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well, if you read the rest of my comment, taking that sentence out is a bit disingenuous. i didn't really imply what you're speaking to, at least not to the effect you've taken it.

In the end, it all comes down to the fact that a lot of us both misunderstand, all worry far too much over the effects of affirmative action.

You could force hire every single Hispanic and black person in the country to tech positions, and you'd still only prevent a quarter of the white population from gaining a job in the field. And that quarter probably doesn't want a job there anyway. The numbers are practically incapable of producing a worst case scenario where white people become a disadvantaged minority due to racial bias. The simple fact is there are more of us than them, so we'll always have a slight ingrained advantage due to that.
 
Listen, any time you add artificial advantage to a group, which this does, it's wrong. I don't care about their "disadvantage", if they want to get past it they can. They just need to work for it.

Whether it is a scholarship helping certain minorities special access to school or hiring based on minority is the same bloody thing. You are still giving undeserved privilege to a group based on perceived disadvantage.

How is correcting a wrong a wrong?

How are scholarships to underrepresented groups the same as affirmative action hiring practices?

I suggest you read more. It's not about minorities. It's about underrepresented groups. In the tech industry. It's about balancing the playing field. If you were born in a undernourished household where no one cared if you went to school or what grades you got, or were born of a sex where everyone around you told you that you weren't supposed to be good at math or like computers then you would likely pursue something else. These are real disadvantages. Have a drink and think about it.
 
Whether it is a scholarship helping certain minorities special access to school or hiring based on minority is the same bloody thing. You are still giving undeserved privilege to a group based on perceived disadvantage.

well, it's not entirely the same thing at all. the hiring scenario shouldn't happen at all. the other should be awarded based on merit within a demographic that has been proven to be at a real disadvantage. generally this is done through well, historical analysis and statistics. then via interviews and examination of one's financial assets and need, like most scholarships.

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In the end, it all comes down to the fact that a lot of us both misunderstand, all worry far too much over the effects of affirmative action.

You could force hire every single Hispanic and black person in the country to tech positions, and you'd still only prevent a quarter of the white population from gaining a job in the field. And that quarter probably doesn't want a job there anyway. The numbers are practically incapable of producing a worst case scenario where white people become a disadvantaged minority due to racial bias. The simple fact is there are more of us than them, so we'll always have a slight ingrained advantage due to that.

well, hispanics wasn't a great minority to pick, as they're positioned to overtake the white population very soon, i believe. and there are predictions for white being the minority here in 20-25 years ;)
 
Forcing companies to hire equal numbers of men and women isn't what is suggested here. The suggestion is to change a societal mindset that would result, in the long term, equal number of men and women applicants.

Why?

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How is correcting a wrong a wrong?

How are scholarships to underrepresented groups the same as affirmative action hiring practices?

I suggest you read more. It's not about minorities. It's about underrepresented groups. In the tech industry. It's about balancing the playing field. If you were born in a undernourished household where no one cared if you went to school or what grades you got, or were born of a sex where everyone around you told you that you weren't supposed to be good at math or like computers then you would likely pursue something else. These are real disadvantages. Have a drink and think about it.

I think you need to put down your drink.
 
But forcing the diversity or only hiring people of these other groups is just wrong. How is it right to turn down an applicant just because he's a white male?

You have a warped sense of what diversity is. Diversity is about opening a larger pool of candidates to an opportunity that has been traditionally only available to white males. White males are in that candidate pool along with all others. Diversity is simply saying don't discount the rest of the pool because the white male is there. Choose the candidate based on his/her merit. If he's white, so be it. If she is hispanic, the same applies.

No, but hiring one person "because he's black" is saying you wouldn't have hired a white person or an Indian person for the position because you wanted a black person in the position, so yes, you potentially took a position from a white person.

You're assuming the person was hired because of race, not that he happens to be black. That introduces facts not in evidence. All things could have been equal in every other category and an employer simply chose who they wanted.

