Apple decision about Skylake versus Broadwell microprocessors delaying MBA Retina?

[Republius]

I'm sure it's an improvement on Haswell but from what I'm getting it's not worth the upgrade. Let's be real, tick's are best skipped for tocks.

I'm reading the link that you sent me and it seems to confirm my suspicions. See the excerpts below.

I’ve been in touch with Mobilegeeks.de who are testing the Yoga 3 Pro now and have written up their first impressions (in German) I wanted to find out more about the fan. Yes, a fan is included with the Yoga 3 Pro. In some respects that will be a good thing as it increases the thermal ‘space’ for Turbo Boost to work. Over 50% of the CPU performance of Core M relies on their being enough scope for heating up as it overclocks. If the temperature is already too high or rises too quickly, Tube Boost can turn off and you’re left with a 1.1Ghz CPU which has nothing like the power of the previous Yoga 2 Pro.

Roland, the reviewer over at Mobilegeeks, points me to a forum thread on Notebookreview where there are benchmarks and evidence of throttling in tablet mode and in multi-threaded CPU tests. This confirms my worry about Core M. Intel can show nice high-speed tests in optimized casings but it’s up to the manufacturer to create the balance between size and performance. Having said that it’s disappointing that even with a fan and the high-end Core M 5Y70 the Yoga 3 Pro is not performing like and Ultrabook. In the Mobilegeek Cinebench 11.5 multi-cpu test the Yoga 3 Pro scored just 2.08 which is less than the Lenovo Yoga 11S with the Core i7 Y-series from last year and less than the original Lenovo Yoga 13. This is not a good test result. Here’s the performance figure slotted into our Ultrabook performance table. Note that the cheaper Surface Pro 3 wih Core i5 U-series is going to bring you nearly 50% more CPU power.

The Mobilegeeks first impressions review is here. (translated) and you’ll find positive comments about the keyboard and build, the screen and the weight. There are also positive comments about battery life which can go up to 9 hours in video playback mode but there are definitely issues to consider here.

If Broadwell cannot manifest true fanless design and is incapable of wireless charging, then the report (http://jackgmarch.com/2014/09/22/exclusive-12-macbook-air-design-details/) of Jack March as to what the MacBook Air Retina is likely to be would lead to a conclusion that Skylake will be utilized rather than Broadwell (though March assumes Broadwell).

And here is another article (http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/09/intel-corporation-launching-broadwell-skylake-chips/) suggesting the vast superiority of Skylake over the problematic Broadwell would arguably make it well worth the while of Apple to wait out in crafting a MacBook Air Retina.

 

[snorkelman]

You're working on basis they're only going to get/take one shot at it.

On past performance (C2Duo MBA and 2012 13" rMBP) they'd have no concern about having to take two.

By time folks get over how fantastic the screen is, the second one with enough chops to drive it properly and deliver all the other stuff will be getting ready to ship out the door

 

[Republius]

You're working on basis they're only going to get/take one shot at it.

On past performance (C2Duo MBA and 2012 13" rMBP) they'd have no concern about having to take two.

By time folks get over how fantastic the screen is, the second one with enough chops to drive it properly and deliver all the other stuff will be getting ready to ship out the door

While Apple certainly could change the device quickly after introducing it (though I would prefer to believe previous mistakes have been learned from rather than are likely to be repeated), my point is rather that the delay in the initial introduction of the MacBook Air Retina is due to the fact that the Broadwell microprocessor won't do what those who have leaked details about this MBA iteration claim is being sought. Thus, Apple is arguably waiting on the availability of the Skylake microprocessor - which will provide true fanless and wireless charging design - before it can produce such a MacBook Air Retina.

Every report on the MBA Retina has assumed a Broadwell microprocessor. But if you research Broadwell and Skylake you find that only the latter is going to be able to fit the design that has been reported, which also has the advantage of explaining the delay in announcing the product.

Broadwell is a problematic and disappointing generation of microprocessor that Intel cannot wait to move beyond. But many of you who are cynical and bitter as to your Apple experiences seem to think the company will embrace such suspect technology even with the Skylake fix just around the corner. I am new to all of this but would like to believe Apple is better than that - and the facts as they are dribbling out seem to support my claim in this instance. I agree with Gildarts that Apple will bypass Broadwell and wait for Skylake.

