Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Jasus ye love yer jargon dont you. All things being equal obviously?

Actually I dislike jargon because it often gets in the way of communicating an idea, but sometimes an idea gets to be too complicated to simply explain every definition of every other word being used.

You really would like Ken Pohlmann's "Principles of Digital Audio"... he begins with the very basic, breaks it down easily, and then starts building up your knowledge of digital systems from there. Of course it takes him an entire book to get you familiar with the concepts and I don't want to write out chapters of info here detailing what a quantization interval is, or what 1/f noise is... It should be the goal of anyone trying to understand digital audio that they understand what these are and why they're relevant.

Most of what I've argued comes from Pohlmann (and others) whose book is still, 20 years after its first publication, regarded as the Bible of digital audio fundamentals, encoding/decoding, system design, etc. (updates in subsequent additions have addressed emerging formats like MP3, MPEG-4, etc.)
 
Is the DRM on videos what prevents us from importing them into iMovie, iDVD, FCP and DVD Studio Pro and editing/burning them to a DVD? And can one assume that will all be possible in May?
 
Is the DRM on videos what prevents us from importing them into iMovie, iDVD, FCP and DVD Studio Pro and editing/burning them to a DVD? And can one assume that will all be possible in May?

Steve said that he doesn't consider iTunes' videos to fit in the same category as music because there's no precedent for digitally-encoded video being distributed without DRM, whereas digital distribution of music without DRM is already possible via CDs. He expects industry movement on videos to be slower.

Today's announcement only applies to music. And so far, only to music published by EMI.
 
I'm late and I just read the event. Let me get this straight, Steve Jobs is offering a higher bit rate at MP3 for $.30 more with no DRM. I thought AAC had better sound and everything, why not make it AAC with no DRM? Does this mean he's "dumping" AAC in a way?
 
Actually I dislike jargon because it often gets in the way of communicating an idea, but sometimes an idea gets to be too complicated to simply explain every definition of every other word being used.

You really would like Ken Pohlmann's "Principles of Digital Audio"... he begins with the very basic, breaks it down easily, and then starts building up your knowledge of digital systems from there. Of course it takes him an entire book to get you familiar with the concepts and I don't want to write out chapters of info here detailing what a quantization interval is, or what 1/f noise is... It should be the goal of anyone trying to understand digital audio that they understand what these are and why they're relevant.

Most of what I've argued comes from Pohlmann (and others) whose book is still, 20 years after its first publication, regarded as the Bible of digital audio fundamentals, encoding/decoding, system design, etc. (updates in subsequent additions have addressed emerging formats like MP3, MPEG-4, etc.)


Well i was actually thought this subject by an oscar winner in the field of video and audio compression for his work on fils like the matrix and titanic i think. But anyway I don't really remember much of what he said it was about 3 years ago and i since branched off to mechanical engineering so wont be reading that book thanks. Your probably right anyway but im bored writing my thesis so thought id go for a bit of an arguement!

Anyway 24 bit music all the way!!!!
 
I'm late and I just read the event. Let me get this straight, Steve Jobs is offering a higher bit rate at MP3 for $.30 more. I thought AAC had better sound and everything, why not make it AAC? Does this mean he's "dumping" AAC in a way?


umm, someone else tell him....
 
Steve said that he doesn't consider iTunes' videos to fit in the same category as music because there's no precedent for digitally-encoded video being distributed without DRM, whereas digital distribution of music without DRM is already possible via CDs. He expects industry movement on videos to be slower.

Today's announcement only applies to music. And so far, only to music published by EMI.

The press release says "All EMI music videos will also be available in DRM-free format with no change in price." I mean, it might not make much sense to burn a music video to a DVD but I'm sure someone, somewhere has that need...
 
I'm late and I just read the event. Let me get this straight, Steve Jobs is offering a higher bit rate at MP3 for $.30 more with no DRM. I thought AAC had better sound and everything, why not make it AAC with no DRM? Does this mean he's "dumping" AAC in a way?

As long as I have the press release up...

“We are going to give iTunes customers a choice—the current versions of our songs for the same 99 cent price, or new DRM-free versions of the same songs with even higher audio quality and the security of interoperability for just 30 cents more,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO.
 
The press release says "All EMI music videos will also be available in DRM-free format with no change in price." I mean, it might not make much sense to burn a music video to a DVD but I'm sure someone, somewhere has that need...
Ah. I missed that.

I was referring to the Q/A session where Steve said that DRM-free feature films were not in the pipeline yet.
 
I'm late and I just read the event. Let me get this straight, Steve Jobs is offering a higher bit rate at MP3 for $.30 more with no DRM. I thought AAC had better sound and everything, why not make it AAC with no DRM? Does this mean he's "dumping" AAC in a way?

I don't know if it says specifically. But I expect the files will still be AAC, just at a higher bit rate and omitting the Fair Play DRM portion.
 
This is all great but buying the CD is about the best sonically you can do in a release format currently. No format is truly lossless.