The way you write what you write. Seems you think this is about black and white. It's not. It's about making opportunity available for all, not just a select few. Companies who are working to increase their diversity want to have as large a pool of qualified candidates as possible. It's in their best interest to do so. Making your company or industry attractive to minorities, women, and veterans only increases your standing in the whole community.
 
well, hispanics wasn't a great minority to pick, as they're positioned to overtake the white population very soon, i believe. and there are predictions for white being the minority here in 20-25 years ;)

Hispanics are the largest of the minorities, making up roughly 16% of the population. Small compared to the 66% of the population that's white.

Unless every single man, woman, and child currently residing in Mexico decides to run the border in the next 25 years, we don't have anything to worry about.
 
This is another assumption that has little basis in reality. Like companies are handing out positions to people off the street just because they're a certain color, rather than them being qualified, which is, of course, still the primary requisite that exists beyond race, color, and creed.

"Well hello there, my dusky colored friend! Would you like to be the CEO of Apple Inc."

"WHY SURE! I love fruits and vegetables! Ran a stand back in '87! Like to think I'm a bonafied entrepreneur, I do, I do!"

"You got it! AFFIRMATIVE ACTION FTW!"

...this doesn't happen.
yeah there has to be a reason to hire a person that relates to the job besides just checking off so e boxes on a diversity form.
 

Because there is no physical, psychological, evolutionary, or natural reason why that isn't already the case. Thus, it must be some societal forces at work. The question should be reversed. Why not? Why wouldn't you want the number of applicants / graduates in every field to be proportional to the gender distribution in society as a whole?

As an aside, we are missing out on some great opportunities with things being unequal as they are. What are the chances that the most brilliant minds will be in half the population? Why wouldn't you want to look at the entire population for the next genius who will further humanity? Proverbially, we are making it harder for ourselves to hit the dart board by deliberately cutting the dart board in half.
 
Because there is no physical, psychological, evolutionary, or natural reason why that isn't already the case. Thus, it must be some societal forces at work. The question should be reversed. Why not? Why wouldn't you want the number of applicants / graduates in every field to be proportional to the gender distribution in society as a whole? .

Captious argument.
1) you imply that society is something forced on everything and everyone. Society evolved from human's natural state. It's not that one day a person woke up and created society
2) you imply that personal choice/taste is not a factor. It is, a and big part of it. I can assure you that more men are interested in football than women, therefore more men will apply for football-related jobs. Is it discrimination? No, it's taste. More women are interested in clothing and fashion, therefore more women will apply for jobs in fashion.

Discrimination does not occur when a 50/50 ratio is NOT reflected in the job market, it occurs when with similar resumes a person is chosen because he/she is a female/man/straight/gay/religious/atheist/etc. over someone who's not. You can't put a number on discrimination, otherwise we could say that the NBA is racist.
 
Captious argument.
1) you imply that society is something forced on everything and everyone. Society evolved from human's natural state. It's not that one day a person woke up and created society
2) you imply that personal choice/taste is not a factor. It is, a and big part of it. I can assure you that more men are interested in football than women, therefore more men will apply for football-related jobs. Is it discrimination? No, it's taste. More women are interested in clothing and fashion, therefore more women will apply for jobs in fashion.

Discrimination does not occur when a 50/50 ratio is NOT reflected in the job market, it occurs when with similar resumes a person is chosen because he/she is a female/man/straight/gay/religious/atheist/etc. over someone who's not. You can't put a number on discrimination, otherwise we could say that the NBA is racist.

It is quite lopsided though in the tech industry. And 50/50 isn't what we'd expect but you'd expect it to be closer than what it is now. Also, I wouldn't say that men are more interested in football, some of the most hardcore football fans I know are women and also many of the top fashion designers are men. There is also no reason that women wouldn't be interested in the tech industry other than the fact that there is a lot of sexism that exists. That is the reason most women I know have left the field.
 
yeah there has to be a reason to hire a person that relates to the job besides just checking off so e boxes on a diversity form.

Qualification is the major point here. In much the same way that some white people are suspicious that someone might've been hired due to the color of their skin, black and Hispanic people are likely pretty loathe to think that the only reason they have their job is for that exact same reason. Skill, moreso than anything else, is what's most important.