 

[snorkelman]

You're assuming they see either of those as mistakes, I don't believe that they do

Spreading features over two sales opportunities is often seen as preferable to throwing them all into the hat in one go. Hit the pent up demand for retina MBA's then follow that up 8 months or so later with all the other stuff to hoover up the hold-outs.

Not only that but a lot of folks who jumped in and bought the first one will convince themselves they've just got to have all the other stuff within a few months of the second release, when their original version hits 12 months old.

If that makes a cynic fair enough but I wouldn't class myself as bitter lol If they keep selling stuff that chimes with what I need I'll happily keep buying it, they stop selling that I'll stop buying without any hard feelings.

 

[motrek]

Of course in this particular instance the microprocessor will have significant impact on the form. Ostensibly Apple is trying to arrive at a super slim profile for the MacBook Air Retina, which can only be manifest with a microprocessor that eliminates the need for an internal fan.

Not sure if that's true. Notice that all the laptops that are thinner than the Airs still have fans. But Apple does like to put their fans at the hinge, under the keyboard, so maybe the fan height is the limiting factor in making the laptop thinner.

But I don't know about your assumption that Apple wants to make a thinner laptop. The MBA has never been the thinnest laptop. Not sure that Apple would start playing that game now.

If they came out with a redesign that kept a similar form factor to the 11" laptop but added a larger, higher-quality display (thinner bezels) then I think that would be just as well received as if they made the laptop an inconsequential amount thinner or lighter.

As an aside, given the weight Apple carries in the personal computer world, which is second-to-none, why aren't they in the habit of being the first manufacturer in the market with a product utilizing a brand new microprocessor?

They might just not care. Apple has its own engineering priorities. Look at cameras in cell phones. Instead of increasing megapixel count like everybody else, Apple has chosen to focus on other aspects of camera quality. Likewise with computers, any manufacturer can make a new laptop based on just-released Intel chips, but what practical difference does that make? Who really cares if you can buy a particular chip now or 6 months from now, except internet nerds?

Or -- it might have to do with practical engineering concerns. Apple is one of the largest laptop manufacturers in the world and if they design a laptop around a chip that might slip or not have the yields necessary to keep the supply chain full, that means lost sales and profits.

I recognize that there is some risk in doing such, as Lenovo is experiencing with the Yoga 3 Pro and the Intel Broadwell Y Core M microprocessor. But from all reports the Skylake microprocessor has had a very smooth and on-time gestation period - and it seems tailor-made for a slimmer and faster MBA Retina.

I think you're being too hard on Broadwell because Intel has set your expectations too high. The fact is that it seems to be a significant improvement over Haswell. Graphics are better, it apparently uses 30% less power than Haswell, and production has been delayed by a bit but not much.

But Intel has an unfortunate habit of overhyping at times and they've been hyping fanless designs for Broadwell, which anybody could have seen was impractical WAY in advance, and guess what, it does turn out to be impractical. So on that basis it's a disappointment and might seem like a "lemon" but if you ignore Intel's marketing hype, it's still a perfectly good chip.

 

[Republius]

Not sure if that's true. Notice that all the laptops that are thinner than the Airs still have fans. But Apple does like to put their fans at the hinge, under the keyboard, so maybe the fan height is the limiting factor in making the laptop thinner.

But I don't know about your assumption that Apple wants to make a thinner laptop. The MBA has never been the thinnest laptop. Not sure that Apple would start playing that game now.

If they came out with a redesign that kept a similar form factor to the 11" laptop but added a larger, higher-quality display (thinner bezels) then I think that would be just as well received as if they made the laptop an inconsequential amount thinner or lighter.



They might just not care. Apple has its own engineering priorities. Look at cameras in cell phones. Instead of increasing megapixel count like everybody else, Apple has chosen to focus on other aspects of camera quality. Likewise with computers, any manufacturer can make a new laptop based on just-released Intel chips, but what practical difference does that make? Who really cares if you can buy a particular chip now or 6 months from now, except internet nerds?

Or -- it might have to do with practical engineering concerns. Apple is one of the largest laptop manufacturers in the world and if they design a laptop around a chip that might slip or not have the yields necessary to keep the supply chain full, that means lost sales and profits.



I think you're being too hard on Broadwell because Intel has set your expectations too high. The fact is that it seems to be a significant improvement over Haswell. Graphics are better, it apparently uses 30% less power than Haswell, and production has been delayed by a bit but not much.

