storage via CloudKit 100% free. Bear notes app does this and they manage 0 servers for their subscription-paid users.
- we could submit 1000 app and app updates in a year which translates to Apple paying about 1000 man-hours worth of paychecks at about $30/hr or ~$30k.
- we have free access to using Apple Maps instead of paying Google tons of money to use their mapping API keys (for those high volume users). this saves Yelp a ton of money.
- we get many more new features every single year via the SDK compared to Android (like ARKit, Core ML, SwiftUI, Vision, etc... just to name a few).
- we get global distribution for free (including China, you know, where Google Play doesn't exist and also it is that place with a great firewall where most of our third party cloud servers can't reach from USA).
- we get app store curated editorial with a chance to reach front page in front of 500 million customers a week.
- we have no credit card fees to worry about
- we get hosted testflight service for public and private beta testing for free
- app store creates many different binaries of our app and distributes device-optimized versions to each customer. a 1 gigabyte app with many different permutations of versions across hundreds of servers around the world means Apple is hosting about several terrabytes in the cloud for us
- push notifications/push notification sandbox servers, web versions of cloudkit/mapkit, yearly major releases of Xcode with new features, 1 time per year code level support from Apple engineers, analytics dashboard and crash reporting, and the list goes on and on.

You think $99/year is going to cover that? Nope. Not even close.
Freemium apps only pay 30% if people choose to pay to get rid of ads. How many people do?

If the $99/yr developer fee isn’t enough to cover everything developers get then maybe that fee needs to be increased. I’d rather than than Apple saying we deserve 30% of your revenue stream because it’s our store or you wouldn’t exist without us. As far as IAP goes - rather than gerrymandering a category to fit a certain class of apps (that Apple just happens to compete with) - why not allow developers the option of using their own payment system? Smaller developers or those who don’t want to deal with payments can use Apple’s IAP. Bigger companies and/or ones that already have their own payments system can use that.
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Nope. Remember that "Hey" app? Yeah, it was finally allowed in the app store with still ZERO in-app subscriptions. All they needed to do was implement a 14 day trial period (which wasn't the only way to bypass Apple's rejection). If "successful apps with relatively little infrastructure" wanted to bypass the in-app subscriptions and have users buy a license online, they can. They can do it all the while not providing any subsidies towards other apps (and in fact, Apple pays out of their pocket to review and host your app since $99/year won't cut cover all of those expenses). All of this is possible today.
But why did they have to change their app to offer a 14 day trial period? Because they don’t fit this gerrymandered category Apple created. So Netflix can bypass IAP without having to offer a functional app upon download but Hey can’t. Phil Schiller says it’s not a good customer experience. Well except for those “reader” apps. Then it’s OK. Or it’s not really OK but we can’t afford not to have those apps in our store. Hey it sucks you’re not Netflix. Too bad so sad.
 
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So none of the $1000 iPhone or iPad Pro goes towards the App Store? The only thing that sustains it is Apple taking 30% of someone else’s revenues? Then why do they allow freemium apps in the store? My mother has a phone full of games and other apps she didn’t spend one cent on. And why do they allow Netflix, Spotify and others to get around paying 30% (or 15%)? I just re-installed my SiriusXM app today and you can’t do anything in the app unless you’re a subscriber and there is no option to subscribe in app. All you get when you launch the app is a login screen. So I guess Apple is A-OK with Sirius not paying up and having an app that doesn’t function unless you’re a subscriber?

And don’t forget all the “free” apps which are the majority in the App Store. I pay to get rid of ads so Apple gets a cut of that but I’ll bet a lot of people don’t. Especially if the price to remove ads is more than $1.99.

So you want developers to get a free ride and pay nothing for Apple doing a lot of the work then? You then think that you have a moral argument, I think not!
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Healthy does not mean or imply greedy or freaking expensive.

Suppose, you'r real developer and not an apple (paid?) "fan", just murmuring something to spread their "args" to create a feeling of common opinion. You say, you've made "this much money" from an app, and I know manies that made not. Some of them really failed in aspects of usability & etc. But some just got stopped by the 30% barrier 'cause their apps were costly to maintain, so once again, to comply with apple policies (those apps required moderation for user content uploads).
There's always a balance between safety & its costs. It would be 99% safe to live all life "in a closet", but you don't. 30% fee is not for safety, it's for raking in shekels.

