Apple Does Deep Dive Into Security Protections and Risks With Alternative App Marketplaces

[I7guy]

Monopolies or duopolies don’t require legal restrictions or tying.

As @mrochester pointed out, this horizontal integration of the is not apples problem. Apple can’t control what the competition does and the competition should be forced by law to develop their own operating systems. That will out an end to this nonsense in a New York minute.

 

[AppliedMicro]

the competition should be forced by law to develop their own operating systems

Government can’t force companies to develop somehing that isn’t economically viable - unless the government pays them.

Which, again, probably would be decried as an unfair advantage for Apple’s competitors.
But it’s also not very efficient from a macroeconomic perspective.

 

[I7guy]

Government can’t force companies to develop somehing that isn’t economically viable - unless the government pays them.

Which, again, probably would be decried as an unfair advantage for Apple’s competitors.
But it’s also not very efficient from a macroeconomic perspective.

Ah, got it. government can only force companies to give away their proprietary intellectual property, but can’t force groups of companies not to engage in artificial horizontal tying.

 

[v3rlon]

People like me choose Apple for the Walled Garden.

Part of that Walled Garden is that Apps cannot be installed by side loading or other places.
I like that as makes much more difficult to have apps installed in the background.

Apple is the Phone Vendor that allows that so I chose iPhone over the alternatives. I exercised my choice and the same choice that you have.

By providing the facility that can be turned on then you take away my choice of a walled garden. Can you guarantee that the alt app and side load isn't turned on my phone without my knowledge.

At the moment then I have to goto the Apple App Store and choose to install an App and confirm the purchase before will install.

So this is how you are taking away my choice

By not providing on Apple products then I take nothing away from you ability to have a phone that you can do all those things on.

Currently choice is

Apple - Walled Garden, Apps from Apple App Store, payments via Apple, no option to turn them on and lose the Walled Garden.
Android - Open Platform, allows side loading and alternative app stores and alternative payment providers.

We both can choose what we want, I buy an iPhone, you buy your choice of vendors phone that uses Android.

Other than some Apple specific Apps that only run on iOS ie FCP X on iOS which not provided for other mobile apps instead have to use an alternative video editing app. then nothing on Apple iOS that cannot do on Android.

If have your way

Apple - Apps from Multiple App Stores, Multiple Payment Providers can be turned on.
Android - Apps from Multiple App Stores, Multiple Payment Providers

I have NO option for my walled garden.

This is how you take away my choice for a walled garden.

I used to drive an Audi A5 Sportback and now drive an SUV. I now drive my elderly parents around and they struggled with how low the Audi A5 sits to the ground and the side supports of the seats.
The Audi A5 no longer meets my needs so I bought a car that does.

I took my mother with me to all the different car dealerships to see how she was getting in and out of them.
I really wanted the Mazda CX-5 however when going to slide out then moms feet were 4 inches off the floor so completely unsuitable and I didn't buy one.

What you want with the changes to iOS is like me buying the Mazda CX-5 and then complaining my mom cannot get in and out of it properly and so Mazda need to lower the Car Height, instead of buying an SUV that my parents could get in and out of in the first place.

Or the eqiivalent of me keeping the A5 and saying Audi have to raise the height and reduce the side support on the seats so easier to slide in and out of.

Yes I have an alternative to buying a Mazda CX-5 but so do people that want side loading, app stores, payment providers on their mobile device.

I think you misunderstood my post. My way sounds a lot like your way. I am fine with the walled garden on my phone.

I was saying, for the people who complain about the App Store AND the iOS AND the hardware AND the company of Apple itself, why are you here? Just go buy a high end Android phone if you don't like anything Apple does. All your problems are solved.

If you can live anywhere, and you hate the ocean, hurricanes, salt water, humidity, warm weather, and swimsuits, don't move to Miami. If you want mountains, cold weather, four seasons and snow skiing, maybe consider some place in Colorado that actually costs less. Don't ask Miami to ban swimsuits.

 

[v3rlon]

It’s really simple, stick with the provided app store and you’re all set.

Meanwhile, other people get to choose alternate app stores, everybody wins. Your personal preference shouldn’t hinder other people’s freedom to choose.

Also, keep in mind that both apple and the bunch of corporations wanting to set alternate app stores are solely looking for benefits, all that security and privacy arguments on apple camp and freedom of choice on the other camp is just bs.

Not if the App I want moves to Brand X App Store and some other App I want moves to brand Y App Store (which also requires a monthly subscription). Remember when Netflix was one stop shopping for all your streaming, and now you need Hulu, Disney, YouTube, Amazon, AppleTV, and MAX, but it somehow feels like fewer choices for all that?

