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If you buy an ebook through Kindle, you can only read Kindle ebooks within the Kindle app. You cannot read them in any other app
I can read them on a dedicated hardware device (my Kindle reader).
Or on my Android tablet's Kindle app.

And you cannot read non-Kindle ebooks within the Kindle app
I certainly can.
Other generic eReader apps that read ePub files exist, but since they aren’t selling access to the core functionality of the app (a specific curated library of books) they are exempt from in-app purchases
No, of course not!

If I make an app that can read ePub books and also sell them in-app, of course I am liable to Apple's commissions (well, without the court orders and the DMA).
The app would be completely pointless without the subscription service
So let's take YouTube.

I don't have a paid YouTube subscription.
I just downloaded the YouTube app to my iPhone.
It allows me to watch videos on YouTube - without a subscription (or being logged in, for that matter).

Certainly not completely pointless, is it?

So it’s only fair that Apple collects their commission from such in-app purchases, since they host the app, and the in-app purchase unlocks the fundamental functionality of the app
No.

The fundamental functionality of the free-to-download YouTube app is to watch videos.
Which does not require unlocking through a purchase or subscription.
And yet, when I subscribe through a premium subscription as an in-app purchase in that app, Apple takes commission, don't they?
Furthermore, is YouTube free to implement their own in-app purchasing mechanism or "link out" to their website?

For example, the Spotify app is completely pointless without a Spotify subscription. It’s the core functionality of the app. It’s the sole reason one would download it for.
Again: No.
Spotify provide free, ad-supported streaming.
It certainly does not depend on a paid subscription.

It cannot play any other MP3 files, only the music included in the Spotify subscription
Wrong again.
It can play them:


And you just repeatedly claiming things you don’t like are “discriminatory” doesn’t make it so…
They are literally discriminating in-app transactions for digital goods/services vs. transactions for non-digital ones.
 
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If you buy an ebook through Kindle, you can only read Kindle ebooks within the Kindle app. You cannot read them in any other app. And you cannot read non-Kindle ebooks within the Kindle app. Kindle ebooks are tied to the Kindle app. And are a direct service provided by the app. Other generic eReader apps that read ePub files exist, but since they aren’t selling access to the core functionality of the app (a specific curated library of books) they are exempt from in-app purchases, and rightly so. Your Kindle book cannot be read in any other app.

They do for several reasons. For one, there are apps that distribute for free for educational purposes, government purposes, non-profits, etc. And consumer apps that are just entirely free. And for most subscription services, the app itself is free, but the subscription service the app provides is not. The subscription service is an in-app purchase. The app would be completely pointless without the subscription service. So it’s only fair that Apple collects their commission from such in-app purchases, since they host the app, and the in-app purchase unlocks the fundamental functionality of the app. For example, the Spotify app is completely pointless without a Spotify subscription. It’s the core functionality of the app. It’s the sole reason one would download it for. It cannot play any other MP3 files, only the music included in the Spotify subscription. I believe this commission system is perfectly reasonable. And so did the developers as well apparently at some point when they agreed to those terms and signed a contract…

And no, we don’t agree, because you are again creating false equivalency. I’ve already explained the major differences between those kinds of apps… They are not the same, and should not be managed the same way…

PS. And you just repeatedly claiming things you don’t like are “discriminatory” doesn’t make it so…
You can read Kindle ebooks on an actual Kindle too, you certainly don't need the Kindle app (and of course you can actually strip the DRM with Calibre and have a perfectly compatible epub). You can also upload epubs to Amazon and they will convert them to Kindle format and make it available in your library: https://www.amazon.com/sendtokindle.
 
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I can read them on a dedicated hardware device (my Kindle reader).
Or on my Android tablet's Kindle app.


I certainly can.

No, of course not!

If I make an app that can read ePub books and also sell them in-app, of course I am liable to Apple's commissions (well, without the court orders and the DMA).

So let's take YouTube.

I don't have a paid YouTube subscription.
I just downloaded the YouTube app to my iPhone.
It allows me to watch videos on YouTube - without a subscription (or being logged in, for that matter).

Certainly not completely pointless, is it?


No.

The fundamental functionality of the free-to-download YouTube app is to watch videos.
Which does not require unlocking through a purchase or subscription.
And yet, when I subscribe through a premium subscription as an in-app purchase in that app, Apple takes commission, don't they?
Furthermore, is YouTube free to implement their own in-app purchasing mechanism or "link out" to their website?


