Apple Continues Working to Get Blood Oxygen Sensing Back in U.S. Apple Watches as Next Masimo Trial Begins

[diddl14]

Blood Oxygen Sensing using light was discovered almost 90 years ago. Masimo might be a leader in using this technology with their specific non-consumer hardware. Apple leapfrogged it by adding it to a smartwatch. There is zero reason to pay license fees for technology that is not owned, patented or let alone invented by Massimo. Masimo is clearly on the loosing side as they simply have no case.

 

[centauratlas]

Masimo rushed to create its own smart watch in 2022, deliberately copying several of Apple's patents.

This tells you much about the trollish nature of Maximo.

 

[CWallace]

It's completely unknown at this point. The injunction happened late 2023. Watch 10 launched nine months later - it's not clear if the hardware remains in U.S. models.

Multiple media sources have asked multiple Apple Watch staff "off the record" and they have said the hardware is present.

It would be too expensive to design two SiPs - one with the hardware and one without. Apple would also want to be able to reactivate it on US models once the ban would be lifted. It has been reported that the US units have a certain serial number range that WatchOS is designed to currently block the functionality. Once the ban is lifted, a new WatchOS patch can be pushed that enables it.

 

[centauratlas]

Apple isn't entering a licensing deal because they think they can eventually work around it, or whittle Massimo down to a point where it will be cheap to Apple.

Not to mention the patents only having 3-4 years left.

 

[ahaslam]

The blood oxygen sensor isn’t a must-have feature for me, but its exclusion would make me think twice before upgrading immediately next time.

 

[whitby]

I found the oxygen sensor to be completely useless, it never matched a dedicated finger mounted sensor (bought and used at home or one at the doctor's surgery or hospital). I could not care whether it is enabled or not. Don't care. Get one that works and I will use it. According to my Watch my Oxygen levels are always low, only to go to the surgery and find they are fine. This is not funny and alarming.

 

[rexhunt]

The blood oxygen sensor isn’t a must-have feature for me, but its exclusion would make me think twice before upgrading immediately next time.

Just one of the reasons why I won’t consider the AWU2

 

[JPack]

Multiple media sources have asked multiple Apple Watch staff "off the record" and they have said the hardware is present.

It would be too expensive to design two SiPs - one with the hardware and one without. Apple would also want to be able to reactivate it on US models once the ban would be lifted. It has been reported that the US units have a certain serial number range that WatchOS is designed to currently block the functionality. Once the ban is lifted, a new WatchOS patch can be pushed that enables it.

Can you share one of those media sources?

It wouldn't be a redesign of the SiP. The hardware change can be removal of certain LED drivers.

There's an assumption the ban will be lifted. The ITC ban happened after appeals.

Apple can easily add the hardware back on future models rather than enabling it on current models.

 

[jz0309]

Please provide a source to back up that claim Masimo declined to license to Apple when Tim Cook is the one who actually said Apple does not want to license them and would rather fight it out in court.

Apple won't license Masimo's patents despite Apple Watch import ban

Apple CEO Tim Cook implies there isn't any intention to license Masimo's blood oxygen detection to end the Apple Watch import ban.

appleinsider.com

Apple CEO Tim Cook implies there isn't any intention to license Masimo's blood oxygen detection to end the Apple Watch import ban.

Apple CEO Tim Cook told CNBC in a statement shared on live television that Apple is focused on appeals, implying the company has no intention to license Masimo's patents. While it seemed likely that was the case, the company hadn't said as much publicly until now.

"We're focused on appeal," Cook's statement said. "There's lots of reasons to buy the watch even without the blood oxygen sensor."


^^ That means Apple has the opportunity to license them, but is choosing not to.

I said "... seemingly declined ..."
You say "Tim Cook is the one who actually said Apple does not want to license ..." yet your quotes say "implies", not "said".

We're not in court here on MR, the whole story is not known to any of us including you and me, maybe apple early on tried to license with no success (or acceptable terms), maybe not. The statements of Cook you refer to are from when? I think from years into this case, not from the beginning.

What we do know is that the 2 companies are in court, AW since Jan 2024 have blood oxygen disabled in the US.