That is how.

 

[Manzanito]

Not if the App I want moves to Brand X App Store and some other App I want moves to brand Y App Store (which also requires a monthly subscription). Remember when Netflix was one stop shopping for all your streaming, and now you need Hulu, Disney, YouTube, Amazon, AppleTV, and MAX, but it somehow feels like fewer choices for all that?

That is how.

Or apple can start being competitive to entice the best developers to remain in the app store.

I see your point about the plethora of streaming services, but I think competition only can benefit customers.

Let’s reverse the argument. Not so long ago intel had almost no real competition. How did that translate to the quality of the products they were releasing?

 

[v3rlon]

Or apple can start being competitive to entice the best developers to remain in the app store.

I see your point about the plethora of streaming services, but I think competition only can benefit customers.

Let’s reverse the argument. Not so long ago intel had almost no real competition. How did that translate to the quality of the products they were releasing?

Or apple can start being competitive to entice the best developers to remain in the app store.

I see your point about the plethora of streaming services, but I think competition only can benefit customers.

Let’s reverse the argument. Not so long ago intel had almost no real competition. How did that translate to the quality of the products they were releasing?

as someone who is literally sitting in the Fab where the K5, K6, Athlon and early Opteron processors were made, Intel has always had real competition. IBM required it back when the first PCs were made.

Competition usually help the consumer, but not always.
VHS versus Beta, for example offered short term damage for people who bought Beta and long term harm in people who ended up with the inferior VHS product.
It was a similar story with HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray (HD DVD worked better and faster, but lost).
The aforementioned streaming services.

Now if there were 2-3 independent app stores and they were all competing to be the App Store of choice, you might have a point.
But Epic wants the Epic App Store while Adobe wants the Adobe App Store and Google wants the Google App Store. That isn’t competition for the consumer

 

[Mousse]

Not if the App I want moves to Brand X App Store and some other App I want moves to brand Y App Store (which also requires a monthly subscription).

If developers want to move their app away from Apple's AppStore, that tells me that Apple needs to change its policy to entice those developers back. If you claim your store is the best place to shop, but vendors chooses to peddle else where, your shop isn't as great as you think it is.

The App I want trumps any app store loyalty for me. Google only hosts some half-assed firewall apps on the PlayStore. The firewall app I want isn't on the PlayStore because of Google's obnoxious policies. If the App you want moves to an alternate app store, you should blame Apple for their greed and/or obnoxious policies.

 

[v3rlon]

If developers want to move their app away from Apple's AppStore, that tells me that Apple needs to change its policy to entice those developers back. If you claim your store is the best place to shop, but vendors chooses to peddle else where, your shop isn't as great as you think it is.

The App I want trumps any app store loyalty for me. Google only hosts some half-assed firewall apps on the PlayStore. The firewall app I want isn't on the PlayStore because of Google's obnoxious policies. If the App you want moves to an alternate app store, you should blame Apple for their greed and/or obnoxious policies.

That assumes the app you want is made by a company with pure motives, and there is no data to suggest that and a ton to suggest otherwise.

If Epic makes their own App Store (and they kinda have) they do the exact same thing (which they did until it was pointed out in court to them). Or if Spotify works to undercut Apple, which they can do because they pay less to artists (not saying Apple is great, but they pay more than Spotify).

If Ripoff Crypto wants to use an alternative payment method, it probably doesn’t mean that it is better for the consumer.

 

[Mousse]

If Epic makes their own App Store (and they kinda have) they do the exact same thing (which they did until it was pointed out in court to them). Or if Spotify works to undercut Apple, which they can do because they pay less to artists (not saying Apple is great, but they pay more than Spotify).

They don't like Apple's AppStore policies, which is why they want to create their own app store. Let people decide if Fortnite is worth it or not. Personally, I wouldn't bother with installing either Epic nor Spotify app stores. Fortnite isn't the greatest game of all time--not even a top 100 game in my book.😫 Spotify?🙄 The music I listen (classical and opera) too can be found in the bargain bin CDs at most music shops.

If Ripoff Crypto wants to use an alternative payment method, it probably doesn’t mean that it is better for the consumer.

People can choose for themselves. Caveat emptor. A vendor worth his salt, especially one dealing in quality merchandise, prefers dealing with an educated consumer. Those who like to peddle snake oil, prefers the rube.

