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dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,528
14,865
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
Okay. But that doesn't answer the question. I'm just curious about what you mean when you ask for alternative default apps.
"First, it means apps that come pre-installed on your iPhone when it ships to you from the factory (or when you reset the phone to factory settings). In the second case, default apps are apps that are always used to do a certain thing. For example, when you tap a website link in an email, it always opens in Safari."

There are several calendars which work better
Rather have Outlook, or Proton than Mail
Overcast instead of podcast
Flickr instead of photos
etc...
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,745
10,845
There are several calendars which work better
Rather have Outlook, or Proton than Mail
Overcast instead of podcast
Flickr instead of photos
etc...
I understand what alternative apps are and use them frequently, but what functionality are you looking for to call them "default". For example, I don't understand how making Overcast a "default" app would change my usage of Overcast in any way. Same with Flickr.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't understand what you are referring to functionality wise. Are you just talking about Siri?
 

scottrichardson

macrumors 6502a
Jul 10, 2007
697
270
Ulladulla, NSW Australia
From an outside perspective, I have no idea how regulators can even attempt to tell a company how to build their products.

It’s Apple’s creation. A specific design and platform that we all buy into. If someone doesn’t like it, shop elsewhere. This is not some crowdsourced consortium of users who dictate what the products should be.

Apple could suddenly remove the App Store and only allow the phone to have Apple made apps and that is still their choice.

I swear the world has become so caught up in minutia and control.
 

planteater

Cancelled
Feb 11, 2020
892
1,679
So you would leave a "wide open" for another "wide open"? That makes little sense.
Can you elaborate?
Sure it makes sense. You may have missed the keyword “firewall”. If they are both are open, but Android is the only of the two with a firewall, then that’s what I would use - assuming the firewall is completely configurable. That I don’t know yet as I have zero interest in Android or Google for that matter. But if I found that firewalls available were sufficient, I’d move - delete all Google apps, then globally block all the spyware, analytics, etc.
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,528
14,865
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
I understand what alternative apps are and use them frequently, but what functionality are you looking for to call them "default". For example, I don't understand how making Overcast a "default" app would change my usage of Overcast in any way. Same with Flickr.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't understand what you are referring to functionality wise. Are you just talking about Siri?

Then you don't fully understand "default". Take a look at the definition I put in my last post.
When the system calls a default app, I want that app instead of the app Apple forces me to use.
 

jakey rolling

macrumors 6502a
Mar 8, 2022
529
1,167
That more begs the question, why purchase it in the first place? There are plenty of 1000 quid phones that offer other choices.
Because there's more to consider when buying a smartphone than just "does it include vendor lock-in?" Especially when most consumers aren't at all aware of that particular choice to begin with.
 
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dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,528
14,865
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
Sure it makes sense. You may have missed the keyword “firewall”. If they are both are open, but Android is the only of the two with a firewall, then that’s what I would use - assuming the firewall is completely configurable. That I don’t know yet as I have zero interest in Android or Google for that matter. But if I found that firewalls available were sufficient, I’d move - delete all Google apps, then globally block all the spyware, analytics, etc.

Okay. Android does not come with a FW.
Having used Android for many years, including "sideloading", I have yet to see a need for one. IMO.
Android 12 comes with a "sort of" FW: https://www.xda-developers.com/google-restricted-networking-mode-android-12/

If a FW is your concern, I would suspect that if iOS was "wide open", the ability to add a FW would come shortly.
 

jakey rolling

macrumors 6502a
Mar 8, 2022
529
1,167
I can see the following leaving the AppStore right away.
1) Adobe
2) Microsoft
Why do you think either of these would leave the App store? Both companies already license their products via a subscription that is managed completely outside Apple's ecosystem and isn't bound to Apple's extortionate payment rules. At this point, Apple's store only provides a pure App distribution conduit. Unless Apple were to actively hinder their ability to distribute Microsoft or Adobe applications (something I'm sure you would agree would be incredibly foolish for Apple to do), then there would be no reason whatsoever for Adobe or Microsoft to stop distributing software through the Apple app store.