But Intel has an unfortunate habit of overhyping at times and they've been hyping fanless designs for Broadwell, which anybody could have seen was impractical WAY in advance, and guess what, it does turn out to be impractical. So on that basis it's a disappointment and might seem like a "lemon" but if you ignore Intel's marketing hype, it's still a perfectly good chip.

All fair enough.

I am only making two points at this juncture.

First, if the next iteration of MacBook Air with retina display is going to be fanless and wireless, as some contend, then I think it will have to be driven by Skylake rather than Broadwell. And that would explain the product's delay.

Second, Broadwell seems like a disappointing and problematic iteration from Intel that Apple may well be advised to bypass by waiting on Skylake (http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/09/intel-corporation-launching-broadwell-skylake-chips/). Does Apple really want to significantly change the MacBook Air and base it on a microprocessor that Intel cannot wait to get beyond?

 

[motrek]

...
Second, Broadwell seems like a disappointing and problematic iteration from Intel that Apple may well be advised to bypass by waiting on Skylake (http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/09/intel-corporation-launching-broadwell-skylake-chips/). Does Apple really want to significantly change the MacBook Air and base it on a microprocessor that Intel cannot wait to get beyond?

Depends on how much of a change it would be. As you've pointed out, Broadwell is a 'tock', meaning that probably minimal changes need to be made to existing Haswell products to switch them to Broadwell.

If Apple releases a refresh of a product, they might as well put the most recent Intel chip in it.

If Intel is selling these chips, I assume they work right. Intel doesn't have a track record of selling bad chips. The Pentium 4 was a stupid design but it did work as advertised. The only major Intel problem I can remember is FDIV from back in the... mid 90s?

 

[Gildarts]

Depends on how much of a change it would be. As you've pointed out, Broadwell is a 'tock', meaning that probably minimal changes need to be made to existing Haswell products to switch them to Broadwell.

If Apple releases a refresh of a product, they might as well put the most recent Intel chip in it.

If Intel is selling these chips, I assume they work right. Intel doesn't have a track record of selling bad chips. The Pentium 4 was a stupid design but it did work as advertised. The only major Intel problem I can remember is FDIV from back in the... mid 90s?

Actually, Broadwell is the "tick", Skylake and Haswell are "tocks".
Broadwell is the successor of Haswell. Haswell was produced as a 22nm chip while Broadwell is being produced on 14nm.

Which means there were significant manufacturing changes to be made to switch production from 22nm to 14nm. Which in turn could explain why Intel has been experiencing difficulties with manufacturing Broadwell. Skylake will also be 14nm (cannonlake, the successor of Skylake will be 10nm). Intel has already stated that Skylake is on schedule and has proven to be unproblematic which is in stark contrast to Broadwell.


What Republius and I are trying to say is:
Given the advancements that will be made with Skylake. Is it plausible that Apple will be skipping Broadwell altogether?

I imagine they don't want an iPad 3 fiasco all over again. A lot of customers were upset that the iPad 4 came out soon after the iPad 3. The iPad 3 only had retina display compared to the iPad 2, while the iPad 4 brought significant performance improvements which were not implemented in the iPad 3. Also, iPad 3 has had the shortest product life of any iPad. They quickly took it off market. And at that time, iPad was still a relatively new product with a relatively small user base. Compare that to the established MacBook user base, and count in that mac's are 2-3 times the price of an ipad, the blowout could definitely be something for Apple to be considering.

So, with that in mind. Wouldn't it make sense for Apple to skip Broadwell altogether for their next MacBook refresh? I (and Republius) mean, why would Apple let Intel, who is basically late to their own schedule, mess up their product line? It just doesn't make sense to release a retina MBA on Broadwell in june when it's almost a given fact that the MBP's will get Skylake in the fall.

Edit: Also, Tim Cook stated in the earnings call that Apple Watch will not be shipping in Q1 2015. Which could mean that it will be shipping after WWDC, Q2. That could give them space to keep WWDC about Apple Watch and OS X & iOS and keep everything else for the fall.

 

[leonw]

All fair enough.

I am only making two points at this juncture.

First, if the next iteration of MacBook Air with retina display is going to be fanless and wireless, as some contend, then I think it will have to be driven by Skylake rather than Broadwell. And that would explain the product's delay.