My major point is that a company aiming for diversity isn't a bad thing, because, for one, it's a nice thing to aim for. For two, the people being hired represent a minority of the population, which means that automatically you're not going to have as many of them gunning for a position as the majority of the population. Once everything is tallied together, putting a focus on hiring minorities won't take away jobs from anyone else. It's much ado over nothing.
 
It is quite lopsided though in the tech industry. And 50/50 isn't what we'd expect but you'd expect it to be closer than what it is now.

Why? Just because the population is composed by X males, Y females (or whatever you want X,Y,Z to be) doesn't mean that each and every job should have a similar composition of X and Y. Some job is going to have more X, some is going to have more Y.
Most K-12 teachers are females. Is there discrimination? I don't think so.

Also, I wouldn't say that men are more interested in football, some of the most hardcore football fans I know are women and also many of the top fashion designers are men.

You prove my point. Nothing stops a woman to do what she wants (including fighting in UFC), nothing stops a man to do what he wants, in general terms. I agree that there is a case-by-case scenario, but you can't use numbers to prove the point that a scenario is discriminatory or not.

What we should strive for is NOT equal distribution; we should strive for 100% employement, all with good wages, and an always improving education system for kids and adults alike.
 
I guess it depends on perspective, but I disagree about equality being achieved decades ago. The laws have been in place for decades, but acceptance of those laws is still far from universal. I've heard people say, in this forum as well, hires should be based on merit only. I agree with that 100%. The problem is, for multiple generations those hires weren't based on merit only. They were based on the merit of the best white male candidate. There is a difference. What you have now, by and large, are those same white male candidates making the hiring decisions. With absence of malice, people like people, like them. Companies should be able to hire whomever they want, but if all those hires are "like me" hires then everything remains the same.
So you're basically saying that some immeasurable and abstract bias in one direction should be countered by deliberate bias in the other direction? When those people hired thanks to this bias move forwards in their career, won't they then begin to favor people representing their ethnicity when they start to hire people?

I'm not denying your assertion that managers are subconsciously more likely to hire people who are closer to being like them. They've done psychological research on this and concluded that people are in general more likely to trust people who look like them. It's not even just white people, it's all races and most probably goes back to our tribal stage of societal development. However what I am saying this is so abstract and hard to put into numbers it's not strong enough to put into a justification for deliberate favoritism based on gender or race.

In essence you're basically arguing for trying to fight fire with fire, which in my opinion is just a bad idea all around. There aren't any simple solutions to a problem as abstract and difficult to measure as people hiring people like them. One way would be to have human resources departments screen and interview people and let managers make hiring decisions based on resumes and assessments with data relating to gender and ethnicity stripped out. Another one would be to have a diverse human resources department and let the biases cancel each other out.

A fairly serious flaw in your argument I'm going to have to point out that these days in big companies hiring decisions are not done by managers, but by human resources departments and those generally have a female majority. Thus your assessment that hiring in the tech sector is biased in favor of men because of people being biased towards people who look more like them is something of an oxymoron. Hiring should actually be biased in favor of women, not men, because hiring decisions are mostly done by other women.

Systemic and institutionalized discrimination is alive and well in this country. Obviously you've never been subjected to it, therefore you proudly proclaim it doesn't exist. I'm surprised that you didn't end your post with some of my best friends are Black.
Well that's a really mature response... Talk down to and just insult your opponent.

Seriously thou, I haven't really encountered any solid proof of discrimination in general, just anecdotal evidence with little in terms of proof and studies with serious flaws in their methods. The usual "send the same applications except with the applicant being of a different gender or race" studies never send the same applications to the same people, they send the same applications to different people in which case it just becomes completely invalid as different employers will have different skills differently. The end result of something like this is just going to be random and you can repeat it until you get the result you want.

So it is interesting when Apple donates money for scholarships for students, that it devolves into "this is racist because hiring due to race is racist". This is scholarships... for students.
People wouldn't have an issue if Apple was donating money for scholarships intended to help disadvantaged people in general, but this is Apple handing out money for scholarships awarded based on racial background.
 