3) Any game developer owned by Microsoft (which is a growing list now)
Perhaps - but that is only because this is an area where Apple have consistently been adverse to developers.
4) Any developer that makes similar apps to Microsoft or Adobe. Why stay?
You think? Sounds like a career-limiting move to me, considering anyone trying to compete with Adobe or Microsoft would want to at least be visible on the main platform from which Adobe and Microsoft would distribute their apps. Again, though, we're both assuming opposite things about your #1 and #2 points, so that's going to lead to different conclusions.

If any developer has the ability to either provide their own means to get onto iOS (web install, side load, or 3rd party store). They will leave. There is zero reason to stay, as they are big enough already and already have the infrastructure to do everything Apple does. Smaller developers not so much. It could be split between staying and going or being on both. Apps that had been free have no care about stores. They will be on both/all so long as they aren't being charged to much or anything to do so.
Again, that all really depends on the actual value Apple's App store provides to developers and/or end users. I personally assume that most users in here who say they like Apple's app store model are being honest about that assessment, and so they find at least some value in that model. Perhaps you think Apple provides no value at all, in which case I find zeal with which you are protesting a change to that model very peculiar.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,098
23,744
Gotta be in it to win it
Ok let me sum up, based on the latest MR antitrust, etc. headlines.

Apple should leave the US,EU(27 countries ),UK,AU,BR,CN,KR,RU[✅] ?

Not many countries left to make money…
Need a good product to make money. To wit apples revenue. After the EU gets done with its nanny rules, it’s debatable if there is a good product. Might be cheaper to pull out.
 

jakey rolling

macrumors 6502a
Mar 8, 2022
529
1,167
Apple is currently selling access to the platform through the App Store. Forcing Apple to allow third-party app stores without compensation would be giving away that value (access to the platform) for free.
That "platform" as you call it is a general purpose operating system running on computing devices owned by the people who bought them. Apple doesn't have to do anything other than publish the APIs for their operating system in order for a developer to develop software for it. They don't even have to write Xcode or any other toolset for development - they only do so to "sell access to the platform" that they artificially locked in the first place.

"Selling access to the platform" is just a weasily way to say "selling access to device owners."

Apple doesn't own its customers. When I develop an application, whether it be on iOS or Android or Mac OS or Windows, I am serving my customers. Not Apple's customers, not Google's customers, not Microsoft's customers. My customers. There is no reasonable excuse why I should need to buy "access" to my customers so that they can use the application that I create for them.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,745
10,845
Then you don't fully understand "default". Take a look at the definition I put in my last post.
When the system calls a default app, I want that app instead of the app Apple forces me to use.
I do fully understand what default means. I just don’t understand the use cases outside of the browser and mail sheet within the context of how iOS works.

For example, I use Overcast for podcasts. I have never accidentally opened Apple Podcasts even though it’s the default in some way. Th whole iOS model involves directly sharing objects using the share sheet, so the notion of default doesn’t really come up for me.

Where I do understand default is needed is with Siri. But that easy to fake with shortcuts.
 
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sideshowuniqueuser

macrumors 68030
Mar 20, 2016
2,809
2,816
Had Apple not locked down iOS in the beginning, and ran it much more like macOS from the start...does anyone truly believe: 1) they would have made any less money (measurably)? 2) the iPhone would not be secure?

Both ideas are very doubtful.
1) Yeah, I think they've made an absolute truck ton of money from the App Store Apple Developer Tax, and that is absolutely why they are fighting so hard to not open iOS/iPadOS like macOS. In fact, I bet they wish they could close up macOS too, and charge their 15/30% Apple Developer Tax on all macOS apps too. I bet they have thought hard about the possibilities of it, but the reality is they'd have to kill off the file system, terminal, and pretty much all the *nix software that people install, thus it's in the way too hard basket, thank Christ.