Second, Broadwell seems like a disappointing and problematic iteration from Intel that Apple may well be advised to bypass by waiting on Skylake (http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/09/intel-corporation-launching-broadwell-skylake-chips/). Does Apple really want to significantly change the MacBook Air and base it on a microprocessor that Intel cannot wait to get beyond?

What makes you believe that the next mba has to be fanless. Keep in mind that these are just rumors and assumptions ( yes, I know this is macrumors).
Because it has to be thin? The Yoga is thin and has a fan.
If Broadwell isn't good enough for a fanless mba, why would Skylake be?
Of what I understand: For retina you need a better gpu that comes with Broadwell. Skylake will not be a gpu improvement compared to Broadwell, will it? And will need a fan as well then. What I am wondering about is whether Broadwell means a different(thicker) formfactor than Skylake ( thinner). If not: why not release a Broadwell mba (1Q 2015) and upgrade to Skylake (4Q 2015). As said before and as other people mentioned as well: Apple does not have to release the all perfect machine in one go. It doesn't excist. Ever.
I prefer an early Broadwell first gen rMBA release ( that I won't buy) and an improved Skylake upgrade shortly after ( that I will buy).
There's lots of people buying a first gen and keeping it when it's upgraded,despite some issues. And there's people buying a first gen. and upgrading. It's a win win for Apple.

 

[Gildarts]

What makes you believe that the next mba has to be fanless. Keep in mind that these are just rumors and assumptions ( yes, I know this is macrumors).
Because it has to be thin? The Yoga is thin and has a fan.
If Broadwell isn't good enough for a fanless mba, why would Skylake be?
Of what I understand: For retina you need a better gpu that comes with Broadwell. Skylake will not be a gpu improvement compared to Broadwell, will it? And will need a fan as well then. What I am wondering about is whether Broadwell means a different(thicker) formfactor than Skylake ( thinner). If not: why not release a Broadwell mba (1Q 2015) and upgrade to Skylake (4Q 2015). As said before and as other people mentioned as well: Apple does not have to release the all perfect machine in one go. It doesn't excist. Ever.
I prefer an early Broadwell first gen rMBA release ( that I won't buy) and an improved Skylake upgrade shortly after ( that I will buy).
There's lots of people buying a first gen and keeping it when it's upgraded,despite some issues. And there's people buying a first gen. and upgrading. It's a win win for Apple.

Ofcourse Skylake will have better gpu performance compared to Broadwell. It's Moore's law. Do you honestly expect them to release Skylake with worse or equal gpu performance to Broadwell?

As far as I know, Haswell was an improvement, gpu performance wise, over Ivy Bridge. I see no reason why that has to be different with now Skylake and Broadwell.

Tim Cook has stated in the earnings call that there isn't anything shipping in Q1 2015.

Edit: Corrected some details about the iPad 3 fiasco.

 

[Republius]

Actually, Broadwell is the "tick", Skylake and Haswell are "tocks".
Broadwell is the successor of Haswell. Haswell was produced as a 22nm chip while Broadwell is being produced on 14nm.

Which means there were significant manufacturing changes to be made to switch production from 22nm to 14nm. Skylake will also be 14nm (cannonlake, the successor of Skylake will be 10nm). Intel has already stated that Skylake is on schedule and has proven to be unproblematic which is in stark contrast to Broadwell.


What Republius and I are trying to say is:
Given the advancements that will be made with Skylake. Is it plausible that Apple will be skipping Broadwell altogether?

I imagine they don't want an iPad 3 fiasco all over again. A lot of customers were upset that the iPad 3 came out soon after the iPad 2. Also, iPad 3 has had the shortest product life of any iPad. They quickly took it off market. And at that time, iPad was still a relatively new product with a relatively small user base. Compare that to the MacBook user base, and count in that mac's are 2-3 times the price of an ipad, the blowout could definitely be something for Apple to be considering.

So, with that in mind. Wouldn't it make sense for Apple to skip Broadwell altogether for their next MacBook refresh? I (and Republius) mean, why would Apple let Intel, who is basically late to their own schedule, mess up their product line? It just doesn't make sense to release a retina MBA on Broadwell in june when it's almost a given fact that the MBP's will get Skylake in the fall.

Yep.

