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What I'll never understand is why it is considered greedy to want to keep money that you've earned, but it's NOT considered greedy for someone to take someone else's money that the earner has earned and the taker hasn't.
Because that someone else isn't a "someone", but the governments who are responsible for funding the physical, legal, and social infrastructure on which the corporations rely to have a healthy consumer base (in the case of social) and a force to represent or defend their interests (in the case of physical or legal). What, you think only individual's taxes should finance trillion dollar war plane projects, aircraft carrier design and production, and a competent legal system to sue their rivals into oblivion?
 
The interesting thing is that the more taxes Apple pays overseas, the less additional tax they will have to pay to the U.S. when they bring the money back here. So if they lose this case it actually might result in them bring back cash to U.S. for a fat dividend to shareholders.

No, they would have to pay tax there and then again in the US (of course not if there was an amnesty)

That money stays where it is or goes to another country,
 
Again, NOT the point. Apple should, within the law, find every loophole and legal avenue to avoid paying taxes. That's smart business. My beef is that Tim lies to the public, and calls it "crap" when we point out he is in Ireland simply to pay the LOWEST amount of taxes he can. Period.

My argument is not "what's fair." My argument is that Tim is not being honest. That is all. Tim would like 0% tax, but since he can't have that, Ireland is the next best thing at 1.8%.
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Audit flags just went up in DC...

Except by the laws at the time, that's what Apple did. Ireland had the right to offer a 1.8% tax rate so Apple took it. The stupid design of the EU let Apple effectively use that tax rate legally passed throughout Europe so Apple did so.

The law needs to change and future taxes on Apple should be higher. My objection is the attempt to change it ex post facto and claim Apple owes taxes for all those past years. Governments can get away with it because they're the ones with the guns so Apple will probably have to pay. Doesn't make it right.
 
Because that someone else isn't a "someone", but the governments who are responsible for funding the physical, legal, and social infrastructure on which the corporations rely to have a healthy consumer base (in the case of social) and a force to represent or defend their interests (in the case of physical or legal). What, you think only individual's taxes should finance trillion dollar war plane projects, aircraft carrier design and production, and a competent legal system to sue their rivals into oblivion?

I hope you are not talking about USA.
They do a terrible job with infrastructure, the legal system (It's more like poker games) and healthy consumers
is a misnomer if I hav eever seen one:)
 
Funny, they call this a world economy, but each country is fighting for taxes being imposed on all ends. I think it could be really simple. In a world economy, you should pay taxes on the goods/services you sell/offer in the country of origin only. It shouldn't matter where the money ends up, only if it has been taxed already. If that were the case, Apple could easily bring back all it's "taxed" money back to the USA without fear of additional taxation.
 
I strongly believe that Apple MUST pay its fair share in taxes.

Whilst I don't believe it is breaking any laws, it is certainly taking full advantage of available loopholes to save paying taxes.

It is not breaking the law, but it is morally wrong by doing so.

If I have to pay my taxes in the country I live (UK), Apple has to pay taxes in the countries it does business. If those taxes are too high, that's tough.
 
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Stupid Apple. If they would have just brought profits home they wouldn't have this problem. Or stupid tax laws. Both really.
 
Uhh, he never said anything otherwise, nor should he be ashamed of that...?

Point me to the article where he says Apple is in Ireland solely to take advantage of the great tax rate. I'll shut up when I see that one.

You should always be ashamed of lying.
 
No, they would have to pay tax there and then again in the US (of course not if there was an amnesty)

That money stays where it is or goes to another country,

The taxes paid in the US are reduced by the taxes paid in the other country.

So if you are taxed at 20% in the other country and then bring it back to to the U.S. where the applicable tax rate is 35%, the company just pays the additional 15% to the U.S. The main issue is that overseas transactions are often structured where the tax rate is very low. Example is this Irish structure. So bringing back some cash often exposes the entire profit to almost the complete U.S. taxes.
 
Well in the U.S. conservatives generally seem to not feel like the government should get any money. Or at least they feel like the government should get a lot less money to use.