2) I agree with you on this one. macOS being proof in point.
 

sideshowuniqueuser

macrumors 68030
Mar 20, 2016
2,809
2,816
Had Apple not locked down iOS in the beginning, and ran it much more like macOS from the start...does anyone truly believe: 1) they would have made any less money (measurably)? 2) the iPhone would not be secure?

Both ideas are very doubtful.
1) Yeah, I think they've made an absolute truck ton of money from the App Store Apple Developer Tax, and that is absolutely why they are fighting so hard to not open iOS/iPadOS like macOS. In fact, I bet they wish they could close up macOS too, and charge their 15/30% Apple Developer Tax on all macOS apps too. I bet they have thought hard about the possibilities of it, but the reality is they'd have to kill off the file system, terminal, and pretty much all the *nix software that people install, thus it's in the way too hard basket, thank Christ.

That said, my signature says what I really think about long term profits. Little Timmy's Apple ignores this in many ways, and it is damn annoying.

2) I agree with you on this one. macOS being proof in point.
 

sideshowuniqueuser

macrumors 68030
Mar 20, 2016
2,809
2,816
It was more locked down at the start and opened up to external apps later with a store that mimicked Steam(who seem to never get any fuss about their 30% cut and dominate market position) as much as possible.
These laws will hit every single one of these stores. You've gotta take down the biggest fish first, then the rest will fall.
 

sideshowuniqueuser

macrumors 68030
Mar 20, 2016
2,809
2,816
No it isn't.

If devs choose to leave the Apple App Store to either go it alone or be exclusively in another store we as consumers lose:
  1. The convenience of a one stop shop for app purchases and updates
  2. The security/privacy of Apple's payment system versus others
  3. The very clear privacy declarations that the Apple store requires.
Yawn, yet another who has never heard of macOS.
 
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sideshowuniqueuser

macrumors 68030
Mar 20, 2016
2,809
2,816
Since this isn’t be said, I’ll have to say it. Maybe apple should put Australia in its rear view mirror. Then Australia customers won’t have to worry. Android will fulfill their tech needs needs.
Um, which country do you live in? And are you sure there are no laws being developed that would have you telling Apple to leave your own country in the rear view....?

Anyway, it won't be Android that iOS turns into, it will be macOS. Which it actually already is, merely with a lot of the cool stuff switched off.

BTW, macOS has an Apple App Store too, but it also has sideloading. And no one ever complains about that. No one ever complains about a lack of security, or any of the other stuff you fear. The fear is only your imagination running wild. If you actually used macOS, then you'd understand the absolute joys of not being so locked down, and be one of the ones cheering on these laws, instead of dreading them.
 

icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
2,473
9,066
Why do you think either of these would leave the App store?

Again, that all really depends on the actual value Apple's App store provides to developers and/or end users.

IMHO major apps from household name companies/devs can and probably will pull out of the Apple iOS store because in all honesty they can. Examples: Microsoft Office 365, in a world with alt-stores you know exactly where it will be, microsoft.com. Netflix, same. Amazon, same. Now, as you pointed out the subscriptions for these apps are currently run outside of Apple, I don't like this but there is nothing I can do about it. I would much rather a world where I get everything through Apple and don't need to provide all of my personal and payment information to every single app I use like the PC or MacOS worlds. Do you need to give your CC information to Coca-Cola when you buy a bottle from a supermarket?

Why is it so hard for some to understand how giving a single entity (Apple) my payment info versus countless individual sites and payment processors is a huge consumer advantage?