In addition, Broadwell is a problem child. Not only has it been delayed due to glitches, but where it has come out, with the Lenovo Yoga 3 Pro, there are issues. Intel is not even talking up Broadwell, though it is just coming out; they are talking up Skylake. Skylake, as you say, has reportedly been smooth sailing and is right on schedule as a chip Intel says will manifest significant improvement in speed and efficiency. That is the argument for waiting on Skylake.

As to evidence that Apple will wait on Skylake, Intel has not named Apple as among the manufacturers coming out with products using Broadwell; if Apple wanted to use Broadwell on a MBA Retina it would have had first call on the chips and beaten the Yoga 3 Pro to the punch; and the purported fanless and wireless design of the MBA Retina is beyond the capabilities of Broadwell and will require Skylake. Everyone agrees the MBA Retina has been delayed, and the microprocessor issue makes the most sense as to why.

Apple is not going to smack Intel publicly by announcing it decided to pass on Broadwell (and forfeit huge Christmas sales of a MBA Retina in the process) to wait for Skylake. Hopefully Apple is just going to wait until they can announce the MBA Retina with the superior Skylake chip and let folks draw their own conclusions as to why they did not use Broadwell.

Customers should not accept dated and inferior technology in new iterations of Apple products. It would be nice if Apple felt the same way from manufacturing and marketing perspectives.

 

[Gildarts]

Yep.

In addition, Broadwell is a problem child. Not only has it been delayed due to glitches, but where it has come out, with the Lenovo Yoga 3 Pro, there are issues. Intel is not even talking up Broadwell, though it is just coming out; they are talking up Skylake. Skylake, as you say, has reportedly been smooth sailing and is right on schedule as a chip Intel says will manifest significant improvement in speed and efficiency. That is the argument for waiting on Skylake.

As to evidence that Apple will wait on Skylake, Intel has not named Apple as among the manufacturers coming out with products using Broadwell; if Apple wanted to use Broadwell on a MBA Retina it would have had first call on the chips and beaten the Yoga 3 Pro to the punch; and the purported fanless and wireless design of the MBA Retina is beyond the capabilities of Broadwell and will require Skylake. Everyone agrees the MBA Retina has been delayed, and the microprocessor issue makes the most sense as to why.

Apple is not going to smack Intel publicly by announcing it decided to pass on Broadwell (and forfeit huge Christmas sales of a MBA Retina in the process) to wait for Skylake. Hopefully Apple is just going to wait until they can announce the MBA Retina with the superior Skylake chip and let folks draw their own conclusions as to why they did not use Broadwell.

Customers should not accept dated and inferior technology in new iterations of Apple products. It would be nice if Apple felt the same way from manufacturing and marketing perspectives.

And I would add to that, that the rumors of the retina MBA being delayed suggest that there are issues with components (screen, etc). Which means, production hasn't even started. Which means that they could still switch/wait for Skylake and sort out the components issues in the mean time. Especially if they are aiming for fall 2015.

If you look at the time line and you take into account that there were absolutely no Hardware announcements at WWDC this year. And you assume that it will be the same in 2015. It would seem plausibel that the iPhones, MacBooks & iPads are all getting refreshed in the fall.

And there is no reason to be pushing Broadwell in the fall as IDF 2015 (which will also be taking place in the fall) is going to be completely in the spirit of new Skylake notebooks (just like how this year's IDF was in the spirit of Broadwell notebooks).

 

[Republius]

And I would add to that, that the rumors of the retina MBA being delayed suggest that there are issues with components (screen, etc). Which means, production hasn't even started. Which means that they could still switch/wait for Skylake and sort out the components issues in the mean time. Especially if they are aiming for fall 2015.

If you look at the time line and you take into account that there were absolutely no Hardware announcements at WWDC this year. And you assume that it will be the same in 2015. It would seem plausibel that the iPhones, MacBooks & iPads are all getting refreshed in the fall.

And there is no reason to be pushing Broadwell in the fall as IDF 2015 (which will also be taking place in the fall) is going to be completely in the spirit of new Skylake notebooks (just like how this year's IDF was in the spirit of Broadwell notebooks).

I am wondering what the earliest date would be that Apple could realistically come out with a MacBook Air Retina using Skylake? Clearly the next Apple product announcements will include availability of the Apple Watch, so I am wondering if a MBA Retina with Skylake could be readied with it?

I was hoping I could purchase a MacBook Air Retina soon, though unfortunately what I am researching indicates that Apple ought to and likely will wait until they can put Skylake in it.