Again: No.
Spotify provide free, ad-supported streaming.
It certainly does not depend on a paid subscription.


Wrong again.
It can play them:



They are literally discriminating in-app transactions for digital goods/services vs. transactions for non-digital ones.
Yeah, but if you purchase it from the app that Apple is using their resources to host and promote, then it’s perfectly reasonable for Apple to collect a commission on that sale.

I’ve never heard of loading your own books into the Kindle app before on iOS, and I even looked it up. Perhaps it exists, or perhaps it’s only for on the Kindle device, not the Kindle app on an iPhone…. If it truly does work that way, then I stand corrected on that.

Dido on Spotify, but have again, never heard of that functionality, even specifically looking it up. PS. Tested the steps provided in the link, and it does actually work. I honestly didn’t know about that, and had looked for that specifically multiple times. So I stand corrected on that point.

Either way, these purchases are a direct result of Apple’s services. Sales made from the website? Sure, Apple shouldn’t collect a commission. Sales from a sideloaded Spotify app? Again, Apple shouldn’t collect commissions there. But in-app purchases from the app hosted within the App Store that Apple has added value to, and where purchases are the direct result of Apple’s hosting services? Yes, I think that is perfectly fair. And so did these companies when they agreed to those terms, otherwise they wouldn’t have agreed to them…

If Spotify thinks the terms are unfair, then they can always choose to withdraw their app from the App Store, and use a sideloaded app and/or web app. Especially in the EU. There’s nothing stopping them from doing that. But instead, they still want to benefit from Apple’s services, but also cheat them out of the commissions they agreed to pay for those services.

It’s not discrimination, because they are different kinds of transactions. If Apple allowed Spotify to offer in-app purchases without collecting a commission, but then required a commission from YouTube, that would be discrimination. But they aren’t doing that. You are trying to create a false equivalence between in-app purchases and purchases made via an app, which are completely different. Apple is consistently and fairly applying the terms and conditions that developers agreed to when requesting access to Apple’s services. That is not discrimination…
 
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You can read Kindle ebooks on an actual Kindle too, you certainly don't need the Kindle app (and of course you can actually strip the DRM with Calibre and have a perfectly compatible epub). You can also upload epubs to Amazon and they will convert them to Kindle format and make it available in your library: https://www.amazon.com/sendtokindle.
Stripping DRMs is generally questionable, because it’s the same thing people do to pirate content. And it certainly isn’t something most people will do. I had looked into uploading epubs to the Kindle app on iOS, and never came across that functionality even when specifically looking it up. It looks like it exists, but I looked it up several times and could never find it before. 👍🏻. So if it does in fact work, I stand corrected on that point. 👍🏻
 
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Stripping DRMs is generally questionable, because it’s the same thing people do to pirate content. And it certainly isn’t something most people will do. I had looked into uploading epubs to the Kindle app on iOS, and never came across that functionality even when specifically looking it up. It looks like it exists, but I looked it up several times and could never find it before. 👍🏻. So if it does in fact work, I stand corrected on that point. 👍🏻
Stripping DRM is legal in the US at least, it would be illegal to distribute or sell the resulting file. It's perfectly acceptable for one's own archival purposes. That was an aside anyway, the main point was that Kindle ebooks can be read without a Kindle app.
 
Stripping DRM is legal in the US at least, it would be illegal to distribute or sell the resulting file. It's perfectly acceptable for one's own archival purposes. That was an aside anyway, the main point was that Kindle ebooks can be read without a Kindle app.
Ok, I didn’t know if it were illegal or not per se, but I am not sure if I would get in trouble with Amazon for violating terms of service or something. 👍🏻. But maybe not. And I guess what I was meaning was that Kindle ebooks can’t be read on the iPhone by itself without either using the Kindle web app or the Kindle app without using a DRM removal tool like what you’re talking about. I would like to test adding ePubs into the Kindle library at some point when I get some time, I likely wouldn’t use it much, but would be interesting. I can’t believe I’ve literally looked that up on several occasions, and never found that. Thanks for sharing. 👍🏻
 
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Yeah, but if you purchase it from the app that Apple is using their resources to host and promote, then it’s perfectly reasonable for Apple to collect a commission on that sale.
I don't have an issue with Apple charging on their own store, if that happens in a competitive environment.
A duopoly of stores that don't even compete directly against each other (for the same customer purchases) - and where those two store operators are economically linked to each other (Google paying them many billions for being the default search engine) isn't that.