This! As the government grows so does their power. Government should be looked at as a large greedy beast. The more you give it, the more it grows, until it is out of control and too powerful. The government becoming the table you have to belly up to, to get all of your needs taken care of is an insane idea.
 
Remember, this is the same company that borrows money, as if they need to, to take advantage of the much smaller rate of paying back the "loan" than repatriating money back home. Again, perfectly legal, but if Tim would just say "we want to always pay the least amount of money we have to." I'd have no problem. Just be honest.
 
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Point me to the article where he says Apple is in Ireland solely to take advantage of the great tax rate. I'll shut up when I see that one.

You should always be ashamed of lying.

Not solely. The workforce speaks English and is educated. But it is the primary driver of the structure. You can google and find many articles. It is sometimes called the Double Irish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

I believe there are other tax advantages.
 
Funny, they call this a world economy, but each country is fighting for taxes being imposed on all ends. I think it could be really simple. In a world economy, you should pay taxes on the goods/services you sell/offer in the country of origin only. It shouldn't matter where the money ends up, only if it has been taxed already. If that were the case, Apple could easily bring back all it's "taxed" money back to the USA without fear of additional taxation.

That is called VAT (Value Added Tax) and Apple, or we the consumer, pay that tax. Mostly 21% on the product price or 60% of profit or more depending on the profit margin.
The issue is the additional corporate tax and this ain't that easy to calculate on a per country basis.
 
Funny that, we say exactly the same thing when we see people like Trump on our TVs - we think how can this be happening in what appears to be a sane society. :eek:
Because... no one can know it all. In the case of Trump, he is just another populist dictator like Hugo Chavez, the same script, the same campaign. But guess what? I know because I am Venezuela and I worked against Hugo Chavez and I did an study of that sort of characters because before Chavez there was Fidel Castro and another bunch. The big picture is that I have the knowledge but I can not know it all, you need too much time in life for that and not even, the best thing you can always do is to listen and even there, you will make mistakes.
 
Not solely. The workforce speaks English and is educated. But it is the primary driver of the structure. You can google and find many articles. It is sometimes called the Double Irish.

Everything else after the low tax rate is secondary, and wouldn't even be considered if Apple had to pay, say 12.5% tax. Can I say solely with 100% certainty, no. But it's somewhere between 99.99999999999999% and 100% in my opinion.
 
COULD?

LOL @ 1.8% TAX. So Tim said that he would NEVER bring the money back into the USA because a 35% tax hit was way too much. OK, I'll bite on that and agree that 35% may be a tad bit too much for a corporation. But, this shows that even 12.5% is way too much for dear old Tim, because he would rather pay 1.8%!!!! Remember when he said any idea of Apple avoiding taxes was "political crap?" Yeah, me too.

If Tim would ever tell the truth, he would let it be known that he's probably miffed they have to pay even 1.8% tax. 0% tax would be much better for growth, and the shareholders.

As if anyone with half a brain doesn't already know, Apple is in Ireland for ONE SINGLE THING-- TO AVOID PAYING TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nothing you tell me will ever change my mind on that, so don't even try.

EDIT: And since Apple continues to avoid all these taxes and *still* offers 16 GB storage options on iPhone, I hope they have to pay double the $8 billion. #whatsgoodforthegoose

You're right that's why they are there, and it's a good idea to do that. It's a good business practice to do that. It's Apple figuring out how to be responsible with their money. It's simply a sound decision to avoid taxes to the best of your ability and legally.

What is not sound, is the US tax rates. Our tax rates are theft by an ever growing government looking for more cash and mishandling its own books. What is the current amount of US debt? 17 trilion? 18 trillion? 19 trillion? Apple has billions in surplus BECAUSE THEY ARE DOING IT RIGHT! These countries that are demanding high taxes to pay for social programs are the failing businesses.
 
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No, Apple should pay fair taxes in countries where they operate, now they don't.

Here we go again. There is no such thing as someone paying "fair taxes." This isn't Little League baseball. It's legal or illegal. If Apple's processes were legal then they should be left alone, at least until the laws are changed. If they were illegal prosecute them.