Read the reply from an IOS developer which proves that 30% cut is reasonable. Enough said.
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Tim needs to stick with running Apple and drop the fake social justice.

Yes ebcuase you are so much better at it I take it then?
 
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It kind of bothers me that Microsoft isn’t a part of this hearing, Windows 10 does things to promote Microsoft services that Apple wouldn’t dare try doing, especially with regards to Edge. It claims that your PC is not fully protected if you don’t have OneDrive turned on, it sends surveys and shows Edge ads when you install a competing browser, Office 365 has a bundled plug-in that changes the user’s search engine to Bing. Just awful behavior. I’m also getting the feeling that the politicians won’t be asking Google about how their text messaging app suggests starting a Duo call if you mention Zoom in a conversation.
Same old shenanigans by Microsoft, and now Google and Facebook. Apple has little in common with these companies.
 
Freemium apps only pay 30% if people choose to pay to get rid of ads. How many people do?

Candy Crush $1.88 billion in revenue in 2013 from just 4% of their players doing in-app purchases https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...credible-business-horrible-investment/283891/

Freemium apps are highly profitable and those apps paying 30% make the App Store very healthy.


If the $99/yr developer fee isn’t enough to cover everything developers get then maybe that fee needs to be increased.

Hard disagree. The average successful app submits about 4 updates per month. That's 36 updates a year, or 36 hours an app reviewer spends on reviewing an app. From Glassdoor, they make about $30/hr. That's about $1k per year alone not even counting the other services I mentioned. That would destroy the App Store and would make Android development more attractive.

We already saw Apple remove the $99/year fee from macOS and combined it with iOS's developer fee because no one was developing for macOS. Raising the prices would just drive developers away to Android/Windows as the high start up costs create a huge barrier of entry.


I’d rather than than Apple saying we deserve 30% of your revenue stream because it’s our store or you wouldn’t exist without us. As far as IAP goes - rather than gerrymandering a category to fit a certain class of apps (that Apple just happens to compete with) - why not allow developers the option of using their own payment system? Smaller developers or those who don’t want to deal with payments can use Apple’s IAP. Bigger companies and/or ones that already have their own payments system can use that.

But why did they have to change their app to offer a 14 day trial period? Because they don’t fit this gerrymandered category Apple created. So Netflix can bypass IAP without having to offer a functional app upon download but Hey can’t. Phil Schiller says it’s not a good customer experience. Well except for those “reader” apps. Then it’s OK. Or it’s not really OK but we can’t afford not to have those apps in our store. Hey it sucks you’re not Netflix. Too bad so sad.

That's Apple's platform. When you build at platform, you dictate the rules. So far, royalty fees have been standard since the 1980's with Nintendo setting the rules that if you develop for the Nintendo console, you pay Nintendo a large percentage of your revenue. If the rules are extremely stupid, you avoid that platform and move on to Sega or another gaming platform. Not really much different than iOS and Android today. In fact, Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo charge 30% fees for all games distributed on their online store today.

If you're saying the same rules should apply to every app, then you're essentially rooting for "porn apps" to be available on the app store, right? I mean, why is Netflix on the App Store and not some porn app? You're arguing for all apps to be treated equally and I disagree with that.
 
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So none of the $1000 iPhone or iPad Pro goes towards the App Store? The only thing that sustains it is Apple taking 30% of someone else’s revenues? Then why do they allow freemium apps in the store? My mother has a phone full of games and other apps she didn’t spend one cent on. And why do they allow Netflix, Spotify and others to get around paying 30% (or 15%)? I just re-installed my SiriusXM app today and you can’t do anything in the app unless you’re a subscriber and there is no option to subscribe in app. All you get when you launch the app is a login screen. So I guess Apple is A-OK with Sirius not paying up and having an app that doesn’t function unless you’re a subscriber?

And don’t forget all the “free” apps which are the majority in the App Store. I pay to get rid of ads so Apple gets a cut of that but I’ll bet a lot of people don’t. Especially if the price to remove ads is more than $1.99.

