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This is simply my opinion so please don't flame me.

I feel that though the iphone is great and among the best it is the MEDIA that is pushing apple to where it is and not Apple themselves.

All these apps being advertised for apple is gonna help them, lets not forget that many of these ads feature exclusively apple even though there is an android version as well.

Last week I watched BBC, they had multiple times, ads for the BBC apps ALWAYS featuring on ios, with floating ipads and iphones. Other media devices place a lot of emphasis on apple.

Movies feature apple products a LOT.

Apple with all this extra advertisement is doing much much much better than they would without it. Why do so many people buy apple products? Because they are seen as cool. (I'm not saying everyone and of course most people on this forum buy for functional reasons but it does happen a lot). Honestly, apple could sell mediocre products and still do well.
 
You presented four arguments for why it would be a miracle if they didn't double their share: 1) The delay, 2) the fact that the 3GS was free and the 4 was reduced in price, 3) the holiday quarter, 4) the opening up of 130 million new customers

1 and 3 yes, will add more sales (Guaranteed doubling of share YOY? No). 2 and 4 however you were wrong about.

That doesn't indicate if they switched carriers or if they just broke a contract on their current carrier, but neither you nor I are in the position to speculate on that. Again, until those numbers are disputed, that's all you or I have to go by (no matter how many links and info you have stored somewhere, and if you do have one disputing it, please present it).

If neither of you has definitive proof of what was meant by the term "broke carrier contract" - then neither of you can be right OR wrong. Yet you state that he's wrong.

Logic failure.
 
This is simply my opinion so please don't flame me.

I feel that though the iphone is great and among the best it is the MEDIA that is pushing apple to where it is and not Apple themselves.

All these apps being advertised for apple is gonna help them, lets not forget that many of these ads feature exclusively apple even though there is an android version as well.

Last week I watched BBC, they had multiple times, ads for the BBC apps ALWAYS featuring on ios, with floating ipads and iphones. Other media devices place a lot of emphasis on apple.

Movies feature apple products a LOT.

Apple with all this extra advertisement is doing much much much better than they would without it. Why do so many people buy apple products? Because they are seen as cool. (I'm not saying everyone and of course most people on this forum buy for functional reasons but it does happen a lot). Honestly, apple could sell mediocre products and still do well.

Unfortunately there's no way to prove that because what mediocre product have they released? Specs are important only to people who want to have a pissing contest with their peers. It translates to nothing in the real world. What's important to people is reliability, customer support, device support in the form of updates and like you mentioned the marketing that Apple has obviously doesn't hurt. But it's not a fluke that they have all those things, it's the work they did to build an "ecosystem" that fosters those things.

If an android OEM came out with a phone that sold as much as the iPhone, we'd be seeing a ton of them in the movies too.
 
Unfortunately there's no way to prove that because what mediocre product have they released?

In my opinion, the original MacBook Air (even my Apple reps have said as much, haha), and the iPod Nano once it lost video playback capability.
 
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The whole point is there's no way you can say "it would have been a miracle if they didn't double their share" because that's simply not true and the facts don't back you up. Do you suppose any other company would double their share given those circumstances? Would Samsung, if they only released one android phone in 2011 have sold 37 million units? What Apple did was have the best quarter in their company's history and no one expected them to do as well as they did. It was not a guarantee that they would outsell all android phones combined, the fact that they did is what's miraculous ;)

All this typing using speculation with zero data to back it up. You harp on Kdarling not having facts to back up you claims, then turn around and ask him a question(Do you suppose any other company would double their share given those circumstances?) and another(Would Samsung, if they only released one android phone in 2011 have sold 37 million units?) that he can't answer because there is zero factual data to determine the outcomes.

With those questions, anyone who answered would be speculating because Samsungs business model is the polar opposite of Apples when it comes to smartphones.
 
In my opinion, the original MacBook Air (even my Apple reps have said as much, haha), and the iPod Nano once it lost video playback capability.

Oh ok I apologize, I wasn't even thinking about the Macbooks haha. I've been so used to just talking about the iPhone, I forget that Apple makes other things. I've never used or let alone seen a Macbook Air so I really don't know how mediocre it is or isn't, but I'll take your word for it.

But again you're absolutely right that everyone makes everything for the iPhone, and we see them everywhere but there's a reason for that. And the reason is (with the exception of the Macbook Air LOL) that their products all are reliable, come with great support and they have killer marketing. Any company that could duplicate their success would see the same thing happen to them. It hasn't happened yet though, and who knows if it will.
 