Other reasons big names will probably leave the Apple app store:
  • No more privacy labels, devs don't want data privacy, they want to harvest all they can and sell it.
  • Exclusivity bonuses.
  • Apple would likely institute a distribution charge for anything downloaded from their store and fair charge or not most big names won't want to pay it and will want the traffic to come from their site and not Apple's. Imagine you are Microsoft, do you want users downloading Office365 from Apple and seeing competitors or do you want them seeing only Microsoft products on the Microsoft site? Seeing competing products is not something any manufacturer/dev wants.
Indie and small devs will likely remain on the Apple app store as it gives them way more eyeballs than they could possibly generate on their own and handles payments, etc. 30% is a no brainer for that kind of exposure and infrastructure.

From a purely retail perspective.... Apple is no different than any other retailer, digital or brick and mortar, if something is purchased from their site they deserve a cut, even if it is just a "player" app like Netflix or Spotify. Unfortunately our world is one where the majority of "apps" are free with IAP. Imagine the loose analogy where you would enter a supermarket, take a gallon of milk off the shelf and go home without paying because you can go to the milk manufacturers web site and purchase and unlock code for the cap, loose analogy but relevant. Right this minute Microsoft is selling a 1 year subscription to 365 on Amazon for $58.99 do you really think that Amazon is not getting a cut of that sale? Amazon does not sell anything for free.

As a consumer I appreciate the following from the Apple store:
  • Single point for app searching - Why do I want to "google" or web search for apps? You only get results that pay to play for their position. That is literally the Google business model for searches. With the Apple store if I search on "word search" I get a single choice that is labeled as an "ad" and then all of the other choices. Admittedly I do not know how Apple chooses to order apps by default this seems a much cleaner way to search than any web search engine as it is specialized for apps.
  • Single point for payment - Again, say you have 100 apps, would you rather give your CC info to only Apple or to 100 different entities that use god knows who as their payment processor? Would it not be prudent to limit your exposure in this day and age?
  • Single point for updates - Right now I see a little red circle with a number in it when an apps have an update and I can do all my updates from one place, super convenient! Why do I want to visit 100 different sites to do updates or do 100 different update actions in my individual apps? Lame experience.
  • Privacy - Apple forces devs to declare what they are collecting, I do not see that service being provided by alt-stores, I see a return to 100 page EULAs with text few can understand as the only way to determine what apps are doing.
As a consumer I dislike the following from the Apple store:
  • Moral gatekeeping - Just stop already, if I want a weed app for my Pax vaporizer I should be able to get one. If I want teh pronz I should be able to get that too. That being said I knew this was the price of admission when I bought into the Apple ecosystem and while it bothers me it was not enough to make me choose another option.
 
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icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
2,473
9,066
Yawn, yet another who has never heard of macOS.

Yawn, yet another member of this community that evidently has nothing to add to the conversation except condescension.

I know of this mystical macOS and am using it this very second. I prefer the way the Apple iOS store works and would prefer if the macOS world worked the same but it doesn't. I knew that when I bought a Mac, doesn't mean I can't think the iOS ecosystem is better.
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,528
14,865
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
I do fully understand what default means. I just don’t understand the use cases outside of the browser and mail sheet within the context of how iOS works.

For example, I use Overcast for podcasts. I have never accidentally opened Apple Podcasts even though it’s the default in some way. Th whole iOS model involves directly sharing objects using the share sheet, so the notion of default doesn’t really come up for me.

Where I do understand default is needed is with Siri. But that easy to fake with shortcuts.

They have functionality within the app, functionality that the default Apple app is missing, functionality that the 3rd party app does better and/or allow interoperability between apps.

Camera and Photos - iMessage and Photos - Safari and whatever default app that is called - in search (Google) and click on a podcast link the default opens - in Maps and click on … - etc…. I would far prefer my app choice and not the Apple defined one.

Here is a Work example for me:
Teams interacts with Outlook (email and calendar) and OneNote. Mail, Calendar, Phone, Messages, and Notes can’t do that.

Here is a Personal example:
Proton Mail and Proton Calendar interact and allow use of full encryption across my devices irrespective of OS. Mail and Calendar can’t do that.

Photos and Flckr ….
 
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