 

[Gildarts]

I am wondering what the earliest date would be that Apple could realistically come out with a MacBook Air Retina using Skylake? Clearly the next Apple product announcements will include availability of the Apple Watch, so I am wondering if a MBA Retina with Skylake could be readied with it?

I was hoping I could purchase a MacBook Air Retina soon, though unfortunately what I am researching indicates that Apple ought to and likely will wait until they can put Skylake in it.

This is what I'm afraid of as well. Assuming Apple Watch gets released at WWDC 2015 that might also be a possibility for Apple to release a retina MBA. I would consider WWDC the earliest date.

That way, they could profit from the back2school sales boost.

I'm really hoping that this will not be the case and that they will keep WWDC 2015 software focused just like WWDC 2014.

Intel has really screwed up. If they were on schedule this year Broadwell MacBooks would already be out and we would definitely be getting Skylake in 2015.

Luckily for me, I've decided to go for the retina MBP (with Skylake) instead of the retina MBA (whatever processor). It seems I'll benefit greatly performance wise. The MBP apparently is a good bit more powerful than the MBA. I always assumed this difference was small but it seems to be quite substantial.

 

[Republius]

This is what I'm afraid of as well. Assuming Apple Watch gets released at WWDC 2015 that might also be a possibility for Apple to release a retina MBA. I would consider WWDC the earliest date.

That way, they could profit from the back2school sales boost.

I'm really hoping that this will not be the case and that they will keep WWDC 2015 software focused just like WWDC 2014.

Intel has really screwed up. If they were on schedule this year Broadwell MacBooks would already be out and we would definitely be getting Skylake in 2015.

Luckily for me, I've decided to go for the retina MBP (with Skylake) instead of the retina MBA (whatever processor). It seems I'll benefit greatly performance wise. The MBP apparently is a good bit more powerful than the MBA. I always assumed this difference was small but it seems to be quite substantial.

When is WWDC each year?

Is Apple truly hostage to Intel in terms of these microprocessors? Nobody else makes a product to compete?

On another thread someone said that the current MacBook Air and MacBook Pro Retina perform similarly based on the fact that the retina screen takes so much more power to drive.

The argument is that the extra power the MBP Retina packs is needed for the retina screen such that it performs other tasks only slightly faster than the MBA.

 

[motrek]

Actually, Broadwell is the "tick", Skylake and Haswell are "tocks".
Broadwell is the successor of Haswell. Haswell was produced as a 22nm chip while Broadwell is being produced on 14nm.

Sorry, can't seem to keep the words straight.

What Republius and I are trying to say is:
Given the advancements that will be made with Skylake. Is it plausible that Apple will be skipping Broadwell altogether?

I'm sure they will use whatever chip makes sense at the time. I imagine it would take very little engineering effort to switch a product from Haswell to Broadwell, so if Apple has a choice between the two at some point, might as well go with Broadwell, right? It doesn't matter if it's just an incremental improvement vs. Haswell or not, it's still an improvement.

Ultimately it's fairly irrelevant. Broadwell is an incremental improvement over Haswell and from what I've read, Skylake is an incremental improvement over that. So wherever you jump on-board on the product cycle, you're only doing somewhat better than the last generation and somewhat worse than the next. Unfortunately it seems like the days are over when your next computer will be twice as fast as your current one.

 

[MacSumo]

Skylake is going to be bringing Thunderbolt 3, WiGig, Wireless charging, fanless design, 4K graphics, and tons of other stuff.

Broadwell just brings better graphics and a fanless design.

I'm still debating on MBA vs. MBP but I'm definitely, undoubtedly, skipping Broadwell.

Then broadwell brings nothing to the table for the rMBP.

Why would anyone want to buy a broadwell rMBP, old and new customers alike, if all the future proofing features aren't included?

Update:
Broadwell rMBP should at least come with TB3 for 5k output, and better battery life with some performance improvements.

 

[leman]

In terms of 4K graphics... ... is this to do with the integrated graphics (support for 4K?) or something else? I was under the impression that graphics card capability was the only thing that prevents 4K.

We've had integrated GPUs that can easily drive a retina display since Sandy Bridge, so that is certainly not a problem. I think the big hurdle for the retina MBA is the power consumption of the display. The rMBP had to increase the size of the battery by around 20% to adjust for it.

 

[motrek]

...
Skylake is going to be bringing Thunderbolt 3, WiGig, Wireless charging, fanless design, 4K graphics, and tons of other stuff.