And Apple have been forcing (a particular subset) developers to use their store and in-app purchasing if they wish to market to customers using iOS (which, again, there's hardly any competition for except Android).
Either way, these purchases are a direct result of Apple’s services.
I don't think so. Not much, if any.

Take Spotify for example: There's no reality in which consumers today "discover" Spotify through the App Store - rather than Spotify relying on their advertising and word of mouth recommendations.

If Spotify thinks the terms are unfair, then they can always choose to withdraw their app from the App Store, and use a sideloaded app and/or web app. Especially in the EU
...for which (sideloaded apps) Apple - a direct competitor in music streaming - still intends to charge commission.

You are trying to create a false equivalence between in-app purchases and purchases made via an app, which are completely different.
I completely disagree.
There's literally no difference in the transaction flow of purchasing a physical book or an ebook except the delivery online vs. by mail. Both of which Apple isn't even involved in (the book gets downloaded directly from the eBook store). And of course the the mandatory use of Apple's IAP that Apple forced upon certain types of transactions.

It’s not discrimination, because they are different kinds of transactions. If Apple allowed Spotify to offer in-app purchases without collecting a commission, but then required a commission from YouTube, that would be discrimination.
Let's call it unjustified differentiation then.
 
Do you mean the "closed, locked phone market" where EU regulation means most people have a choice of 3 competing phone carriers, any phone works on any network, there are strict limits on locking phones to specific networks without offering unlock codes, generally free roaming between countries and competetive prices on call and data charges/contracts? (all gradually going south in the UK after Brexit...)

I looked at the cost of call/data packages in the US a few years back. Yikes!
what does carrier cost have to do with app installs and alt app stores?
 
I think they mean that Apple could have waited and gone right to USB-C.
Being in the working group, they knew the timetable (and obviously didn't want to wait).
Lighting came with iPhone 5 which was 2012. There is a 2-3 year lead up for designs before release. USB type C was not released tell 2014, and yes I am pretty sure the people who developed lightning worked on USB-C (or lightning 2.0). You are a business and you wanna reduce the size of your device, do you go with A; your home grown connector that is ready to roll, and even has a certificate to tell your customers that this cable is free from bad actors or B; wait 2-3+ years for the port of all ports to be released, that had a protocol, power delivery and functionality crisis since it came out about labeling. A lighting cable was a lighting cable. A USB-C cable is a (?) maybe a 3.2 5Ghz or 3.2 10Ghz. Maybe has PD or PD+ or PD III. It might be Thunderbolt 3 or 4 compatible or USB 4.*.* or USB 5.* compatible and it wasn’t tell this last year that the USB group finally decided to hammer out labeling issues.

And I really wanna know, how many people where really buying anything besides cables for lighting in the last five years of it’s existence. Headphones and speakers had pretty much moved too wireless for the majority of people.
 
It's time to kill this arguement dead.

The games industry is a fairly open one, where a small developer like Panic can make a reasonable business out of a niche device like the Playdate alongside established brands like a Nintendo and Sony. Neither of those big companies have a monopoly on software distribution. You can buy discs, carts and voucher codes from innumerable 3rd party retailers.

The smartphone market has a duopoly of two companies. A startup in Prague or Singapore that wants to develop it's own handset that runs a different OS has no chance against them because they're in cahoots with each other. Google pays Apple for search privileges; Apple buys Samsung circuit boards; Samsung get Google to build their AI and round and round the go.

The EU are not asking for iOS on 3rd party devices but rather a level playing field for software distribution which on the iPhone Apple is the sole gatekeeper for.
the game market is NOT open.

i can't get useful apps like VLC on devices that could make portable entertainment possible because Nintendo wont allow it.

the argument is NOT dead at all ;)

Smart phone market is mostly two operating systems but far, far ,far from a duopoly of devices.

you have a huge choice and can extend Android however you want.
you want a different app or payment? go there.
stop removing my (and many others) choice of a system that is locked down and protected when you have to option available to do what you want.
 
Weird, you're absolutely right about something.