 

[Earendil]

this is a mess and it seems no party is giving an Too bad that the customer is being punished here and not getting this feature, but then again, it doesn't seem to impact sales much.

It’s probably not entirely out of the goodness of their hearts, but this doesn’t read like “not giving an inch”

“Masimo's W1 Freedom smart watch was the subject of the patent lawsuit that Apple filed against Masimo, and just last week, a jury decided that Masimo's devices had infringed on Apple Watch patents. Apple says that it only asked for $250 in damages, as the goal of the lawsuit wasn't profit, it was to get Masimo to stop copying the design of the Apple Watch.”

He's very willing. If he weren't, he wouldn't go on CNBC and other channels saying he envisions a deal being done. It's Apple that has been completely silent.

He’s also no longer the CEO. I think the phrase “talk is cheap” applies here.

Joe Kiani wasn't "kicked out." He resigned as CEO.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/masimos-joe-kiani-resigns-ceo-after-board-ouster-2024-09-25/

Masimo said on Wednesday founder Joe Kiani has decided to step down as the medical device maker's CEO, days after shareholders voted to remove him from the company's board

Was that sarcasm? Resigning entirely because you’re being kicked out is being kicked out in every sense of the term that we’re discussing. If we were discussing unemployment, then sure.

 

[Entilzha]

I found the oxygen sensor to be completely useless, it never matched a dedicated finger mounted sensor (bought and used at home or one at the doctor's surgery or hospital). I could not care whether it is enabled or not. Don't care. Get one that works and I will use it. According to my Watch my Oxygen levels are always low, only to go to the surgery and find they are fine. This is not funny and alarming.

And in my personal testing, my AW has always lined up with a finger mounted sensor. Odd, that.

 

[JPack]

He’s also no longer the CEO. I think the phrase “talk is cheap” applies here.

"Actions speak louder than words."

Masimo has licensed their tech to countless others. Apple is known for going nuclear. We've seen it with how they work with Qualcomm.

 

[MysteriousStain]

How does a company “illegally poach” the employees of another?

 

[whitby]

And in my personal testing, my AW has always lined up with a finger mounted sensor. Odd, that.

I suspect it is something to do with your physiology which is different to mine. If it works, use it. For me it is pointless.

 

[Macaholic868]

And in my personal testing, my AW has always lined up with a finger mounted sensor. Odd, that.

The underlying tech might work fairly well for some and not for others. It was accurate for me with my Series 7 and with sleep apnea having that sensor monitor my blood oxygen level while I’m sleeping is important. If my CPAP stops working well and I can’t hear it malfunctioning then having blood oxygen readings would clue me in. That’s why I didn’t upgrade from a 7 to a 10. I found a barely used graphite 9 that shipped before they shut off the sensor and upgrades to that instead.

That’ll be my watch until Apple sorts this out or adds in some must have feature that’s more important to me like a blood sugar sensor. Until then I’m not paying more to “upgrade” to a device that does less.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Fitbit (Google), Garmin, Philips...

My quick google search says neither Fitbit nor Garmin have a licensing agreement with Masimo. Phillips, of course, is a heavy player in Hospital Monitoring Devices where of course they have agreements with Masimo.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

"Actions speak louder than words."

Masimo has licensed their tech to countless others. Apple is known for going nuclear. We've seen it with how they work with Qualcomm.

The word is that Kiani was asking an overly ambitious licensing fee...by a lot. Like $100 per watch a lot. It's one thing to say "I'm willing to license" it's entirely another thing to have a reasonable conversation.

Apple has won about 90% of court cases on this matter. And yes, Kiani was essentially kicked out. No need for revisionist history here, it's all been well documented.

 

[Entilzha]

The underlying tech might work fairly well for some and not for others. It was accurate for me with my Series 7 and with sleep apnea having that sensor monitor my blood oxygen level while I’m sleeping is important. If my CPAP stops working well and I can’t hear it malfunctioning then having blood oxygen readings would clue me in. That’s why I didn’t upgrade from a 7 to a 10. I found a barely used graphite 9 that shipped before they shut off the sensor and upgrades to that instead.