I produce music at br & sample rates like 24bit 48k and 64K. The sound at these rates is simply brilliant.

When I mix, I'm creating complex waveforms at these rates. The compression a-rthms do look at complex waveforms and eliminate information that coincides in time with these sounds then creates a reduction of digital data dependent on the depth of the compression. It thins the stream.

This is a difference and pro's can hear this easily therefor I would assume consumers can as well as I highly value the consumer ear.

This EMI deal will help to get people buying CD's again and it's great. Now it's time for CD's to be cheaper so all can afford them. That will be the really big test for the big labels.

A new release of a major artist as a vinyl record in the '70s was $3.33US. CDs are cheaper to produce. They should cost no more than $9.99 at today's money value. Streamed product should be less, much less.
 
You're trying to use a very limited "model" of the real world to "prove" what is or isn't possible in the real world. Doesn't work that way.

Your "model" is a simply a crude version of the real world. For example: Do you actually think you could use your "model" to accurately and completely reproduce the sound of even a simple musical instrument, such as a flute playing any sort of musical piece?

One of the advantages of a digital system is that a tremendous amount of data can be recorded in a very short span of time. What you seem to be missing here is that your eardrums are only singular membranes... they are not multiple membranes with individual sensitivities. Everything you perceive is through this fairly limited system that can really tell you only two things... frequency and amplitude. The ears themselves don't inherently record how many instruments there might be oscillating that create the complex conglomeration of sounds you might be hearing at any one given moment in time... So how is a digital recording system any different?

The digital system also encodes amplitude and frequency of whatever source it picks up, just as the ear... From there, a continuous analog signal of great fidelity isn't that hard to reproduce. What's hard is putting together all the necessary technology in the right order to make it happen... but there are people who do these things for us, called electrical engineers. :)

There are idiosyncrasies of a conventional analogue system which impede its fidelity, such as an elevated noise floor. The noise floor in a digital system is fractions of this, and additional techniques such as dithering can allow a system to actually reproduce amplitude values below the noise floor!

Back to a point a few paragraphs up... I said that there are only really two pieces of information your ear transmits to the brain. Interestingly from these two pieces of information, the brain deduces things like vector and distance, but this is an incidental evolutionary advantage because the pinna of the ear and your stereoscopic hearing create minute differences in pitch and phase between the two signals received by the ears. But again, what's important to note is the sound as it's picked up by the eardrum has ONLY two characteristics... and as long as a sound reproduction system can reproduce these two characteristics correctly, then everything else that arises from these two is inherently reproduced and faithfully so. (One cannot always control the acoustic environment in which playback takes place so there will always be impeding factors to accurate IMAGING of the sound, but this is a limitation inherent to the playback environment and not the digital or analogue medium.)

There aren't any magical "presence" or "tonality" messages in a soundwave... presence, like tonality, pitch, timbre, vector, etc. are all determined by amplitude and frequency, the only two characteristics any propagated soundwave inherently possesses.

Well, engineers have reproduced that too. Engineers have developed digital signal processing methods built on these psychoacoustic principles which are perfectly capable of fooling the human brain into perceiving multiple sounds coming from locations other than the speakers from which they're really emanating. Again nothing extremely fancy in terms of the concept is being done... just alterations to frequency and amplitude which produces the phase characteristics that make sounds appear to be projecting from different locations... and not merely one complex sound at a time, but many complex sounds at a time.

If, as you seem to suggest, no engineers knew how to reproduce sounds accurately in the digital world then none of this would be possible.
 
They offer five versions of their workstation operating system. They strip stuff out and charge less for the crippled versions. Which is kinda backward thinking if you ask me.

Anybody who anticipates needing to take their Vista-powered notebook back and forth from a networked work environment and a media-rich home environment would be foolish to go for anything less than Vista Ultimate. Vista Home Premium doesn't do anything but simple Workgroup-based networking. Vista Business doesn't include any Media Centre components. There's no upgrade path from either the Basic or Premium Home editions of Vista to the Business edition. Braindead.

Of course not. An "upgrade" from Home Premium to Business would cause you to lose features.
 
Not perfect, but sounds like a nice step from where we are today.

I can't hear any problems with 128 myself (I'm not an audiophile) but I can see myself upgrading certain favorite artists just on principle. Same way I prefer PNG to JPEG even when I can't tell the difference... I don't like the IDEA of lossy compression, even though it serves me well in practice.
 
Listen to a Mellotron sometime... It's not even a sampling workstation. It's a vintage synthesizer that on electronic circuits alone synthesizes the sound of a flute from scratch (again, no sampling). Obviously the engineers who designed it knew a few things about the fundamentals of sound and synthesis. :)

Dude you are off your rocker. do some research. a Mellotron is primarily BASED on SAMPLING...as it uses actual audio Tape, which are triggered by pressing keys on the keyboard. And guess what, it sounds like a Mellotron, not a flute. It only has 8 seconds of sustain...
 