 

[v3rlon]

They don't like Apple's AppStore policies, which is why they want to create their own app store. Let people decide if Fortnite is worth it or not. Personally, I wouldn't bother with installing either Epic nor Spotify app stores. Fortnite isn't the greatest game of all time--not even a top 100 game in my book.😫 Spotify?🙄 The music I listen (classical and opera) too can be found in the bargain bin CDs at most music shops.

People can choose for themselves. Caveat emptor. A vendor worth his salt, especially one dealing in quality merchandise, prefers dealing with an educated consumer. Those who like to peddle snake oil, prefers the rube.

Epic isn’t just Fortnite, but you are cherry picking highly specific examples in a limited use case to counter a much broader trend.

Epic complained about the Apple App Store while doing the exact same thing in their own store, so they didn’t have the practice. They just wanted some of Apple’s money.
Spotify is the same way.
Wells Fargo had several thousand employees doing shenanigans with customer money and accounts to make their goals. Would you trust them?

If XYZ corp screws me in the Apple Store, I can go to Apple and complain. If it continues, I can buy an Android.

If XYZ corp screws me in the XYZ Store, XYZ will look at XYZ and unsurprisingly find it is not their problem. I can’t go to Android because it is still the XYZ store.

There are flaws in both systems, I admit, but I happen to like the one we have. You are welcome to try the other one. There is a platform that works that way now.

 

[treacher]

And if Apple screws you? Why are they the arbiter of "pure motives"? Are they incapable of corruption?

 

[icanhazmac]

The bigger picture is, that governments don't want two companies to have total control of the mobile app sector.

The bigger picture is, that governments don't want two foreign companies to have control of the mobile app sector.

I fixed that for you. If Apple were an EU company we wouldn't be seeing any of this crap just as we wouldn't have heard anything about your example from India.

 

[Mousse]

Epic isn’t just Fortnite, but you are cherry picking highly specific examples in a limited use case to counter a much broader trend.

Epic complained about the Apple App Store while doing the exact same thing in their own store, so they didn’t have the practice. They just wanted some of Apple’s money.
Spotify is the same way.
Wells Fargo had several thousand employees doing shenanigans with customer money and accounts to make their goals. Would you trust them?

If XYZ corp screws me in the Apple Store, I can go to Apple and complain. If it continues, I can buy an Android.

If XYZ corp screws me in the XYZ Store, XYZ will look at XYZ and unsurprisingly find it is not their problem. I can’t go to Android because it is still the XYZ store.

There are flaws in both systems, I admit, but I happen to like the one we have. You are welcome to try the other one. There is a platform that works that way now.

I use an android phone as my main device. If the PlayStore was the only appstore on Android, it would make no difference to me. Despite the untold number of alternate appstores on the platform, I only use the PlayStore. Other folks install alternate appstore and they haven't had issues. It's their choice. If you don't like the policies of the alternate appstore, don't install it. It ain't rocket surgery.🤨

And I have yet to find an app I wanted on an alternate appstore. The only app I have on my phone that wasn't from the PlayStore is a firewall app because Google--and Apple--are douche for not including a built in firewall on a networked device.😒 I sideloaded AFWall+. I knew the risk and found the reward worth it. If things goes south due to my choice, who do I blame? Me. It's call accountability.

Someone installs an alternate appstore and things screw up. If that appstore won't help, well it was ultimately their choice for installing that appstore. Whether they're 5 or 105, everyone wipes their own ass.

Everyone who thinks major developers will abandon Apple's Appstore because they can build an alternate appstore riddle me this. You know android allows/has alternate appstores. Where is the MicroSoft appstore on android? Or the Adobe appstore? Or Apple appstore? They don't exists. All of them have apps on the PlayStore. I guess Google's policy isn't so ornery that they'd open up their own alt-appstore.🧐

 

[MilaM]

The bigger picture is, that governments don't want two foreign companies to have control of the mobile app sector.

If this explanation is true, which I don't fully agree with, then we should expect many more governments to follow soon. Time will tell.

 

[v3rlon]

And if Apple screws you? Why are they the arbiter of "pure motives"? Are they incapable of corruption?

If Apple does it, I go to Android - just like I said before.

 

[wbeasley]

Legislation and regulation of competition may be slow.
But obviously they couldn’t anticipate how important and big a business the market for mobile apps would become.

Better deals for Spotify and Epic allow for better deals for consumers.
If you’re going they’ll just pocket it their better deals as pure profit, that’s nothing more than your unsubstantiated opinion.

I'd bet "my opinion" they wont lower prices is more likely to be the result than "your opinion" it will result in cheaper options for customers...

Did Spotify reduce prices when they stopped selling subs through the app? nope...