Why? Just because the population is composed by X males, Y females (or whatever you want X,Y,Z to be) doesn't mean that each and every job should have a similar composition of X and Y. Some job is going to have more X, some is going to have more Y.
Most K-12 teachers are females. Is there discrimination? I don't think so.

We often forget that traditionalism still sticks with us. Up until... 50? years ago, many jobs just weren't open to women. Teachers are one that women have traditionally taken up and it is a societal norm that stops from there being more male teachers.

Why wouldn't there be close to 50/50 in the tech industry? or 60/40? or even god forbid 70/30? Unless you are going to say that computers are inherently male, which they aren't. Also, someone being a fan of football is different than someone going to school, getting a job and succeeding in the technical industry. I did it but I can tell you there were many times I thought of getting out, and it wasn't due to lack of interest.

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People wouldn't have an issue if Apple was donating money for scholarships intended to help disadvantaged people in general, but this is Apple handing out money for scholarships handed out based on racial background.

I somehow doubt that. But I will say, what if its a start? What if they donate to other organizations in the near future, then this one wouldn't be an issue?
 
The best way Apple can increase diversity is to fund education. I'm sure when people get their jobs, they want to know they were hired because of their merits rather than a quota.

This money is for education.
 
Captious argument.
1) you imply that society is something forced on everything and everyone. Society evolved from human's natural state. It's not that one day a person woke up and created society
2) you imply that personal choice/taste is not a factor. It is, a and big part of it. I can assure you that more men are interested in football than women, therefore more men will apply for football-related jobs. Is it discrimination? No, it's taste. More women are interested in clothing and fashion, therefore more women will apply for jobs in fashion.

Discrimination does not occur when a 50/50 ratio is NOT reflected in the job market, it occurs when with similar resumes a person is chosen because he/she is a female/man/straight/gay/religious/atheist/etc. over someone who's not. You can't put a number on discrimination, otherwise we could say that the NBA is racist.

1) Just because it came from a natural state does not make the final product natural. In half-jest, Sucralose is came from things of this earth. Does not mean that Sucralose is the same as natural sugar. Through intelligent intervention, societies did some terrible things. This discussion's topic isn't necessary as evil, but it's still quite detrimental.

2) Your football example is absolutely perfect. Who says more men would be interested in football if all influences were equal? People tend to be interested in the sports they played as kids. Girls aren't even offered the opportunity to play football - not even getting into the pressures many parents put on boys to play football that don't want to. The fact that women don't watch as much professional football is a perfect reflection of peoples upbringing - it is not a natural taste. Further, for those paying attention, women NFL fans are one of the largest growing demographics for the sport and will soon become as profitable to the sport as men. The NFL has noticed, but hasn't done much about it other than sell pink jerseys. The recent wife-beatings by the players isn't helping, but that's another issue. Either way, the football example is a great illustration of my point. If parents pushed girls into football at the same rate they pushed boys into football, then 20 years from now there would be an equal number men and women NFL fans (and women would probably be allowed to play in the NFL).

Again, it's not about hiring one person over another. Of course the job should go to candidate that is the best fit judged by a variety of reasons. It's about equal opportunity; put another way, it's about equal numbers showing up. When I was in engineering school, pretty recently, we had about 90% men. I can tell you from personal experience, it's not because men are better than women at math or problem solving - it's not because of taste.
 
White people are currently enjoying the remnant benefits of actual SLAVE labor that built the US economy. People complain about China's "slave" labor, but black people in America were actual SLAVES.

Black people were systematically oppressed and now they're at an economic disadvantage.

It is time to forcibly fix that imbalance.

The correct action would be to pay reparation to families of slaves. That means the 20 acres and a mule that were promised to slaves after the emancipation, but were taken away, should be paid with interest.

That'll do a lot to repair their economic disparity.

That is the biggest pile of crap I have read all day. Africans whose grandparents were never slaves are still whining about slavery. And somehow they expect white people whose grandparents were never slave owners to pay up.