Your last point is exactly why they “allow” freemium apps in the store. They’re not free. They’re loss leaders. Those free apps make both Apple and the developers money when users upgrade from the free apps to the paid apps, which they wouldn’t have done had the free apps not been there. They’re the equivalent of a “free trial” or “free base plan” or anything else in this world that is “free” but isn’t really. It’s marketing.

Marketing is a standard business cost. It never pays for itself because there’s no actual product or service provided to the customer by marketing. Marketing is paid for by the sales that result from the marketing - that wouldn’t otherwise happen without the marketing.

I really don’t understand why it’s so hard for some people to comprehend this.
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The role of the gatekeeper and competitor should always be separated. Google had the same problem showing Google ads and at the same time ads from different companies.
AppleTV+ pays no fees at all while other competing services have to pay the Apple Tax?

Umm... who exactly should Apple TV+ be paying fees to?

Hosting, distributing, selling, etc. apps costs money. Before the App Store most of that cost developers more than 30%. Just listen to the (positive) reaction when Steve first announced it in the 2008 keynote.

It costs Apple to host, distribute, etc. the competing apps for those competitors. It costs Apple to host, distribute, etc. Apple TV+ for themselves. Apple wear that coat for themselves, and the competitors pay Apple to cover that cost and some margin.

This is no different to any other business. it’s pretty simple really. Why is it so hard for some people to understand?
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Netflix was paying Apple with IAP. Then they decided to remove IAP ever since the guidelines changed to allow streaming apps to handle payment outside the app because it was a common developer request.

The only special deal Apple has with a company is with Amazon where Amazon doesn't pay Apple under *special circumstances* for video streaming rentals and purchases. The deal states that Amazon must incorporate all of the TV features of Apple TV (AirPlay, universal search, Siri, etc...things that were optional by third party developers).



What are you talking about? Freemium apps have to pay Apple the 30%.



Wrong. It's 100% justified with the amount of developer services and tools we get. Are you an iOS developer? If so, you would know that:
- we developers get up to 1 petabyte of user storage via CloudKit 100% free. Bear notes app does this and they manage 0 servers for their subscription-paid users.
- we could submit 1000 app and app updates in a year which translates to Apple paying about 1000 man-hours worth of paychecks at about $30/hr or ~$30k.
- we have free access to using Apple Maps instead of paying Google tons of money to use their mapping API keys (for those high volume users). this saves Yelp a ton of money.
- we get many more new features every single year via the SDK compared to Android (like ARKit, Core ML, SwiftUI, Vision, etc... just to name a few).
- we get global distribution for free (including China, you know, where Google Play doesn't exist and also it is that place with a great firewall where most of our third party cloud servers can't reach from USA).
- we get app store curated editorial with a chance to reach front page in front of 500 million customers a week.
- we have no credit card fees to worry about
- we get hosted testflight service for public and private beta testing for free
- app store creates many different binaries of our app and distributes device-optimized versions to each customer. a 1 gigabyte app with many different permutations of versions across hundreds of servers around the world means Apple is hosting about several terrabytes in the cloud for us
- push notifications/push notification sandbox servers, web versions of cloudkit/mapkit, yearly major releases of Xcode with new features, 1 time per year code level support from Apple engineers, analytics dashboard and crash reporting, and the list goes on and on.

You think $99/year is going to cover that? Nope. Not even close.

Fantastic description. Thanks for posting this. As I’ve said in my previous posts above, why is it so hard for people to understand what - and just how much - Apple is providing here for developers.

People should watch to the keynote when Steve announced that 30% and the positive audience (developers) reaction. 30% is cheap. I really don’t see what the problem is.
 
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Healthy does not mean or imply greedy or freaking expensive.

Suppose, you'r real developer and not an apple (paid?) "fan", just murmuring something to spread their "args" to create a feeling of common opinion. You say, you've made "this much money" from an app, and I know manies that made not. Some of them really failed in aspects of usability & etc. But some just got stopped by the 30% barrier 'cause their apps were costly to maintain, so once again, to comply with apple policies (those apps required moderation for user content uploads).
There's always a balance between safety & its costs. It would be 99% safe to live all life "in a closet", but you don't. 30% fee is not for safety, it's for raking in shekels.