Oh ok I apologize, I wasn't even thinking about the Macbooks haha. I've been so used to just talking about the iPhone, I forget that Apple makes other things. I've never used or let alone seen a Macbook Air so I really don't know how mediocre it is or isn't, but I'll take your word for it.

You have no reason to apologize to me, you weren't originally replying to me. ;)
 
All this typing using speculation with zero data to back it up. You harp on Kdarling not having facts to back up you claims, then turn around and ask him a question(Do you suppose any other company would double their share given those circumstances?) and another(Would Samsung, if they only released one android phone in 2011 have sold 37 million units?) that he can't answer because there is zero factual data to determine the outcomes.

With those questions, anyone who answered would be speculating because Samsungs business model is the polar opposite of Apples when it comes to smartphones.

I'm using history as my source. No Samsung phone has ever sold anywhere near as much as an iPhone, so what reason would make you think that only releasing one phone a year would change that?

No OEM has doubled their share in the US YOY by releasing one phone in time for the 4th quarter holidays so what makes you think that would change? Yes, its speculation but its not speculation based on nothing. It's based on the success of their previous offerings. The "closest" Samsung has ever gotten to Apple's success with one phone is the Galaxy S and S2 lines (what is that, like 16 different phones?), and that was no where near as close. Would you like to provide the reason why you think Samsung phones would suddenly outsell the iPhone if they limited it to 1 per year?

Second, I'm not "harping" on kdarling. You think I am because you're one of the people I mentioned that seem to want a hero or something. I'm simply asking him for a source if he has one. I even qualified it by saying "I'm not disputing that fact" but apparently that wasn't good enough. What exactly are you so upset about?

You have no reason to apologize to me, you weren't originally replying to me. ;)

Doh, sorry LOL. Apologies to the person who mentioned mediocre products!
 
I'm using history as my source. No Samsung phone has ever sold anywhere near as much as an iPhone, so what reason would make you think that only releasing one phone a year would change that?

No OEM has doubled their share in the US YOY by releasing one phone in time for the 4th quarter holidays so what makes you think that would change? Yes, its speculation but its not speculation based on nothing. It's based on the success of their previous offerings. The "closest" Samsung has ever gotten to Apple's success with one phone is the Galaxy S and S2 lines (what is that, like 16 different phones?), and that was no where near as close. Would you like to provide the reason why you think Samsung phones would suddenly outsell the iPhone if they limited it to 1 per year?

Second, I'm not "harping" on kdarling. You think I am because you're one of the people I mentioned that seem to want a hero or something. I'm simply asking him for a source if he has one. I even qualified it by saying "I'm not disputing that fact" but apparently that wasn't good enough. What exactly are you so upset about?



Doh, sorry LOL. Apologies to the person who mentioned mediocre products!

You are using history as your guide? How?

Look at Samsung, LG, HTC, Motorola, ZTE... then look at the amount of android devices they release per year.

It would be "miraculous" if any one of those Android Manu's had one single phone outsell an iPhone if apple stays on the once per year schedule. It will go out on a limb and say it is impossible(IMHO), given the way the smartphone arena works TODAY.

All of the android manu's would have to hold back their phones to a one per year release schedule. EVEN THEN it would be very very hard, because they are all competing with each other for the same repeat android customer.

Again 2 different business models. Do you not understand that?
 
You are using history as your guide? How?

Look at Samsung, LG, HTC, Motorola, ZTE... then look at the amount of android devices they release per year.

It would be "miraculous" if any one of those Android Manu's had one single phone outsell an iPhone if apple stays on the once per year schedule. It will go out on a limb and say it is impossible(IMHO), given the way the smartphone arena works TODAY.

All of the android manu's would have to hold back their phones to a one per year release schedule. EVEN THEN it would be very very hard, because they are all competing with each other for the same repeat android customer.

Again 2 different business models. Do you not understand that?

Yes. I do understand that, hence me asking the question "Do you suppose any other OEM can do this?"(the implication very obviously being no. no other OEM can do that)....again, what exactly are you upset about?
 
kdarling said:
"It would almost be a miracle if Apple's US sales share did not double from the year before when they only had a half year old model for sale on ATT during the Holiday Season."
What you said implies the expectation that the share would be doubled and also implies that the reason is because now Apple would have 3 models.

One problem is that you keep making up implications that aren't there :)

My comment was clearly referencing the fact that in 4Q10 there was no brand new iPhone for sale, and in 4Q11 there was. Traditionally sales jump (doubling worldwide) during a new phone introduction. No big secret there.

... the fact that they had three models was inconsequential because the 4S was 90% of iPhone sales total.

They were not at all inconsequential, since their 10% is well over a million towards the total.

