Apple Employees Asked to Return to Offices for Three Days a Week Starting in September

[Abazigal]

Totoally rubbish because employers do not take into account travel or housing expenses when deciding wages, only the employee does that which is known as 'wage negotiations'. the fact you brought it up will prove that employers will use it as an excuse to drive down wages.

Consider a place like Silicon Valley, where the influx of software engineers has pushed the prices of housing sky high. So even though tech companies located there pay their employees very handsomely, it’s a necessity because a lot of that money ends up going towards rent. So their spending power is not as strong as their salary would otherwise indicate.

If you are going to work remotely and don’t have to contend with the higher costs of living in a place like Silicon Valley, why then should said company pay them as much? They could cut salary by as much as say, 30-40%, which would still translate into a comfortable standard of living in a less costly state (I admit I am not familiar enough with US states to cite an example, but you get my point).

The alternative is that there would be someone else willing to do the same job for less money (and they would also be willing to accept less pay because they don’t have to move and uproot themselves).

Likewise, if geography doesn’t matter, and assuming everyone can do as good a job, what’s stopping facebook or google from hiring cheaper labour from another country?

The people clamouring for 100% WFH arrangement can’t see the forest for the trees.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

If I don't need you to be on site, what's stopping me from replacing you with 2-3 cheaper software engineers from a developing country like India or China?

What makes you think that’s not already the case? I’ve done that ages ago, I hired the best people I could get and didn’t care where they are. As a result I had people from NA, Europe, Asia and Australia working for me. Sure, it takes a while to make people play along in different time zones, particularly for meetings.

Why would I hire someone locally when the guy in India or China is doing a better job? If you want a job, then up your game and be so good at what you do that you never have to worry about employment, because there’s always someone around the corner trying to hire you. In general aim to be the best, that’s what most people do who love their jobs.

 

[hatchettjack]

now that these companies have seen how many jobs are expendable, I see mass layoffs on the horizon!

 

[Fomalhaut]

Actually, if anything, this just goes to show that workers need not be bound by geographical location. If I don't need you to be on site, what's stopping me from replacing you with 2-3 cheaper software engineers from a developing country like India or China? What's your value add that justifies your higher salary if you can't or aren't required to actually be physically present at the workplace?

Second, if there is no need to settle down in a place like San Francisco with its insane standard of living, do I still need to pay you as much? Looks like a salary negotiation ought to be in the works, if you are saving a bundle on transport and housing.

Be careful of what you all wish for. You may just get it.

This point (in bold) had occurred to me too. It doesn't necessarily imply that an employer could replace you with a cheaper resource from overseas if you have specific skills, a good track-record, have built-up local relationships, and of course, have native-language communication skills

 

[cmaier]

Totoally rubbish because employers do not take into account travel or housing expenses when deciding wages, only the employee does that which is known as 'wage negotiations'. the fact you brought it up will prove that employers will use it as an excuse to drive down wages.

I've seen lots of companies do "salary adjustments" for people who choose to live in lower-cost areas. Salaries are not always negotiated out of thin air -most big companies have set ranges based on years of experience and "job level," and then make adjustments based on location (typically SF Bay and NY employees are paid more, to be competitive in those local markets and due to cost of living.) I've seen this both in engineering jobs and in legal jobs.

 

[cmaier]

This point (in bold) had occurred to me too. It doesn't necessarily imply that an employer could replace you with a cheaper resource from overseas if you have specific skills, a good track-record, have built-up local relationships, and of course, have native-language communication skills

That point is also what made me switch careers from engineering. I can compete, productivity-wise, with 2, or maybe 3 people. But when you can use my salary to pay 5 or 6 people living someplace super-inexpensive, I start to get nervous.

 

[n8236]

How about this incentive — they get to have a job. You’re entitled to nothing.

GTFO with your BS. There’s extremely highly-talented people you can’t find anywhere else in this country and it’s the big companies that need them. Not the other way around. So please keep talking.