The question is: why did their apps fail? What alternatives are there for these developers that would have been better?

Complaining that Apple gets 30% of their revenue makes no sense for two reasons:

1. For what Apple provides, If Apple didn’t provide it, what would those devs be doing instead? How would they be distributing their apps globally and with all the other benefits (see farewellswilliams’ post I’ve replied to above) without Apple doing it? What other costs, man hours,etc. would they be incurring instead of Apple’s 30% fee to get even some of what that fee provides?

2. And this is the real clincher. For Apple to get 30% of anything means the devs are actually making sales. And that’s what’s so great about this business model. Without it, you have to pony up all the hosting, distribution, etc. wrote you make a single sale. If you don’t sell enough you lose all that cost. Apple provides a virtually risk free environment. They share your risk. If your app sells you get 70% of everything. If your app doesn’t sell Apple gets 30% of nothing, while still providing you all they provide.

(Incidentally, actually they only get 25%-27% because of what they - not you - pay the CC companies for processing).

So... how should they bill it instead? Should they charge you for all of that based on some flat fee or something else before you even sell a single copy/license? Good luck with that.

What exactly are you really complaining about here? What really is the issue/problem. How else should they do it?

And “they should just charge less” is not an answer. Yes, I wish everything in life was cheaper but reality doesn’t work that way. Unless we switch to communism or something then we pay what the market bears and the market is having absolutely no problem bearing this 30%.

If you want to say to Apple “Your service sucks because you charge too much, how about your boss says to you “you charge to much for what you do at your job, AU should pay you less.” Or how do you feel if your customers say you charge too much for your app?

So all you people complaining about this stuff, stop being victimS and give a straight answer. What’s actually the real world issue here and what should Apple do instead that’s actually better but still fair to everyone?
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Yes I am. And I know that this is either not relevant for most developers or should be paid on an as-needed basis.

Nobody said that $99 is too much for what you get. On the contrary, this should be much more expensive. The problem is that successful apps with relatively little infrastructure requirements are forced to subsidize unsuccessful and free apps.

What a stupid thing to say. How does anyone know BEFORE they submit or even develop their app if it’s going to be successful or not. Making the $99 a lot higher and the 30% lower only pushes potential developers out.

I’m sure there are plenty of great apps on the App stores that wouldn’t exist if the up front cost was high enough to even remotely offset a lower amount than the 30% - because the developers who made them wouldn’t have risked it.

How is any of that good for anyone?
 
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People should watch to the keynote when Steve announced that 30% and the positive audience (developers) reaction. 30% is cheap. I really don’t see what the problem is.

Steve Jobs announced that over a decade ago. The world has changed quite substantially since then. Paying 30% for a glorified CDN is highway robbery today considering that most apps need developers to build up their own server infrastructure which they're paying for anyways.

You've been arguing purely from potential benefits of the App store to developers, but the fact of the matter is that the only reason why iPhones are worth the price is because of all the feature-rich third-party apps you can use on them in the first place. Apple isn't some saint that is granting access to its store to lowly developers. Without those developers and Apps their devices would be worth significantly less.
 
Steve Jobs announced that over a decade ago. The world has changed quite substantially since then. Paying 30% for a glorified CDN is highway robbery today considering that most apps need developers to build up their own server infrastructure which they're paying for anyways.

You've been arguing purely from potential benefits of the App store to developers, but the fact of the matter is that the only reason why iPhones are worth the price is because of all the feature-rich third-party apps you can use on them in the first place. Apple isn't some saint that is granting access to its store to lowly developers. Without those developers and Apps their devices would be worth significantly less.

Publishers/Developers have been giving up over 50% of their revenue from software sold in brick and mortar stores before the App Store came along. Retailers like Best Buy took 25%. Platform owner took about 11%. Distribution cost (manufacturing CD/inserts/shipping/cost of returns) take about 19%. Publishers take in about 45% after all of those costs.

App Store increased publishers/developers cut from 45% to 70%. Apple handles distribution, credit card fees and chargebacks, international sales (including China), and maintenance of platform. Same rules apply to Playstation/Xbox/Nintendo via their own online stores today. Developers asking to bypass the 30% fees to Apple is pure greed.
 
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I didn't ask you.
I don't need to be asked.