How is (activations vs sales) relevant though?

Because the ATT 7.6 million and the Verizon 4.3 million were activations, not new phone sales. That includes resold and hand me down devices, which as the survey article pointed out, could make up more than a million of those activations.

Even if the phone was a hand me down, the customer who activated that phone had to be a new customer or market share wouldn't grow would it?

I see now where you're confused. None of the thread charts (nor the headlines) were about growth in number of iPhone users.

The charts were all about growth of device sales (activation numbers), which includes old customers upgrading. As I linked previously, in ATT's case historically most new iPhone activations are upgrades by current customers. (Especially with ATT, where roughly X number customers have activated over 2X number of iPhones since 2007.)

Second, what's your source that it's far less frequent with Android. Not trying to be difficult or disputing that fact, but if you say something with that much conviction, you must have a source, so please provide it.

Read the AllThingsD link. It's in there. Big chart. Can't miss it.

(I hope you're not one of those lazy posters, who sits back and wants others to do all the research, which you then nitpick at leisure.)

Do you suppose any other company would double their share given those circumstances? Would Samsung, if they only released one android phone in 2011 have sold 37 million units?

You keep trying to compare things that aren't part of the topic. This is only about the 2010 to 2011 Apple sales increase during 4Qs. Samsung's increase was from a different combination of factors than Apple's increase.

Unfortunately, I'm against deadlines now, and won't have the time to waste repeating myself for a while. Thanks.
 
One problem is that you keep making up implications that aren't there :)

My comment was clearly referencing the fact that in 4Q10 there was no brand new iPhone for sale, and in 4Q11 there was. Traditionally sales jump (doubling worldwide) during a new phone introduction. No big secret there.

Ok. You used the words "only had" one model the year before but you didn't mean to imply that having more models would help them? You only meant a new model means more sales? What happened to the 3GS and 4 being major factors? :confused:

They were not at all inconsequential, since their 10% is well over a million towards the total.

They are inconsequential since you referred to them as a "major factor". Of course if you redefine the word "major" how you see fit, then no, they weren't inconsequential. Nice backtrack.

Because the ATT 7.6 million and the Verizon 4.3 million were activations, not new phone sales. That includes resold and hand me down devices, which as the survey article pointed out, could make up more than a million of those activations.

I see now where you're confused. None of the thread charts (nor the headlines) were about growth in number of iPhone users.

The charts were all about growth of device sales (activation numbers), which includes old customers upgrading. As I linked previously, in ATT's case historically most new iPhone activations are upgrades by current customers. (Especially with ATT, where roughly X number customers have activated over 2X number of iPhones since 2007.)

I see where you're confused. You don't see the correlation between activation numbers and growth of users. How does your marketshare double if your number of users don't grow? Are those two mutually exclusive? Marketshare can double if your users don't grow? Obviously, there's a little bit more then a fleeting connection between the two...right?

Read the AllThingsD link. It's in there. Big chart. Can't miss it.

(I hope you're not one of those lazy posters, who sits back and wants others to do all the research, which you then nitpick at leisure.)

I didn't ask you to hold my hand and walk me through my research. I asked you for a source to a stat you cited. When you make a claim, you post a source. Capisce? Good.

Unfortunately, I'm against deadlines now, and won't have the time to waste repeating myself for a while. Thanks.

Yeah...that would be best as your saying nothing with substance. Thanks.
 
Unfortunately there's no way to prove that because what mediocre product have they released?

I'm assuming you are saying Apple hasn't released mediocre products?

Hmm, just a few come to mind.

Mob
  • ileMe? Remember the infamous meeting Mr. Jobs had after MobileMe was released?
  • Xserve
  • Xraid
 
You don't see the correlation between activation numbers and growth of users. How does your marketshare double if your number of users don't grow? Are those two mutually exclusive? Marketshare can double if your users don't grow? Obviously, there's a little bit more then a fleeting connection between the two...right?

You still seem to be confusing relative shares with absolute numbers.

Market "share" refers to a percentage relative to the total number. E.g. if Apple and Android each sold ONE phone, they each had a 50% share of the sales market. If each sold 100 million phones, they still have 50% share each.

Year to year, Apple's market SHARE did not double; it's the NUMBER of devices they sold that did. Since Samsung's last year's lower number increased even more, their relative shares ended up almost even for the entire year.

.....

As for activations vs. sales vs. number of customers, that's also a simple concept:

- When an ATT customer buys their first iPhone, that's a sale and a reported activation.

- When that customer upgrades to a new phone, that's also a sale and its related activation. However, the number of customers did not change and thus the relative OS share does not change either.