Consoles absolutely SHOULD be force to open up too. ALL computing hardware absolutely SHOULD be forced to play by the same rules.

There's no reason for the double standard.

iPhone, iPad, or Playstation, doesn't matter, they should ALL be forced to allow normal software installation or banned from being sold.
well put your efforts into opening consoles instead of breaking a system that works AND there is an open alternative for.
 
stop removing my (and many others) choice of a system that is locked down
Nobody and nothing is removing your choice to download everything from Apple.

And neither was or is the system really "locked down", when they had to introduce a proper but functionally substantially degraded ...well, "lockdown mode".

I haven't heard read you complaining about how all those years you/your iPhone weren't properly "locked down".

well put your efforts into opening consoles instead of breaking a system that works AND there is an open alternative for.
Google is under no obligation to keep Android open.
Neither are their Play services really openly accessible.
 
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Due to the lack of consumer choice on OSes (Android or iOS) Apple and Google aren't really competing companies as much as competing levels of infrastructure. The open market has to be at a software distribution level (like on PC and Mac) rather than hardware.
Mac and PC are not as Open Market as you think.

They still sandbox apps and restrict very low leve apps from doing whatever they want.
They have to to ensure your app doesn run amoke and take down the system or other apps or access other app data.

So while PCs can do a lot more with less control it is false to say they are open for anything you want to run on them.
 
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You do realize that the lighting connector came out before USB-C right?
It replaced the old 30 pin. Also, for some of us, Steve Jobs said that lightning was the connector for the next decade, which is about how long it lasted.
i like how the same people hate on facts... what you said is 100% correct and still the same ones click grump face. LOL

EDIT: as evidenced again by the first reaction ;)
 
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at this stage Apple must be thinking it would be a lot cheaper to just send a high end Android device to the 10 people on MR who regularly want an open system... :)
 
well put your efforts into opening consoles instead of breaking a system that works AND there is an open alternative for.
And we're back to disagreeing.

Apple is a higher priority. iPhones NEED to be forced open as soon as possible. Consoles can come later, because they're less relevant to most of society.
 
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Not just less safe but less secure too? Goodness gracious! I like how you throw out these words as if they mean anything without providing any context whatsoever. And how could you? Defending Apple on the internet on your free time doesn't require specifics now does it.
Adding code to allow third party app stores and sideloading, not to mention third party hardware interact with the OS is going to result in a less secure OS. Bugs and vulnerabilities will be introduced.

Do you recall car makers unsuccessfully trying to justify restricting repairs to their own certified partners because independent shops are going to spy on your car's location data and rob you or worse? There were some really unhinged ideas of what "less safe" would supposedly look like. It was comical. All so that people would get scared of independent repair shops.

I don't intend to sideload ever even if that should come to the States some day. Yet if someone else wants to be "less safe" then that's their choice with their property they paid handsomely for. As iPhones fall under the EU's gatekeeper rule Apple simply isn't permitted to stop customers from acquiring software from places other than Apple.
If they want to sideload they can buy an Android device. Or they can jailbreak their device. But blowing up the way iOS has worked for 17 years, and yes, making it less safe and secure, because you can’t be bothered to buy a device that better meets your needs is the height of selfishness.
With any other phone manufacturer you can have it your way: Don't like the rules of said manufacturer? Buy a different phone brand! Easy. But you can't buy an iPhone from anyone else other than Apple and you can't buy a smartphone running iOS that's not an iPhone.
And one of the major things that makes Apple different is that it is closed! Apple doesn’t want to make it open, I suspect the majority of Apple’s customers don’t either. You’re not entitled to have a company make the product you want them to make just because you want it.

Not to mention the Apple iOS app store is the default store on iPhones and isn't going anywhere. Right now Apple customers can sideload already in the EU but those who don't even know what sideloading means see no difference in how they use their iPhones and acquire their apps. Sideloading is possible on Android as well. Are Pixels inherently "unsafe and unsecure" compared to iPhones? The majority of Android users get their apps from Google's Play Store and never sideload anything.
Yes, Pixels are! Android has so much more malware than iOS. Users who sideload on Android are 200% more likely to have malware. Almost 10% of Android Malware can be directly traced to sideloading. (The true number is likely much higher).

