Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
To me, it seems like Amazon is going to be given what is effectively free advertising for their products on Apple's platform.

No different than how it was before Apple changed their practice of not allowing 3rd parties to sell via their apps without going through the app store.

Further - they aren't given any more free advertising then when a user uses safari. Easier maybe - but not any more/less...
 
To me, it seems like Amazon is going to be given what is effectively free advertising for their products on Apple's platform.
How so?
Apple isn't being forced to promote anything.
They "may" be required to allow stores to put their links back into their apps.
That is not "free advertising" by any stretch.
 
And this will open up to getting virus and other stuff because they will be forced to open in app links to all.
Government go away
 
How so?
Apple isn't being forced to promote anything.
They "may" be required to allow stores to put their links back into their apps.
That is not "free advertising" by any stretch.

I feel some people (not saying this poster) just need to cling to something to show how wrong this is - how Apple will be hurt by this, etc...
 
Who's to stop Apple from selling their eBooks at a loss too? It's called a free market. Apple could just as easily sell their eBooks at a loss thinking more people would then buy more ipads and iphones, which have a much healthier profit margin. But, Apple is making the conscious decision to see their eBooks at a higher price, which is fine, just don't go around "oh, poor Apple".

I'm not saying poor Apple. What they did was illegal and they deserve to be punished. I'm not sure that this punishment is the right one, but I agree that Apple was wrong.

What stops Apple from selling books at a loss is common business sense. Apple doesn't sell things that don't make money. Amazon lost $7m last quarter.

No, Amazon sells SOME books under wholesale. This is a perfectly legitimate business practice done in just about every business out there. Where do you think all the 'sales' come from. Businesses put some things on sale in order to get you in the door. These are typically under their cost. The business is willing to do this because they know that the vast majority of people will buy more than just the 'loss-leaders'.

But you're right, Amazon was not the victim initially. The consumer was. And it's the government's job to protect the consumer from price fixing. And frankly Apple is probably doing just fine with their eBook market. But they wanted more money and to put Amazon out of business because Jpbs himself stated that the publishers would withhold their books from Amazon.

In case you don't remember read this:
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/05...ly-going-to-withhold-their-books-from-amazon/

Thank you for that information about some books being sold at a profit. I made an incorrect assumption and I'm sorry for that.

Overall, though, I still believe that Amazon is behaving anti-competitively with their eBook pricing, driving smaller competitors out of business. When looking at predatory pricing, selling something cheaper than your competition is just business. Selling something (consistently) below cost is anti-competitive.

...I don't fault Apple for their model and desire to shake things up. I fault Apple for doing it (seemingly) in an illegal fashion.

As a CONSUMER - I'm glad things are back to the way they are because as a CONSUMER I prefer being able to shop around for the best price.

What Apple did is definitely illegal under the Sherman Antitrust Act.

As a consumer, I'm sad because Amazon wiped out a lot of the competition for books. Borders is gone, B&N is almost gone, and countless local book stores have closed as well. Amazon has had the best price for a long time, even with the whole iBooks thing.
 
And this will open up to getting virus and other stuff because they will be forced to open in app links to all.
Government go away

What?

Are you new to iOS? IAPs from 3rd parties were the norm until Apple changed their policy so they could assure a 30% take. It wasn't even that long ago

And the process has nothing to do with getting a virus or the potential.
 
Yeah, Amazon makes amazing profits. Is it 9 million dollars per year? And they only make any profit because the workers in their warehouses are working under conditions that would make Foxconn ashamed.

That would have to have been a "good" prior year. They operated at a loss in 2012 and are on track for a loss in 2013. The greater the loss and the worse the guidance, the higher the stock price, especially when it comes as a surprise.
 
Well, no. They are preparing for a retrial, and quite rightly so, because that judgement is just total rubbish.

And they will lose.

Note to Apple (and anyone else planning on price fixing). Don't send out emails with bullet points of exactly how you plan to go about it. It literally gives the DoJ the proverbial 'smoking gun'.

"In a note to a publishing executive nervous about sticking it to Amazon (AMZN), Jobs wrote:

As I see it, [Conspiring Publisher] has the following choices:

1. Throw in with Apple and see if we can all make a go of this to create a real mainstream ebooks market at $12.99 and $14.99.

2. Keep going with Amazon at $9.99. You will make a bit more money in the short term, but in the medium term Amazon will tell you they will be paying you 70% of $9.99. They have shareholders too.

3. Hold back your books from Amazon. Without a way for customers to buy your ebooks, they will steal them. This will be the start of piracy and once started, there will be no stopping it. Trust me, I've seen this happen with my own eyes.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any other alternatives. Do you?"
 