- When a current customer upgrades from a iP4 to a 4S, and gives/sells their iP4 to someone else already on ATT, that will cause TWO activations for a single new sale... still with no new customers. Heck, if the second person sold their old 3GS to get the used iP4, that's three activations for one sale.

iPhone numbers reported by carriers are always artificially inflated that way, which is why deeper analysis is needed to figure out what the actual sales number is.
 
You still seem to be confusing relative shares with absolute numbers.

Market "share" refers to a percentage relative to the total number. E.g. if Apple and Android each sold ONE phone, they each had a 50% share of the sales market. If each sold 100 million phones, they still have 50% share each.

Year to year, Apple's market SHARE did not double; it's the NUMBER of devices they sold that did. Since Samsung's last year's lower number increased even more, their relative shares ended up almost even for the entire year.

If by "Year to year, Apple's market SHARE did not double" you mean "Year to year Apple's market SHARE did double" you'd be right. To be clear we're talking about the US and the 4Q, which is what we've been discussing in both of these threads since this started with Apple's calendar 4Q earnings call. In the 4Q Apple's US marketshare doubled YOY. You mentioned that Nielsen (or some other research firm) said it was a little bit closer then what Kantar said, but again if it didn't "double" by Nielsen's number it increased what, 95%? 99? I think it's ok to go with "doubled". It's not like Nielsen and Kantar's numbers were so far off that Apple possibly didn't have a monster quarter.

It seems you've gone to worldwide market share (or entire 2011) now and I believe the people here refer to that as "shifting the goalposts".

Second, thank you I understand how market share works. I also, didn't say that number of users doubled. I said market share can't double (which it did) if your users don't increase or grow (unless of course you're saying that 100% of activations were to current users). That was in response to your comment:

kdarling said:
None of the thread charts (nor the headlines) were about growth in number of iPhone users.

I was making the (correct) observation that there is very clearly a correlation between the doubling of market share and the growth of users. You seem to be saying that because the charts and headlines were not about growth of users, that that information couldn't be logically extrapolated from the data. It can. There was VERY obviously a huge growth in number of users.

.....

As for activations vs. sales vs. number of customers, that's also a simple concept:

- When an ATT customer buys their first iPhone, that's a sale and a reported activation.

- When that customer upgrades to a new phone, that's also a sale and its related activation. However, the number of customers did not change and thus the relative OS share does not change either.

- When a current customer upgrades from a iP4 to a 4S, and gives/sells their iP4 to someone else already on ATT, that will cause TWO activations for a single new sale... still with no new customers. Heck, if the second person sold their old 3GS to get the used iP4, that's three activations for one sale.

iPhone numbers reported by carriers are always artificially inflated that way, which is why deeper analysis is needed to figure out what the actual sales number is.

Man, for someone who says you hope I don't "just nitpick things at leisure" you sure are....nitpicking things at leisure.

Did you read the entire article you linked? Here's the part that you should have read:

However, he also added that "In this quarter, the number of activations from things like gifted iPhones doesn't change the math much. We aren't sharing a number, but gifted phones is a relatively small portion of total activations."

And:

This means, remarkably, that unless 25% of iPhone activations went to reused handsets (which seems unlikely in light of Bloom's comments) then over half of all contract phones AT&T sold were iPhones.

In other words, of course there were people who activated a gifted iPhone, and of course there were people who upgraded their current iPhone, but again, there is very obviously a correlation between doubling of US market share (in 4Q 2011) and growth of users (not doubling, that would require a miracle :cool: )

Let's look at the progression of your "argument":

Before any reports came out, the 3GS and 4 were "major factors" in iPhone sales growth

After we find out that the 3GS and 4 accounted for only 10% they went from being "major factors" to "not inconsequential"

Before any reports came out, you said the majority of users on Verizon were upgrading their iPhones and that "new customers seem to be leaning toward Android".

After we find out that that's not true, you backtrack and say "detractors love when I make rare mistakes" or some spiel about how you are almost always right and that you trusted an Apple blogger (mea culpa!).

Before any reports came out about sales by model you say that AT&T "only had" one model of phone

After we find out that having three models of phone made no difference because it was the newest model that was being activated the most, you say "I just meant there was no new phone". "Only had" implies that "only having" one model was a detriment. Of course, you'll come back and say that I'm making an implication that wasn't there (because really...how could I dispute that, right?).

I hope you're not this sloppy in your "carrier contractor" work. I understand you have tons of links and info stored "more then most" but have you actually read that stuff?

The only miracle here is you "predicting" something that no one on the planet did. Bravo.
 
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