Your argument is wrong no matter who you ask. Let those pay who use Apple's services (for example, a developer who doesn't really know programning much and needs a backend infrastructure that only works on iOS) but not professional developers who of course have their own cross-platform backends.
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Please take your seat and class will continue after the introductory video finishes.
Thanks, I'm even in the front row. The introductory video is about Apple being fined 1 billion by the EU.
 
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It kind of bothers me that Microsoft isn’t a part of this hearing, Windows 10 does things to promote Microsoft services that Apple wouldn’t dare try doing, especially with regards to Edge. It claims that your PC is not fully protected if you don’t have OneDrive turned on, it sends surveys and shows Edge ads when you install a competing browser, Office 365 has a bundled plug-in that changes the user’s search engine to Bing. Just awful behavior. I’m also getting the feeling that the politicians won’t be asking Google about how their text messaging app suggests starting a Duo call if you mention Zoom in a conversation.

Microsoft's promotion is not as evil as Apple's lockout. On Windows, you have the freedom to install alternatives to Microsoft's app store like Steam, GOG, Origin, Ubisoft and more. Besides no competing iOS app store you can't even update Safari from Apple's own app store once your device stops receiving iOS updates like the 2013 iPad Air while Windows devices from 2007 if not earlier can update any browser independently of OS update.
 
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What a stupid thing to say. How does anyone know BEFORE they submit or even develop their app if it’s going to be successful or not.
Have you ever paid for professional services? Probably not. Let me enlighten you: There are several tiers, depending on your needs and what you actually use.
 
App Store increased publishers/developers cut from 45% to 70%. Apple handles distribution, credit card fees and chargebacks, international sales (including China), and maintenance of platform. Same rules apply to Playstation/Xbox/Nintendo via their own online stores today. Developers asking to bypass the 30% fees to Apple is pure greed.

That's just rich. Apple is one of the most profitable companies on the planet, with enormous margins already on the hardware, but it's developers who are greedy? Xbox and Playstations sold at cost for decades to get hardware into the hands of consumers. The Switch itself has an estimated cost which is pretty close to the MSRP. Developers are more than capable of doing distribution, payments, international sales if they would have had the chance to even have that option. Apple doesn't allow anything but their own app store. Again, the world has changed. CDN's are dirt cheap. Payments API's make handling everything including chargebacks easy.
 
That's just rich. Apple is one of the most profitable companies on the planet, with enormous margins already on the hardware, but it's developers who are greedy?

If a developer is simply asking for more money from Apple because they're rich, that is called being greedy. Developers were clapping when the App Store was announced with 70/30 split, but suddenly when Apple is rich, developers want more. Don't act like that's not being greedy.

Xbox and Playstations sold at cost for decades to get hardware into the hands of consumers. The Switch itself has an estimated cost which is pretty close to the MSRP.

So developers are okay with a 70/30 split because the companies decided that it was a good idea to compete on price? Tell that to Rockstar that spent $265 million on building GTA V which at least 30% (likely 50%) of the revenue was given up. If Rockstar with its hundred million dollar budgets isn't complaining about Sony's cut and if indie developers with less than hundred thousand dollar budgets aren't complaining about Sony's cut, then iOS developers have no grounds to complain about the cut. This is simply a cash grab by developers because Apple has too much money which is almost like telling a billionaire to give me money simply because a billionaire has more money than me. That's not being objective.

Developers are more than capable of doing distribution, payments, international sales if they would have had the chance to even have that option. Apple doesn't allow anything but their own app store.

False. Payments and international sales can be handled outside the App Store. In fact, that "Hey" app is doing just that.

Again, the world has changed. CDN's are dirt cheap. Payments API's make handling everything including chargebacks easy.

No. I can tell you've never distributed an app in China (you know, world's #1 smartphone market currently). With Android, I have to submit to Google Play store and Baidu's app store. This means two separate app store policies. This also means I need to implement push notifications through Firebase and a separate implementation through Baidu's service. This means I need a server that can connect to Baidu for notifications which means I need separate servers from an AWS China account and separate servers from another AWS account for the rest of the world. This is extra dev/QA/deployment time that I don't need to worry about with iOS at all with every single update.
 
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