 

[n8236]

It depends on the person. For me and many others, working from home is incredibly draining. I really need that separation between my work and home lives.

This is also why I believe WFH decisions shouldn’t be dictated by Corp policy. Leave it to the teams to decide. It’s not a one size fits all.

 

[Abazigal]

GTFO with your BS. There’s extremely highly-talented people you can’t find anywhere else in this country and it’s the big companies that need them. Not the other way around. So please keep talking.

I don’t care how good that employee is. They are hired (and paid) to do a job and to solve problems. Not create them.

Scott Forstall was a talent, and Apple had no qualms about letting him go. No matter how talented any one employee may be, if he or she is proving to be a threat to group dynamics, then I say let him go (and wish him all the best in his future endeavours), rather than try to accommodate him at the expense of corporate culture.

At the same time, a company should take care to never let itself become too reliant on a single employee, to reduce the chances of them being held hostage by them.

 

[Fomalhaut]

It depends on the person. For me and many others, working from home is incredibly draining. I really need that separation between my work and home lives.

You make a good point, and it does depend on the individual and their home circumstances. I have had a ton of meetings in the last year with other attendees' screaming kids in the background (or interrupting) , and that would drive me completely nuts. Fortunately, I have a really quiet working environment with a dedicated office space at home, so it's pretty relaxing.

Separation between work and home lives is a tough one though. If you sit at the same desk for work and personal activities, the days just feel immensely long, and I definitely have a hard job disconnecting from work. It's often only hunger that makes me get up to prepare some food which determines when I stop working...

Without the travel time I'm probably doing 2-3 hours more work a day, and if I get distracted by something personal during the day (which can easily happen unless you are very disciplined), I feel I need to "make up" by working longer hours, so it's hard to disconnect from work.

I actually quite like the idea of creating a "virtual office", where you keep an open audio channel (with video "on-demand" because otherwise it's a bit intrusive being always watched). This somewhat simulates the idea of being able to just talk to a colleague on the next desk, which we could do if working with a team in an office. When you need quiet time, you just mute the channel and set your status to "busy".

 

[ouimetnick]

Looks like there’s pushback

Apple employees push back against returning to the office in internal letter

Tim Cook is asking employees to return three days a week

www.theverge.com

I’d say as of now they aren’t doing the best work of their lives, so they should be their ass back to work. That 5 BILLION dollar campus wasn’t built for you to sit at home all day. 🙄

I realize some jobs at Apple can stay remote indefinitely, depending on actual job and ability to complete it remotely. However if you live close by (under 30 minutes) then you can go back to work like millions already have.

 

[Fomalhaut]

Looks like there’s pushback

Apple employees push back against returning to the office in internal letter

Tim Cook is asking employees to return three days a week

www.theverge.com

I’d say as of now they aren’t doing the best work of their lives, so they should be their ass back to work. That 5 BILLION dollar campus wasn’t built for you to sit at home all day. 🙄

I realize some jobs at Apple can stay remote indefinitely, depending on actual job and ability to complete it remotely. However if you live close by (under 30 minutes) then you can go back to work like millions already have.

There will no doubt be this kind of push-back in many industries, and each company will need to work out what works for them and the corporate culture they wish to create.

The good thing to come out of all this is that we can now openly question whether any given approaches are actually efficient. This includes not just operational efficiency, but also the efficient use of "human capital" - i.e. can you keep your workforce happy by making working conditions more flexible and still get good work out them?

The pandemic has been an opportunity to test, at global scale, whether "traditional" office-based working is actually fit for purpose, and whether remote working is practicable. The answer will, as usual, will be "it depends...".

 

[ouimetnick]

There will no doubt be this kind of push-back in many industries, and each company will need to work out what works for them and the corporate culture they wish to create.

The good thing to come out of all this is that we can now openly question whether any given approaches are actually efficient. This includes not just operational efficiency, but also the efficient use of "human capital" - i.e. can you keep your workforce happy by making working conditions more flexible and still get good work out them?