Piggy little bureaucrats and politicians can't stand it when their oppressive and arbitrary laws are defeated, and they don't get their money. So they try to change the rules in mid stream. Let them eat cake.
 
Exactly. Why pay for the services that helped you generate your profits when everybody else can pay for them?

I'm not sure if Apple actually broke any laws (if they did they they should pay); But lets be clear, people and companies are ONLY responsible for following the LAW, they are not required to be fair. It's the government's job to make sure the laws are fair, not the people and companies following the law.

The speed limit on the freeways in the US is 65mph; one could argue that that is an undue danger, and that highway fatalities a would be eliminated if everyone drove 20MPH on the freeway; You may even try to drive 20 on the freeway, and you will be promptly ticketed for impeding traffic; because you are OBLIGATED to do what is legal and not what is "right".

 
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Why does anyone defend a multi-billion dollar company from paying their taxes considering how much they benefit from the rest of society?

I'll never ever understand the conservative mindset, it's rather nutty.
Because government's often fritter away money on frivolous things and wars. Increasing taxes on companies means more overhead costs and higher costs of goods and services. It also lowers profits which is bad for Wall Street. You wouldn't want to push for increased taxes that will lower the gains in your stock portfolio.

That all being said, I'm personally for increasing the taxes on businesses, but not as much as some people want. Tax rates on businesses used to be much, quite a bit higher just a few decades ago. They need to close the loopholes in the tax law, but at the same time give the companies a discounted rate to repatriate their cash. Then we can move forward at a more sustainable pace with scheduled increases over time.

As I always say, all things in moderation. But that's maybe just because I'm more of a political moderate/independent who likes to take good ideas from either side of the aisle. My belief is that either extreme is often bad. You can't suddenly take away a huge chunk of a business' money. But you can't let them keep hoarding it overseas either. Both are bad for our country. Everyone is so entrenched in their views on their side that they never get anything done and that is what drives me crazy.
 
I think the word you are looking for "waste" not "use"

Or at least they feel like the government should get a lot less money to WASTE.

Yep. Though they never seem to worry too much about military spending. And individually the politicians rarely want spending that goes to their State to be reduced. Their tax ideas always seem to work out to leaving more money in the hands of the rich (i.e., the job creators). It is always a tough sell though because if you don't reduce spending on the military and you don't suggest reduction of medicare or social security payments because the older voters will object, and you have to pay interest on debt, so there aren't any other material cost items to cut. Basically you only have 35% of the U.S. budget left to work with.
 
Why does anyone defend a multi-billion dollar company from paying their taxes considering how much they benefit from the rest of society?

I'll never ever understand the conservative mindset, it's rather nutty.

Tim Cook wants to know why you just called him a conservative.
 
I've heard it explained this way, not sure if it is entirely accurate, could someone else confirm?

John is headquartered in the US, and sells apples around the world for $1. His cost to produce the apples is $0.20 in China. If he sells an apple to Mary in France, he would owe tax on his profit of $0.80 in France. For simplicity, let's assume the tax rate is 20% in France. Of John's $0.80 profit, he pays France $0.16, leaving him with $0.64 of his original $0.80 profit. If John tries to bring his profit back to the US, it will be taxed again at 20% and he will end up with about $0.51 of his original $0.80 profit.

Now if John gets crafty, he sets up a subsidiary (which he controls) in Ireland to purchase apples from his Chinese supplier for $0.20, from which John buys the apples from at a price of $0.90. When Mary in France purchases an apple from John for $1.00, John has now only made a profit of $0.10 in France, while his subsidiary has made a profit of $0.70 in Ireland. Because the corporate tax rate in Ireland is only 3%, John's subsidiary only ends up paying $0.02 in tax on his $0.70 profit, and $0.02 in tax on his $0.10 profit in France. As of now, with the funds still in the EU John has saved $0.12 in tax on every apple sold, and effectively reduced his tax burden by 75% ($0.04 vs $0.16). Now John knows if he tries to bring his profit of $0.76 back to the US, they're going to tax it at 20%, so instead John just leaves it in Ireland (really a bank in NYC), and the cash piles up.