Listen to a Mellotron sometime... It's not even a sampling workstation. It's a vintage synthesizer that on electronic circuits alone synthesizes the sound of a flute from scratch (again, no sampling). Obviously the engineers who designed it knew a few things about the fundamentals of sound and synthesis. :)

If you think a Mellotron is able to provide an accurate reproduction of what a real flute sounds like you really do have a "tin ear", or perhaps two of them. :p

Quite likely this explains why you can't hear the difference between compressed sound files @ 128 and sounds from a CD, as well... :rolleyes:
 
Well, that's something. A major label finally got Apple to concede to the variable single pricing it wanted for years (but on everything instead of only new releases), let Apple pretend to offer the unchanging 99-cent price point by making that product implicitly an inferior last-generation offering, kept the bit rate in the "premium" product throttled to 256 so that there is room for future rate hikes, and the crowds go wild.

Incremental costs to Apple really are very close to zero, the per-track (or even per-album) increases in storage and bandwidth are tiny. For EMI, it's a one-time re-encoding cost that can be sold over and over again.

The DRM change doesn't really affect the label in a material way, everyone already knew it was a waste of time except as a talking point. No viable successor to the CD appeared ten years ago when it was still possible to affect the mass market and make the stuff stick.
 
Dude you are off your rocker. do some research. a Mellotron is primarily BASED on SAMPLING...as it uses actual audio Tape, which are triggered by pressing keys on the keyboard. And guess what, it sounds like a Mellotron, not a flute. It only has 8 seconds of sustain...

Bad example... I was thinking perhaps of another instrument, or maybe I simply forgot what the Mellotron was (I don't own one, but I do have a vintage Prophet-5 synth)... but I've removed the reference so as to not distract from my primary point.
 
If you think a Mellotron is able to provide an accurate reproduction of what a real flute sounds like you really do have a "tin ear", or perhaps two of them. :p

Quite likely this explains why you can't hear the difference between compressed sound files @ 128 and sounds from a CD, as well... :rolleyes:

I'm not at all implying such sounds are IDENTICAL to a real flute in a real acoustic space but the general principle of reconstructing complex sounds from simpler constituents.

As it turns out that was a bad example. For once I got my synths mixed up... and I've removed it regardless.

I'm pretty sure my own hearing is just fine... aside from the fact that fluorescent lights, cathode ray tubes and solid state electronics with 60/120Hz AC cycles occasionally drive me batsh-t insane in a quiet room with no other ambient noise to mask them. :)
 
Listen to a Mellotron sometime... It's not even a sampling workstation. It's a vintage synthesizer that on electronic circuits alone synthesizes the sound of a flute from scratch (again, no sampling). Obviously the engineers who designed it knew a few things about the fundamentals of sound and synthesis. :)

The Mellotron was not exactly a synthesizer in the sense of oscillators, filters, and the like. It contained an array of magnetic tapes, one for each note on the keyboard; it would start playing back upon the keyboardist's pressing a key, and spring back to the starting position upon release. Thus, it's closer to an "analog sampler" rather than a synth.

Because of the multitude of tapes and tape playback systems inside, the unit was extremely heavy and prone to breakdown. However, it was used by the Moody Blues and others to provide faithful re-creations of flutes, string sections, and choir sounds in the studio and (occasionally) on the road.
 
Of course not. An "upgrade" from Home Premium to Business would cause you to lose features.

OK, but my purpose in bringing up Vista was specifically to compare its software protection schemes with music DRM.

Notwithstanding their existing product differentiations, would people pay 30% more for the same product (a license of Windows Vista) if it were made available without rights-protection (e.g. with software activation schemes)?

I'm just curious if the same logic that everyone is applying to music DRM would also be seen as equally fitting to software licensing.
 
The Mellotron was not exactly a synthesizer in the sense of oscillators, filters, and the like. It contained an array of magnetic tapes, one for each note on the keyboard; it would start playing back upon the keyboardist's pressing a key, and spring back to the starting position upon release. Thus, it's closer to an "analog sampler" rather than a synth.

Because of the multitude of tapes and tape playback systems inside, the unit was extremely heavy and prone to breakdown. However, it was used by the Moody Blues and others to provide faithful re-creations of flutes, string sections, and choir sounds in the studio and (occasionally) on the road.

You're right... I had my instruments mixed up. I removed this point from my post as it wasn't exactly salient to the broader argument.
 
I think another interesting point to take from this is the 'Complete My Album' feature introduced a few days ago. Stuff like this gives users an incentive to use iTunes over other stores.

Lets say I purchase 2 tracks from an album for $2.60. A few weeks later I decide to buy the album at $9.99, and I receive a credit for purchasing on iTunes that I wouldnt get if I bought those DRM free files at another store.

Very clever.
 
You're right... I had my instruments mixed up. I removed this point from my post as it wasn't exactly salient to the broader argument.

I was kinda wondering how this discussion about digital audio encoding had somehow drifted over to analog matters... :confused:

Apparently, there are quite a few synth geeks among us! Many people nowadays would be like, "Mellotron? Who's that-- a new mash-up DJ?!?" :D
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.