...and they only make any profit because the workers in their warehouses are working under conditions that would make Foxconn ashamed.

Seriously? I have four friends who work at Amazon. I've even been to the warehouse Obama visited a couple days back and seen the hundreds of people there in the midst of doing their job.

About the only complaint anyone has ever made about working there is "well...you have to walk around a bunch". They pay decently, have great benefits, offer nice hours, pay overtime. Everyone there loves it.

Hardly what I'd call an exploitative sweat shop.
 
Last edited:
What Apple did is definitely illegal under the Sherman Antitrust Act.

As a consumer, I'm sad because Amazon wiped out a lot of the competition for books. Borders is gone, B&N is almost gone, and countless local book stores have closed as well. Amazon has had the best price for a long time, even with the whole iBooks thing.

Maybe you were addressing my "seemingly." I used that because that is how it appears to me - and right now - it's the verdict. And I agree with the verdict. But if overturned (I don't think it will be and the dam has already been broken) - then legally - Apple didn't commit a crime.

----------

Seriously? I have four friends who work at Amazon. I've even been to the warehouse Obama visited a couple days back and seen the hundreds of people there in the midst of doing their job.

About the only complaint anyone has ever made about working there is "well...you have to walk around a bunch". They pay decently, have great benefits, offer hours, pay overtime. Everyone there loves it.

Hardly what I'd call an exploitative sweat shot.

Well damn them for creating jobs here in the USA!!!
 
And if the Kindle link is clicked, have iOS give this warning message:
WARNING: Books purchased through this method will not be stored in the Apple Cloud, thus could be lost. Apple cannot guarantee that your credit card information will not be stolen using a 3rd party link. Use at your own risk.

A simple WARNING message is not beyond what the Judge said, and will deter a lot of people from using the Kindle link.

Can be treated as libellous.

Have to be careful with the wording.
 
Maybe you were addressing my "seemingly." I used that because that is how it appears to me - and right now - it's the verdict. And I agree with the verdict. But if overturned (I don't think it will be and the dam has already been broken) - then legally - Apple didn't commit a crime.

I was. And I agree that it shouldn't be overturned.
 
What part of "she reviewed the evidence" don't you understand?

Really, do you know how the legal system of your country works? It is a bench trial, the judge reviews the evidence and in a hearing she commented about the evidence she already saw.

Apple lawyers were not surprised when she did those comments, they only disagreed with them.

She stated her opinion favoring the government and began writing her ruling before the trial began. Res ipsa loquitur.
 
Thank you for that information about some books being sold at a profit. I made an incorrect assumption and I'm sorry for that.

Overall, though, I still believe that Amazon is behaving anti-competitively with their eBook pricing, driving smaller competitors out of business. When looking at predatory pricing, selling something cheaper than your competition is just business. Selling something (consistently) below cost is anti-competitive.



What Apple did is definitely illegal under the Sherman Antitrust Act.

As a consumer, I'm sad because Amazon wiped out a lot of the competition for books. Borders is gone, B&N is almost gone, and countless local book stores have closed as well. Amazon has had the best price for a long time, even with the whole iBooks thing.

I don't really disagree with you about it being anti-competitive. But that's the world we live in and the laws we fuction under. However, if Amazon were to ever get to the place where they actually control the e-books market then other laws can be applied to them. I don't see that happening though, Apple still has their book store, free books are available just about everywhere these days, etc.

What it will do (and probably is already doing) is changing the publishing business and that's what is scaring the publishers. Rather the same as Apple did to the music business. The publishers and sellers will have to adapt. The businesses I worry about are the mom and pop book stores (love them). But then even with the agency model they were going to be hurt. E-books are the wave of the future.

While I love to buy books and hold them while I read I now only buy those books in hard copy that I know I will want to keep forever. It's just too efficient to go on vacation and carry my library with me on my iPad or phone or my Kindle. I really got tired of lugging 3-4 books with me for a week away from home and I highly doubt I'm alone in that perspective. Plus my husband got REALLY tired of hundreds and hundreds of books on the book shelves, in boxes and stacked in the closet. So now we're both happy. I still have lots of books and we have a LOT more space :)
 
I agree with your point. Clearly people have the Kindle app because they read books from Amazon's platform. Consumers aren't going to say "Well shucks, there is no link, I guess I'll buy an iBook." Apple's 30% demand is misguided. If they really want money from Amazon, then why not just charge some monthly hosting fee based on downloads?

This is just about what I think they should do. If Apple is dead set on getting money from Kindle, Netflix, MS, and the rest, why not set it so any paid service that uses in app purchases to servers outside of Apple's control has to sell their app for 99 cents? Apple gets their 30% cut of each sale from the App Store, which would more than cover the cost of bandwidth used to host the file, and the services don't have to worry about losing a goodly chunk of their profits ad infinium simply because someone subscribed to their service on an Apple platform.