Broadwell just brings better graphics and a fanless design.
...

Didn't see this until just now but not clear on what it all means. Skylake is the code name for a set of processors. Not sure what it has to do with Thunderbolt, Wifi, or charging (wireless or otherwise).

As for fanless designs, that's just an issue of crippling a processor enough that it can run fanless... any processor Intel has made in the last X years could be said to be fanless at a certain frequency/voltage.

4K graphics -- I believe Haswell supports that just fine?

After reading the Wikipedia page about Skylake the improvements sound pretty mundane to me. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Gildarts]

Forgive me gentleman,

I have to elaborate/correct some things.

Thunderbolt 3 will only be supported on the Skylake architecture (and onwards). It will not be supported on Broadwell! It will be bringing bandwidth speeds up to 40Gbit/s.
See more info here

WiGig is a new wifi standard, also coming with Skylake but unlike Thunderbolt 3 not necessarily limited to Skylake. It will also be integrated with Broadwell.

WiGig is 3 times faster then wifi 802.11.ac.

For wireless charging and connectivity watch this demo

This can also be implemented in Broadwell but I don't know if it will be. Intel did give a resembling demo at Computex.
You can watch that here

4K is possible now yes, but how sustainable is it at Haswell? Broadwell is expected to deliver 4 times the gpu performance of Haswell.

Skylake is expected to improve on Broadwell.

The point is. Broadwell is going to have a very short life span across notebooks.

 

[Gildarts]

When is WWDC each year?

Is Apple truly hostage to Intel in terms of these microprocessors? Nobody else makes a product to compete?

On another thread someone said that the current MacBook Air and MacBook Pro Retina perform similarly based on the fact that the retina screen takes so much more power to drive.

The argument is that the extra power the MBP Retina packs is needed for the retina screen such that it performs other tasks only slightly faster than the MBA.

WWDC is traditionally held in June.

I have read the same thing about the MBA performance vs. MBP however I do not believe it to be true. Upon observation and logical reasoning I came to the following conclusions.

Firstly, the highest-end available processor for the MBA is a 1.7GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i7, Turbo Boost up to 3.3GHz. While the rMBP base model comes with a 2.6GHz Dual-core Intel Core i5, Turbo Boost up to 3.1GHz, with the highest available processor being a 3.0GHz Dual-core Intel Core i7, Turbo Boost up to 3.5GHz.

Secondly, the MBA's come with a standard of 4GB of RAM while the MBP comes with a standard 8GB of RAM. This significantly improves performances as through my own observations of my 11" mid 2012 i5 MBA with 4GB of RAM I've experienced the processor getting heated up just through watching Netflix or a downloaded movie to the point where it's not comfortable to have it on my lap.
I do have to note that Netflix performs way better now that they have moved away from Silverlight to HTML5.
I haven't updated to Yosemite yet but I hear Yosemite brings performance optimizations (at least for Netflix/Safari).

Anyways, so the second point is that there is enough RAM to spare with the rMBP's which enables the rMBP's to easily outperform the MBA's.

Thirdly and lastly, the gpu differences with the MBA's having a Intel HD Graphics 5000 and the MBP's having a Intel Iris Graphics. Needless to say, the Iris outclasses the HD 5000.

In conclusion the specs of the MBP's are significantly higher than the MBA's. The notion that the retina display brings down performance of the MBP's to MBA level seems ridiculous to me.

It might have been true with the Ivy Bridge retina MacBook Pro's but I don't believe that to be the case with the Haswell generation.

Oh, and I forgot the price difference. The price difference is not only there for the retina display. As illustrated the specs are significantly higher.

So to me, the notion that the MBA performs equal to the MBP is complete and utter nonsense. Just based on RAM any (non-costum) model MBA would never perform equal to any MBP.

 

[motrek]

Forgive me gentleman,

I have to elaborate/correct some things.

Thunderbolt 3 will only be supported on the Skylake architecture (and onwards). ...

I'm sure Broadwell will have a relatively short run in Apple's product line but that's just because it's going to be available for a shorter amount of time.

While the laundry list of features on the Skylake platform sounds nice, I don't see anything that makes it futureproof vs. Broadwell or even Haswell.

If a computer isn't futureproof, that means it won't be able to do the same things or run the same software as computers released in the future.