Some more choice quotes from the above-linked article:

The advice is simple. No to third-party stores
The good news for Android users sticking rigidly to Play Store, though, is that unsurprisingly the risks are exponentially increased when sideloading. Little surprise then that Google, Samsung and others are finally clamping down on third-party app store access and direct installs

Anyone arguing that opening up iOS isn’t going to result in malware and a massive increase in the number of Apple’s users getting scammed is simply not living in reality.

In fact most users' smartphones are made less safe by apps that are available in the official iOS and Google app store. On the one hand you have malicious apps that unfortunately sometimes make it through Apple's as well as Google's safety scanning processes and might be installed on many devices before being force-removed. On the other you have apps that remain on the stores to this day such as tiktok. These apps do make users less safe because they might collect and process your personal information and additional data derived from your use of such apps like political affiliation. And such data about you can be sold and is being sold today and you have no recourse or ability to find out how anonymized this data really is.
Agree privacy is a problem, but opening third party app stores and sideloading is going to make that problem worse! Apple is the only one doing anything to push back (and yes, they could do more). You think third party app stores aren’t going to sell your data?

And such apps are willingly installed by users every day from official app stores where their personal data is being harvested without their knowledge yet you claim sideloading is the actual issue. I cannot take you seriously.
If you don’t like what I have to say, you are more than welcome to click ignore.
 
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Due to the lack of consumer choice on OSes (Android or iOS) Apple and Google aren't really competing companies as much as competing levels of infrastructure. The open market has to be at a software distribution level (like on PC and Mac) rather than hardware.
There is no "lack of consumer choice".
 
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Which clearly benefits consumers.
Private sharing of files without internet and cloud required.

Why are you so against it?
By the same line of reasoning, getting rid of all meat in diets would clearly benefit consumers and the country. Should we have the country ban meat?

Making things that are a "good idea" be legally mandated is not always a good way to go.

Would it be nice if Apple offered some sort of cross-platform wireless file drop? Sure. So, go make your case to Apple that they ought to offer it - but don't legally require it of them.
 
I don't have an issue with Apple charging on their own store, if that happens in a competitive environment.
A duopoly of stores that don't even compete directly against each other (for the same customer purchases) - and where those two store operators are economically linked to each other (Google paying them many billions for being the default search engine) isn't that.

And Apple have been forcing (a particular subset) developers to use their store and in-app purchasing if they wish to market to customers using iOS (which, again, there's hardly any competition for except Android).

I don't think so. Not much, if any.

Take Spotify for example: There's no reality in which consumers today "discover" Spotify through the App Store - rather than Spotify relying on their advertising and word of mouth recommendations.


...for which (sideloaded apps) Apple - a direct competitor in music streaming - still intends to charge commission.


I completely disagree.
There's literally no difference in the transaction flow of purchasing a physical book or an ebook except the delivery online vs. by mail. Both of which Apple isn't even involved in (the book gets downloaded directly from the eBook store). And of course the the mandatory use of Apple's IAP that Apple forced upon certain types of transactions.


Let's call it unjustified differentiation then.
A. I don’t buy into the “duopoly” argument. Other options do exist, and just because two options are the most popular of a variety of options doesn’t mean it’s a “duopoly”. Besides, if governments actually cared about this and trying to promote anything else, they would be removing red tape, not adding it. More government regulation = harder for newcomers to even get off the ground (more red tape to comply with). The best solution, if one were to believe this to be a problem, is to actually remove more of this excessive regulation and allow the free market to decide, rather than piling on more red tape that essentially picks winners and losers by whoever has enough money to hire a large legal team to figure out what they can and can’t do to be in compliance with an excessive burden of regulation and red tape…

B. Developers are able to distribute their apps via sideloading in the EU. They are not forced to use the App Store. As to developers paying commissions for sideloaded apps, the only commissions I’m aware of is a small Core Technology Fee, for notarization and anti-malware screening services that Apple provides. I have yet to find a single source anywhere that suggests that Apple collects any commission on in-app purchases in sideloaded apps. And I’m pretty sure I’ve read the exact opposite, that developers don’t pay a commission for in-app purchases. PS. Just read back through the terms, only apps on the App Store using alternative payment options in the EU are mentioned as owing a reduced commission. Not developers who deliver sideloaded apps with alternative payment options…