I think that is right. See this below. The U.S. is a residential tax treatment country. Most of the rest of the world is territorial. When Apple sells an iPhone in France it is very justifiable to say that the Apple store in France didn't produce the lion share of the profit. Instead the majority of the Profit is allocated to the intellectual property which happens to be owned by the Apple Irish Holding company.

Countries that tax income generally use one of two systems: territorial or residential. In the territorial system, only local income – income from a source inside the country – is taxed. In the residential system, residents of the country are taxed on their worldwide (local and foreign) income, while nonresidents are taxed only on their local income. In addition, a very small number of countries, notably the United States, also tax their nonresident citizens on worldwide income.

Countries with a residential system of taxation usually allow deductions or credits for the tax that residents already pay to other countries on their foreign income. Many countries also sign tax treaties with each other to eliminate or reduce double taxation. In the case of corporate income tax, some countries allow an exclusion or deferment of specific items of foreign income from the base of taxation.
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No, they would have to pay tax there and then again in the US (of course not if there was an amnesty)

That money stays where it is or goes to another country,

Yes, the money stays there. But generally I think the U.S. company gets a foreign tax credit. There are treaties to avoid double taxation. The issue is that often companies don't find it very hard to structure around paying the initial taxes in the foreign company. Or they at least pay a very low tax (like Apple does through its Irish structure). But there is a credit even though the initial tax stays in the foreign company.

From wikipedia:

A foreign tax credit (FTC) is generally offered by income tax systems that tax residents on worldwide income, to mitigate the potential for double taxation. The credit may also be granted in those systems taxing residents on income that may have been taxed in another jurisdiction. The credit generally applies only to taxes of a nature similar to the tax being reduced by the credit (taxes based on income) and is often limited to the amount of tax attributable to foreign source income. The limitation may be computed by country, class of income, overall, and/or another manner.

Most income tax systems therefore contain rules defining source of income (domestic, foreign, or by country) and timing of recognition of income, deductions, and taxes, as well as rules for associating deductions with income. For systems that separately tax business entities and their members, a deemed paid credit may be offered to entities receiving income (such as dividends) from other entities, with respect to taxes paid by the payor entities with respect to the income underlying the income recognized by the member. Systems with controlled foreign corporation rules may provide deemed paid credits with respect to deemed income inclusions under such rules. Some variations on the credit provide for a credit for hypothetical tax to encourage foreign investment (sometimes known as tax sparing).
 
I've heard it explained this way, not sure if it is entirely accurate, could someone else confirm?

John is headquartered in the US, and sells apples around the world for $1. His cost to produce the apples is $0.20 in China. If he sells an apple to Mary in France, he would owe tax on his profit of $0.80 in France. For simplicity, let's assume the tax rate is 20% in France. Of John's $0.80 profit, he pays France $0.16, leaving him with $0.64 of his original $0.80 profit. If John tries to bring his profit back to the US, it will be taxed again at 20% and he will end up with about $0.51 of his original $0.80 profit.

Now if John gets crafty, he sets up a subsidiary (which he controls) in Ireland to purchase apples from his Chinese supplier for $0.20, from which John buys the apples from at a price of $0.90. When Mary in France purchases an apple from John for $1.00, John has now only made a profit of $0.10 in France, while his subsidiary has made a profit of $0.70 in Ireland. Because the corporate tax rate in Ireland is only 3%, John's subsidiary only ends up paying $0.02 in tax on his $0.70 profit, and $0.02 in tax on his $0.10 profit in France. As of now, with the funds still in the EU John has saved $0.12 in tax on every apple sold, and effectively reduced his tax burden by 75% ($0.04 vs $0.16). Now John knows if he tries to bring his profit of $0.76 back to the US, they're going to tax it at 20%, so instead John just leaves it in Ireland (really a bank in NYC), and the cash piles up.
You forgot to mention that part of crafty John's wealth depends on this mechanism. Shareholders happiness too.
 
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