As is, no one is benefiting from this setup except for Apple. Apple doesn't have to sacrifice 30% of their sales through iBooks. Amazon does. Amazon had to nix IAP completely and rely on sales from their website, plus lead people through a somewhat convoluted cloud based process to get books into their iPad app. This isn't fair to their customers, who have gotten it into their head that everything could and should be done from inside the app. But...well...they can't. Apple wants their cut from all purchases made on an iPad.

In fact, do you know I tend to use iBooks more than Kindle because I can buy books directly from the app? I'm sure I'm not the only one. It makes me think Apple realized exactly what they were doing when they set up their payment scheme. They knew none of the larger companies would opt for the 30% cut. They've stacked the odds very much in their favor, and have weaponized their platform against their competitors. Either they pay Apple a very large amount of cash for a contrived convenience, or risk losing iPad business by forcing their customers to jump through hoops to make purchases.

I imagine if Microsoft did this, people would be screaming bloody murder around here.
 
Why should Apple be forced to do anything with their platform? If they really wanted to, they could just ban the kindle app completely because they already have an app with the same type of functionality (iBooks).

You won't see Barnes and noble forced to sell amazon books.
 
Why should Apple be forced to do anything with their platform? If they really wanted to, they could just ban the kindle app completely because they already have an app with the same type of functionality (iBooks).

You won't see Barnes and noble forced to sell amazon books.

B&N nooks have the Play Store where there is the Amazon Kindle app

Ah, and a company can do what they want if they don't break the law
 
I don't really disagree with you about it being anti-competitive. But that's the world we live in and the laws we fuction under. However, if Amazon were to ever get to the place where they actually control the e-books market then other laws can be applied to them. I don't see that happening though, Apple still has their book store, free books are available just about everywhere these days, etc.

Apple still has the iBookstore for now. It sounds like if this judgement is passed, Apple will have to close it down. (Terminate existing agreements & can't enter into new agreements for 5 years...)

Regarding "the laws we function under":

The specific law being applied in this case is the Sherman Antitrust Act

A Section 1 violation has three elements:[16]

1. An agreement
2. which unreasonably restrains competition
3. and which affects interstate commerce.

A Section 2 violation has two elements:[17]

(1) the possession of monopoly power in the relevant market and
(2) the willful acquisition or maintenance of that power as distinguished from growth or development as a consequence of a superior product, business acumen, or historic accident.

This case is about Section 1, which I feel Apple is guilty of. I'm also saying that Amazon may be guilty of Section 2 (Abuse of monopoly power, specifically predatory pricing). Section 2 also applies to the Microsoft Trial (and the Clayton Antitrust Act, possibly)
 
This is just about what I think they should do. If Apple is dead set on getting money from Kindle, Netflix, MS, and the rest, why not set it so any paid service that uses in app purchases to servers outside of Apple's control has to sell their app for 99 cents? Apple gets their 30% cut of each sale from the App Store, which would more than cover the cost of bandwidth used to host the file, and the services don't have to worry about losing a goodly chunk of their profits ad infinium simply because someone subscribed to their service on an Apple platform.

As is, no one is benefiting from this setup except for Apple. Apple doesn't have to sacrifice 30% of their sales through iBooks. Amazon does. Amazon had to nix IAP completely and rely on sales from their website, plus lead people through a somewhat convoluted cloud based process to get books into their iPad app. This isn't fair to their customers, who have gotten it into their head that everything could and should be done from inside the app. But...well...they can't. Apple wants their cut from all purchases made on an iPad.

In fact, do you know I tend to use iBooks more than Kindle because I can buy books directly from the app? I'm sure I'm not the only one. It makes me think Apple realized exactly what they were doing when they set up their payment scheme. They knew none of the larger companies would opt for the 30% cut. They've stacked the odds very much in their favor, and have weaponized their platform against their competitors. Either they pay Apple a very large amount of cash for a contrived convenience, or risk losing iPad business by forcing their customers to jump through hoops to make purchases.

I imagine if Microsoft did this, people would be screaming bloody murder around here.

Your idea about paying for the app might work but I suspect that horse has already left the barn.

I hardly ever buy my books from Apple because I don't live exclusively in the Apple ecosystem. I use a Win8 phone and like my books on it too so I don't have to cart my iPad everywhere (like waiting for a Dr appt). And Amazon has an app on every platform. What Apple should do is come out with an iBook app for all the other platforms like Amazon. As of now, they are missing out on a large population of the eBook buying public. But I doubt they will do that.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.