 

[icanhazmac]

Better deals for Spotify and Epic allow for better deals for consumers.

Do you honestly believe that? I don't believe you do, the fact that you said "allow for" is your way out of the statement.

If you’re going they’ll just pocket it their better deals as pure profit, that’s nothing more than your unsubstantiated opinion.

Just as your claim of better deals for consumers is just an opinion. Stores cost money to run. I will side with @wbeasley and bet that when this all settles the prices to consumers will be exactly the same on an Epic, Steam, Meta, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. as they were on the Apple app store. I might even double down and say that the prices will go up to consumers under the guise of inflation.

 

[v3rlon]

There‘s a limited number of competing systems a market will bear. Too much fragmentation isn’t in the interest of consumers nor developers.

But what would that entail? Forcing Apple to make their developer tools put out apps for other systems? Forcing developers to develop the same apps for a new operating system that they’re developing for iOS? Prohibiting sales of third-party applications unless they’re developed for all of the three OS.

It’s a chicken and egg problem:
No consumer will buy a phone or be willing to use its new operating system without a rich ecosystem of third-party apps.
No developer will develop apps for such a new system without an established customer base to make money from.

So competition for operating systems is bad because competition is bad for consumers, but competition for app stores is good because competition is good for consumers? Uhm...

Look, there was a time before iOS. There were smart phone operating systems like the HTC Wizard and Blackberry. Apple made a better product and market share moved.

Samsung, LG, and Sony are not small players. Unix is out there and others, like Google, have modified it to work. Samsung further modified Android for their own ends at times. It CAN be done. It is hard, but not impossible. Microsoft took a stab at it, but the implementation wasn't that great. It was different, and not an obvious clone of iOS/Android, so props for that, but no one really liked it. With Arm Windows and more powerful phones, we may yet see another swing at that.

 

[v3rlon]

I'm fine with Apple hardware and I don't suffer from many bugs.

It's like going into a restaurant and be offered the choice of Coca-Cola or 7up. And that's the only choice of beverages. In all restaurants and supermarket in town - no, nationwide. Although some establishments will offer Starry or Sprite instead of the 7 Up (like, you know, slight variations of Android from different manufacturers.

👉 That's not enough choice. I'd call upon governments to regulate the market for beverages to provide more consumer choice.

Not enough choice (see above)

You still have a choice of different apps - hardly market for any specific type of app is so concentrated like the one for mobile operating systems.

They are - but it's not enough choice - and doesn't allow for enough competition without government intervention.
Not to confuse that with mobile device themselves - there's certainly competition among smartphone makers (as opposed to the duopoly of OS and their App Stores.)

They do - and they've been investigated for antitrust and regulated before.
Then again, I don't Microsoft has never dug its heels in as much as Apple.
They're even cooperating with Linux vendors to enable secure boot for alternative operating systems on PC hardware.

So in your Soda example, you want to REQUIRE them to invent new beverages? That makes no sense. If Coca-Cla and 7-up are the only beverages available anywhere because they are the only ones made, get the one you like (or hate the least). If you absolutely cannot stand the artificial colors in Coke, why would you require 7-Up to allow artificial colors in it when you know full well that the 7-up bottling company will add artificial color to their drink and then charge you extra for it?

If you do not think Microsoft has ever dug their heels in as much as Apple. you must be really young. From the 1990s to about 2005, Microsoft was ruthless.

Google and Meta have both deliberately tried to circumvent Apple privacy. They have SUED for the right to circumvent Apple privacy restrictions. As soon as they can, looks for their apps to show up only on their respective app stores with some terms and conditions that allow them to circumvent those privacy restrictions. They will want to market everything down to the commercial rights to your life story on the off chance it gets interesting. Even if the apps are 'free,' they will be trying to use this as another vector to get the data they have been after all along.

 

[wbeasley]

So in your Soda example, you want to REQUIRE them to invent new beverages? That makes no sense. If Coca-Cla and 7-up are the only beverages available anywhere because they are the only ones made, get the one you like (or hate the least). If you absolutely cannot stand the artificial colors in Coke, why would you require 7-Up to allow artificial colors in it when you know full well that the 7-up bottling company will add artificial color to their drink and then charge you extra for it?

If you do not think Microsoft has ever dug their heels in as much as Apple. you must be really young. From the 1990s to about 2005, Microsoft was ruthless.

Google and Meta have both deliberately tried to circumvent Apple privacy. They have SUED for the right to circumvent Apple privacy restrictions. As soon as they can, looks for their apps to show up only on their respective app stores with some terms and conditions that allow them to circumvent those privacy restrictions. They will want to market everything down to the commercial rights to your life story on the off chance it gets interesting. Even if the apps are 'free,' they will be trying to use this as another vector to get the data they have been after all along.