My advice; learn to speak decent English, study in and out of school and wear clothes that make employers (black or white) want to hire you.

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Undeserved privilege is given to whites and specifically white males all the time. It isn't special access to school, it is funding for those that are interested in the tech industry. They still have to get into school and pass their classes. If you don't think black people in the US are disadvantaged, you have your eyes closed.

If you think you can divide Americans into distinct groups, "black" and "white" your mind is closed.
 
White Republican here. I think it's great that Apple is voluntarily giving to education funds. The Black experiences in this county has been very different compared to the white experience. There is higher crime and poverty rates in the Black community. Social programs do little to fix this. Education, however, can help empower people to lift themselves out of bad situations and break the cycle of poverty. Good for Apple for doing good things with their wealth.
 
Apple gave money for the Historically Black Colleges and Woman groups but the third group was never mentioned, Veterans. Only 1% of the nation serve in the Armed Forces today, making Veterans a minority in Apples eyes. Yet, there are vets that are white, Asian, and Hispanic males. Do they not count?
 
Achieve based on your merit. Not your sex, color, age, race, gender affiliation etc.

Every program that singles out people like this excludes others and points out how someone is different and deserves special treatment or consideration because they are different. No different than racism or gender exclusion.
 
Apple gave money for the Historically Black Colleges and Woman groups but the third group was never mentioned, Veterans. Only 1% of the nation serve in the Armed Forces today, making Veterans a minority in Apples eyes. Yet, there are vets that are white, Asian, and Hispanic males. Do they not count?

Being a vet isn't a state of being, like being black, white, Hispanic, etc. It's more an honorific.

On top of that, being in the military, especially in times of peace, serves as a sort of school itself. A goodly number of Navy and Air Force vets usually gravitate towards tech fields mainly due to what they learned while in the service.
 
White people are currently enjoying the remnant benefits of actual SLAVE labor that built the US economy. People complain about China's "slave" labor, but black people in America were actual SLAVES.

Black people were systematically oppressed and now they're at an economic disadvantage.

It is time to forcibly fix that imbalance.

The correct action would be to pay reparation to families of slaves. That means the 20 acres and a mule that were promised to slaves after the emancipation, but were taken away, should be paid with interest.

That'll do a lot to repair their economic disparity.

Reparations. . .sure. I'm white, I have two great, great etc. uncles that grabbed their rifles and headed south. They defeated the southern armies that were maintaining that slavery should be allowed. Slavery ended. Those two uncles didn't make it back up north, where there wasn't an issue with slavery. So as far as I see it, I am owed what was taken from me. Let me know when these reparations are handed out because I need to collect for what was taken from my family.

I see other posts lumping all whites into the same category and saying they owe reparations. Are all whites the same? Looks like my family blood line helped end this crap so I am curious as to what anyone thinks I owe to anybody?
 
So it is interesting when Apple donates money for scholarships for students, that it devolves into "this is racist because hiring due to race is racist". This is scholarships... for students.

Having said that, there have been many studies done on race/sex and hiring practices. One of the most famous one involved sending out resumes with 'white sounding' names and others with 'ethnic' sounding names. The white sounding names had overwhelming responses with the same resumes. There have also been studies to show that white males are more likely to hire white males. And recently I read an extensive study that showed diverse technical teams perform better.

Also, as a women, I see sexism all the time in the tech industry. Many men can deny it exists if they want but that doesn't make it go away. I was at a tech conference last year where the announcer was introducing a presenter and then made a comment about her boobs, that isn't the kind of things you want to hear from your peers in a professional setting. But that type of thing happens. And yes there is some inherent racism that goes on as well as sexism.

Anyway, I'm glad that Apple is giving back and providing scholarships to those that desire to enter into the tech field. We definitely need more diversity.

Man, you should hear the ladies when "cute guy whoever" gets hired. It's like they are buying a side of beef or something. Disgusting how sexist the work place can be sometimes and no one ever seems to do anything about it. It's like women have a license to be that way and it's looked at as harmless.
 
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