A good example of this is Macs released as late as 2008 (?) with 32-bit EFIs which are now unable to run current versions of OS X. Those computers were not future proof.

But just because a computer has e.g. Thunderbolt 3 vs. Thunderbolt 2 doesn't make it future proof, since presumably anything that's compatible with Thunderbolt 3 will also be backwards compatible with Thunderbolt 2.

"Future proof" doesn't simply mean newer and faster. It's assumed that a newer computer will be ... newer ... and faster than an older computer, so future proof has to mean something more specific.

----------

...
In conclusion the specs of the MBP's are significantly higher than the MBA's. The notion that the retina display brings down performance of the MBP's to MBA level seems ridiculous to me.
...

For any discussion like this we have to be more specific about what's being done using what software.

If you're using software that doesn't do a lot with graphics (e.g., display 3-D graphics or rely on OpenCL) then what kind of display you have or what kind of graphics chip really doesn't matter.

If you're using software that doesn't use much RAM then it won't matter at all if you have 4GB or 8GB.

For a lot of cases I would expect a MBA to perform about the same as a MBP, since most things people do don't stress graphics or RAM.

 

[Gildarts]

I'm sure Broadwell will have a relatively short run in Apple's product line but that's just because it's going to be available for a shorter amount of time.

While the laundry list of features on the Skylake platform sounds nice, I don't see anything that makes it futureproof vs. Broadwell or even Haswell.

If a computer isn't futureproof, that means it won't be able to do the same things or run the same software as computers released in the future.

A good example of this is Macs released as late as 2008 (?) with 32-bit EFIs which are now unable to run current versions of OS X. Those computers were not future proof.

But just because a computer has e.g. Thunderbolt 3 vs. Thunderbolt 2 doesn't make it future proof, since presumably anything that's compatible with Thunderbolt 3 will also be backwards compatible with Thunderbolt 2.

"Future proof" doesn't simply mean newer and faster. It's assumed that a newer computer will be ... newer ... and faster than an older computer, so future proof has to mean something more specific.

----------



For any discussion like this we have to be more specific about what's being done using what software.

If you're using software that doesn't do a lot with graphics (e.g., display 3-D graphics or rely on OpenCL) then what kind of display you have or what kind of graphics chip really doesn't matter.

If you're using software that doesn't use much RAM then it won't matter at all if you have 4GB or 8GB.

For a lot of cases I would expect a MBA to perform about the same as a MBP, since most things people do don't stress graphics or RAM.

You're definitely right with the first part. But I do not know the full extent of the features of Skylake. I'm going of of what Intel has presented so far. I'm guessing not all the features have been announced. Republius has said that Intel stated that the Skylake platform will bring the most technical advancements compared to the last 10 years. Or words to that effect, ask Republius.


About the second part of your comment. Sure, you're right they might load websites in safari at the same speed. But that's not what we're talking about here.

Republius stated he had read(text in brackets were added by me):

(That) the argument that (the MBA performs equal to the MBP) is that the extra power the MBP Retina packs is needed for the retina screen such that it performs other tasks only slightly faster than the MBA.

Implying that the higher specs we're needed just because of the Retina display. Which of course is complete nonsense.

And we haven't even talked about the TDP differences between the two. My main point is, there's no way that if both devices are pushed to the limit the MBA performs equal to the MBP. It will be outclassed.

The upgraded specs in the MBP are not there solely for the Retina display.

 

[Tough Guy]

If Apple manufactures a MacBook Air Retina with the Broadwell Y Core M microprocessor, it may not be much of a technological advancement other than in slimness and the addition of the retina screen.

That sounds like a huge technological advancement to me.

 

[motrek]

... My main point is, there's no way that if both devices are pushed to the limit the MBA performs equal to the MBP. It will be outclassed.

The upgraded specs in the MBP are not there solely for the Retina display.

Meh. I'm not super impressed with the MBP's specs vs. the MBA. The MBA has enough thermal headroom to run its CPU at maximum clock speed indefinitely. So you're basically talking about a 3.1GHz CPU vs. a 2.7GHz CPU if we're considering base models. That 13-14% difference isn't enough to get me too excited.

Now if you're doing something that requires a bunch of RAM or a bunch of GPU power then that's a different story, but most things don't.

So I'm not surprised at all if some people are claiming that the MBA performs similarly to the MBP, because it does, regardless of retina display or whatever.