With Google and Meta you are the product. They acknowledge that.

Apple have always focused on privacy and security. And many like that.

If you dont, then by all means jump to the flashy or trashy new Android device.
Noone is making any of these complainers stay in Apple's walled garden.

It's not "Hotel California" it's "Designed in California" and you can check out any time you like.
Yet for some reason, they never want to leave- perhaps they are all prisoners on their own iDevice...

 

[AppliedMicro]

I'd bet "my opinion" they wont lower prices is more likely to be the result than "your opinion" it will result in cheaper options for customers...

Did Spotify reduce prices when they stopped selling subs through the app? nope...

Why should they have reduced them back then? Haven’t people been pointing out how they’re not even profitable yet?

Did Apple reduce prices when their marginal or average costs for the App Store decreased to a fraction from 2008 through 2019/2020? Why not?

Do you honestly believe that? I don't believe you do, the fact that you said "allow for" is your way out of the statement.

For Epic definitively, yes. If not for Spotify, then others.

So competition for operating systems is bad because competition is bad for consumers, but competition for app stores is good because competition is good for consumers?

Competition for operating systems is good in a certain range. A monopoly isn’t good, neither is too much fraction.

Samsung, LG, and Sony are not small players. Unix is out there and others, like Google, have modified it to work. Samsung further modified Android for their own ends at times. It CAN be done. It is hard, but not impossible. Microsoft took a stab at it, but the implementation wasn't that great. It was different, and not an obvious clone of iOS/Android, so props for that, but no one really liked it

I liked it and it was good. They soured public opinion by foisting the tiled GUI on Windows desktop users.

The isssue was lack of third-party developer support - more than anything else.

With Arm Windows and more powerful phones, we may yet see another swing at that.

No - for lack of developer support. Same reason why Linux hasn’t achieved mainstream popularity on the desktop.

Google and Meta have both deliberately tried to circumvent Apple privacy. They have SUED for the right to circumvent Apple privacy restrictions. As soon as they can, looks for their apps to show up only on their respective app stores with some terms and conditions that allow them to circumvent those privacy restrictions. They will want to market everything down to the commercial rights to your life story on the off chance it gets interesting. Even if the apps are 'free,' they will be trying to use this as another vector to get the data they have been after all along.

They can only circumvent privacy restrictions if the operating system allows for it.
As for data collection Apple doesn’t limit that much even on their App Store - they just have to inform users.

 

[wbeasley]

Why should they have reduced them back then? Haven’t people been pointing out how they’re not even profitable yet?

Did Apple reduce prices when their marginal or average costs for the App Store decreased to a fraction from 2008 through 2019/2020? Why not?

For Epic definitively, yes. If not for Spotify, then others.

Competition for operating systems is good in a certain range. A monopoly isn’t good, neither is too much fraction.

I liked it and it was good. They soured public opinion by foisting the tiled GUI on Windows desktop users.

The isssue was lack of third-party developer support - more than anything else.

No - for lack of developer support. Same reason why Linux hasn’t achieved mainstream popularity on the desktop.

They can only circumvent privacy restrictions if the operating system allows for it.
As for data collection Apple doesn’t limit that much even on their App Store - they just have to inform users.

Wow that’s a lot of fronts to be answering on …

I don’t see why you can’t understand that the EU saying Apple isn’t allowing apps to tell users they can buy things cheaper elsewhere is stupid. Real world shops don’t put up signs like that. If Apple doesn’t let you subscribe from within the app (because the app dev doesn’t want to pay Apple) why do they even need to tell you where you can subscribe? Just Google the usually obviously named website for how to. It’s 2024. Surely we collectively know how to do basic things by now?

 

[AppliedMicro]

Real world shops don’t put up signs like that.

Real world shops aren’t monopolies for their users and suppliers.

If Apple doesn’t let you subscribe from within the app (because the app dev doesn’t want to pay Apple) why do they even need to tell you where you can subscribe? Just Google the usually obviously named website for how to. It’s 2024. Surely we collectively know how to do basic things by now?

If it’s so simple and convenient, i.e. so little difference, why does Apple prohibit it? Why do they care in the first place?

 

[Nicole1980]

Good luck with that. I hope all your dreams of a Government-dictated OS come true for you.

Call it 'government dictated freedom'. You act is if the government requiring openness and freedom is somehow 'oppressive'. I just don't get you folks.