The pandemic has been an opportunity to test, at global scale, whether "traditional" office-based working is actually fit for purpose, and whether remote working is practicable. The answer will, as usual, will be "it depends...".

Agreed, and I also feel it is a good excuse to trim the workforce if necessary. How valuable is EVERY employee? How much productivity are you getting out of them? Are they really worth what you are paying them?, etc.

Many of Apple’s employees like lower level software engineering, marketing, finance, legal, etc can work remotely for the most part. It’s the hardware engineers that need access to expensive testing equipment and testing labs that most likely can’t work from home unless Apple is going to allow prototyping and hardware development at home.

 

[Fomalhaut]

Agreed, and I also feel it is a good excuse to trim the workforce if necessary. How valuable is EVERY employee? How much productivity are you getting out of them? Are they really worth what you are paying them?, etc.

Many of Apple’s employees like lower level software engineering, marketing, finance, legal, etc can work remotely for the most part. It’s the hardware engineers that need access to expensive testing equipment and testing labs that most likely can’t work from home unless Apple is going to allow prototyping and hardware development at home.

Hmmm...a couple of points to address here:

1) As you point out, employers will also be looking very carefully at the actual productivity impact of remote working. The challenge with managing remote workers is being able to effectively communicate requirements with them, developing really solid task allocation and tracking processes, and keeping the workforce motivated. Managers will need to master these techniques (e.g. Agile methodology) and the tools associated with them, otherwise they will find themselves unable to effectively execute their role with remote workers. For some industries it is a massive shift in governance practices.

Measurement of throughput is paramount, and if done right, tracking of productivity can be more accurate than office-based settings, where often it's often limited to "are you tracking OK with task X?", and hoping you get an accurate answer.

2) As a software engineer I would actually say that junior staff need *more* supervision and mentoring than experienced staff. I worry that a whole generation of new starters in 2020/21 will not have had the same level of hands-on help that earlier cohorts had. As you indicate, some jobs (like scientific research, any kind of physical engineering etc) have a dependency on specialist equipment that may not be practical to have at home.

 

[Zeke92]

I've put on weight though...I used to cycle 20km most days, and then walk around the office or the city, and I really notice not doing that now. I try to do some exercise during the day, but often just end up sitting at the desk for 10 hours a day, which is not super healthy.

There are definitely pluses to WFH though. fewer distractions / noises from other people (but far easier to get distracted by other things at home, the Internet (ahem...macrumors.com) ), and fewer costs associated with travel, work clothes, eating out etc., not to mention the time savings.

A day or two in the office to keep work and social interactions going, and have face-to-face meetings with colleagues and customers seems to be the way to go for me.

That’s good for YOU. I’m not against office work for people who went to go in. But mandated office work is not needed. I already had discipline before the pandemic. If you need office work for routine and structure, please go into office but leave me out of it.

 

[spazzcat]

Company owners, CEO's and other bosses have fear on their faces because the pandemic has proved one thing about employers which is that employers feel the need to have total control over their employees. Jobs that have been able to be done at home, these employees have spoken at there being an increase in efficiency and productivity, stress and anxiety levels have dropped with the result being many employees now saying they enjoy doing their job. Now you've got company bosses telling employees it's time to get back into the office, to do a job that can do perfectly well still being at home. Bosses like control and with that control comes power, the power to command others. When in the office the boss can demand to see a worker to complain about something, can keep ringing an employees desk phone asking questions or demanding things, constant interruptions from the boss. All that instantly goes away when employee's work from home, the boss loses control and power and they hate it.

This was what I was dealing with in March. My employer gave us two weeks' notice that everyone was coming back to the office every other day. There is no reason for me to waste 1.5 everyday commuting and no one was vax at that time. I said I would give him two days a week in the office and we negotiate which two days after I got vaccinated. He informed me that it wasn't up to me, I told him this isn't a dictatorship he told me it was. Two weeks later I turned in my notice and now work remote 100%. There are way too many developer positions that are 100% remote now, employers will be forced to get with the times.