That’ll be my watch until Apple sorts this out or adds in some must have feature that’s more important to me like a blood sugar sensor. Until then I’m not paying more to “upgrade” to a device that does less.

Yeah, I have an Ultra 2 that I got when Apple’s repair depot screwed up the repair on my stainless series 7. My local Apple Store went the extra distance to help me out, but the downside was that this happened a week after Apple stopped selling AW models with the blood oxy sensor.

I snagged a brand new in-box series 7 from Woot a couple months back because I also have sleep apnea (BiPAP for me, not CPAP!) and will wear it to sleep maybe four or five times a week. The Ultra is my daily wear, but the 7 comes in handy!

That said, if Apple enables the oxy sensor in my Ultra 2 tomorrow, my series 7 gets sold the next day.

 

[jz0309]

My quick google search says neither Fitbit nor Garmin have a licensing agreement with Masimo. Phillips, of course, is a heavy player in Hospital Monitoring Devices where of course they have agreements with Masimo.

That is interesting as I was under the impression too that at least some other smartwatch mfg do have license agreements with Masimo… if they don’t, what tech are they using? And/or are they violating said patents? More questions than answers

 

[DocMultimedia]

Blood Oxygen Sensing using light was discovered almost 90 years ago. Masimo might be a leader in using this technology with their specific non-consumer hardware. Apple leapfrogged it by adding it to a smartwatch. There is zero reason to pay license fees for technology that is not owned, patented or let alone invented by Massimo. Masimo is clearly on the loosing side as they simply have no case.

Yeah, the patent system with tech has become broken, and what some of these companies sue over is crazy. Imo of course.

 

[840quadra]

I found the oxygen sensor to be completely useless, it never matched a dedicated finger mounted sensor (bought and used at home or one at the doctor's surgery or hospital). I could not care whether it is enabled or not. Don't care. Get one that works and I will use it. According to my Watch my Oxygen levels are always low, only to go to the surgery and find they are fine. This is not funny and alarming.

Mine compared well with the clinical test equipment I baselined against. The same is true for my mom who was notified of an issue from her watch that has been a great thing for us.

But all bodies are different, and perhaps my physiology (and that of my mom) produces a sample area more compatible to Apple Watch style sensors.

 

[CarAnalogy]

Fitbit (Google), Garmin, Philips, and countless others license from Masimo. It's clear Masimo is willing to license their tech. When people suggest Masimo or the CEO wasn't willing to license, it's a random-ass guess with nothing backing it.

I wasn’t clear on that, but what is definitely clear now is that there will be no settling.

I wish Apple and other companies could be this principled on other issues. I’m not sure what the feud is about really. A disproportionate amount of companies seem to have downright personal disputes with Apple.

Kind of reminds me of the saying, if everyone you meet is an ******* it’s probably you that’s the *******.

But they’re so secretive it’s hard to tell. As you say, the public evidence doesn’t look great for Apple.

 

[ralphthemagi]

Blood Oxygen Sensing using light was discovered almost 90 years ago. Masimo might be a leader in using this technology with their specific non-consumer hardware. Apple leapfrogged it by adding it to a smartwatch. There is zero reason to pay license fees for technology that is not owned, patented or let alone invented by Massimo. Masimo is clearly on the loosing side as they simply have no case.

The reason to pay is that it inconveniences customer who buy products from one of (often THE) world’s largest, richest, and most powerful companies. If Masimo was “clearly losing” my Series 10 would have this feature enabled.

The real reason to not pay is that the feature is actually quite boring. By the time the watch is able to reliably detect low blood oxygen it’s probably too late. That’s kind of the situation with blood oxygen measurements in general. It’s really only useful in an active monitoring situation. Otherwise it’s just kind of mildly interesting.

 

[TheWraith]

Joe Kiani wasn't "kicked out." He resigned as CEO.

Right he resigned...just after the board voted to remove him. So sure, if you want that's a way to technically claim you weren't 'kicked out'...but most normal people would call a spade a spade.

 

[SegNerd]

I just sent Apple feedback about this a few days ago. I am asthmatic and need the oximeter. Why can’t they just cut a deal?