We have no data to suggest that doesn’t still happen. I am sure that there are people who discover Spotify via the App Store, or otherwise via Apple’s marketing. But even if it doesn’t, that doesn’t change anything. Because Spotify signed a contract. If a company enters into a voucher contract with Target or some other store to advertise and house a rack of vouchers for their service, then they don’t get to have government force Target to continue to distribute their voucher cards for free when that vendor decides their own advertising is good enough, and they don’t need Target’s advertising. That would be wrong. They have the choice to either continue paying commissions on sales coming in from Target’s stores via the voucher program, or they can withdraw from it, and Target can take down the displays and marketing for their service vouchers, and the other store can actually lean in on their own resources. What you’re talking about isn’t these developers leaning in on their own resources. If Spotify thinks their own advertising and resources are good enough, then they can withdraw from Apple’s platform, and rely entirely on their own advertising and resources. Instead, they expect to continue to use Apple’s resources, benefit from the customers coming in through that avenue, but try to cheat Apple out of the commissions due by contract for the services Apple is providing. And that is wrong.

Apple’s platforms are that: Apple’s platforms. Apple created and own iOS, iPadOS, etc. They don’t even have to allow any third parties to distribute on their platform if they don’t want to in the first place. In fact, early on they didn’t, and the web was the only way third parties could provide services on Apple’s platforms… They can decide the terms for distributing software on their platform. Same thing as the Switch.

Furthermore, developers are not forced to distribute on Apple’s platforms at all if they don’t wish to. If Spotify really thought Apple’s terms were unfair, they could make their app for Android and other platforms and either completely ignore Apple’s platforms, or have iOS users use their web app. They don’t have to do business with Apple. They choose to, and chose to sign an agreement to pay commissions for services provided by Apple. And they continue to choose to do so, and expect to reap the benefits of Apple’s services on Apple’s platforms, but apparently now also want to violate the contract as well and not pay Apple for the services and access to Apple’s platform that Apple provides. Again, if developers think that Apple’s terms are unfair, no one is forcing them to agree to them, or to distribute on Apple’s platforms. They are choosing to do so, because Apple’s platform provides value to their product. Just like when game devs decide to distribute via the Switch’s platform, and all the benefits it provides.

And before you try to argue “but Spotify wouldn’t make money without Apple’s platforms so they have to use them”, A. They would make less money, not zero money. They make enough money that they can just take the losses. See how that works? B. Then that right there proves that Apple does provide value to Spotify. And apparently enough value that Spotify has agreed to the terms of distribution on Apple’s platform, and found it fair enough when they signed that contract…

Then I think we’re just going to continue to disagree on that point, because they are, in fact, very different kinds of transactions. Whether you believe they’re different enough in end result is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that they are different… And developers agreed to a set of terms and conditions in contract with Apple, and Apple is fairly and consistently applying those agreed on terms and conditions…
 
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Nobody and nothing is removing your choice to download everything from Apple.

And neither was or is the system really "locked down", when they had to introduce a proper but functionally substantially degraded ...well, "lockdown mode".

I haven't heard read you complaining about how all those years you/your iPhone weren't properly "locked down".


Google is under no obligation to keep Android open.
Neither are their Play services really openly accessible.
They are removing the choice to have a platform that supports app installs from one secure platform. People who aren’t as technologically literate, especially the two most vulnerable demographics with children and the elderly, would be at a pretty high risk of being tricked into sideloading malware onto their device… This is how many scams on Android, Windows, and macOS work.

“Lockdown Mode” just provides extra layers of protection that make it even more difficult for the very few and expensive types of attacks that are usually focused towards important targets like journalists or government officials to be effective. It doesn’t mean that iOS without “lockdown mode” enabled isn’t locked down enough for the majority of people…

And that’s where the free market can decide. If customers value an “open platform” approach, then they can choose Android, or other alternatives like HarmonyOS… If they prefer the advantages of a more secure and curated more “closed system”, then they can choose that. Clearly, many customers, knowing full well that iOS is more of a “closed system”, still value what Apple offers more than the “open system” alternatives…
 
And we're back to disagreeing.

Apple is a higher priority. iPhones NEED to be forced open as soon as possible. Consoles can come later, because they're less relevant to most of society.
you THINK they need to be forced open.

i don't.

explain why they need to?
what do you want/need to do you havent been able to for 15 years that you couldnt do on an Android device?
 
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