 

[spazzcat]

How about this incentive — they get to have a job. You’re entitled to nothing.

This BS thinking needs to stop. Employment should be a partnership. An employee agrees to perform a service (work) and you agree to pay them for that service. Everything else is negotiable.

 

[I7guy]

This was what I was dealing with in March. My employer gave us two weeks' notice that everyone was coming back to the office every other day. There is no reason for me to waste 1.5 everyday commuting and no one was vax at that time. I said I would give him two days a week in the office and we negotiate which two days after I got vaccinated. He informed me that it wasn't up to me, I told him this isn't a dictatorship he told me it was. Two weeks later I turned in my notice and now work remote 100%. There are way too many developer positions that are 100% remote now, employers will be forced to get with the times.

You found out employment is at will. Good for you.

This BS thinking needs to stop. Employment should be a partnership. An employee agrees to perform a service (work) and you agree to pay them for that service. Everything else is negotiable.

It’s not a partnership in that everything is negotiable. Don’t like the terms of employment, then one is not a good fit for the company. You and the potential employer just saved a boatload of money,

 

[sfrangu]

This was what I was dealing with in March. My employer gave us two weeks' notice that everyone was coming back to the office every other day. There is no reason for me to waste 1.5 everyday commuting and no one was vax at that time. I said I would give him two days a week in the office and we negotiate which two days after I got vaccinated. He informed me that it wasn't up to me, I told him this isn't a dictatorship he told me it was. Two weeks later I turned in my notice and now work remote 100%. There are way too many developer positions that are 100% remote now, employers will be forced to get with the times.

Just curiois: for the same employer? Did they rethink their position?

 

[Apple_Robert]

I took advantage of the situation and made my job permanently from home. I asked my boss 2 months after this all started if I could move back to my home town where the cost of living is substantially cheaper, and he said yes! I’ll never be going back to an office at this job. Fortunately, my job was already 100% videos calls with our clients, but we still had to be in the office.

And that is how to properly go about seeking change to your employee requirement. Many young kids today need to learn that salient work ethic practice.

 

[spazzcat]

Just curiois: for the same employer? Did they rethink their position?

No, I changed employers, and no they haven't changed their minds. About 10 people have left since March. Their name is on the building and damn it will be used...

 

[spazzcat]

You found out employment is at will. Good for you.

It’s not a partnership in that everything is negotiable. Don’t like the terms of employment, then one is not a good fit for the company. You and the potential employer just saved a boatload of money,

They lost nine years of institutional knowledge when I walked out the door.

 

[I7guy]

They lost nine years of institutional knowledge when I walked out the door.

An unhappy employee is not a productive employee. So I say it was mutually good for all concerned.

I’m sure Apple weighed the pro and cons of this. Those who don’t feel like going back to the office can take advantage of other employment opportunities unless Apple negotiates a deal. Personally I would like flexibility. But in the position I’m in I may not have much flexibility.

 

[spazzcat]

An unhappy employee is not a productive employee. So I say it was mutually good for all concerned.

I’m sure Apple weighed the pro and cons of this. Those who don’t feel like going back to the office can take advantage of other employment opportunities unless Apple negotiates a deal. Personally I would like flexibility. But in the position I’m in I may not have much flexibility.

While I was unhappy, I was still one of the more productive team members, and it would have taken very little to make me happy. Now they are still trying to replace me because most developers don't want to work in an office anymore, and I wasn't asking for 100% remote; I said I would agree to two days a week. I was on a team of 7; I know for a fact 3 others are very unhappy about being back in the office and they can not afford to lose anyone else right now, but do they care no.

 

[unQuestionable]

I mean that’s a very liberating thing to only request people return three days a week fro the most part. I can’t believe people are mad. Many places are back to working full time in the office. Apple has been very liberal with working from home and paid time off. I don’t understand.