Apple Expected to Announce Arm-Based Mac Plans at WWDC, Transition Away From Intel to Begin in 2021

[smulji]

you know what would be a real twist. What if we are all wrong and Apple isn’t transitioning to ARM, and instead they are getting rid of x86 products. What if Apple just decided they didn’t want to do desktops anymore, and that they could expand iPad to cover the mobile space they cared about.

And as the big kicker, they either released xcode For linux or Windows, or Visi’ll Studio extensions so that visual studio on PC could with full comparability work with xcode projects to transition them to visual studio projects/solutions.

I’m sure this will NOT be what is happening, I’d have my head spinning for a week if it did. But at the same time I do sometimes feel like Apple may only be reluctantly keeping their desktop/laptop lines going.

Ever since Phil Schiller made the announcement two years ago that Apple had a new strategy with respect to the Mac Pro and Pro users, he's mentioned a few times that there's a place for the Mac in Apple's lineup "as far as the eye can see" (verbatim). So I highly doubt they're killing macOS. Plus, what would be the point of just releasing the new super expensive Mac Pro if they were going to kill desktop Macs. Makes zero sense.
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This is what I really want apple to do. It is stupid to buy a new machine just can run Xcode only for me

There are a lot of FCPX and LPX users that rely on the Mac as well.

 

[arkmannj]

Ever since Phil Schiller made the announcement two years ago that Apple had a new strategy with respect to the Mac Pro and Pro users, he's mentioned a few times that there's a place for the Mac in Apple's lineup "as far as the eye can see" (verbatim). So I highly doubt they're killing macOS. Plus, what would be the point of just releasing the new super expensive Mac Pro if they were going to kill desktop Macs. Makes zero sense.
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There are a lot of FCPX and LPX users that rely on the Mac as well.

another crazy idea! maybe they get out of laptop/desktops but still produce MacOS. remember the 90’s when mac os (7 was it?) could be licensed out to 3rd party. That was a scenario that fell on its face so apple got out of, so maybe not the best example . Again I don’t think for a second this would happen, but it would be a news headline for sure if it did.

 

[cmaier]

another crazy idea! maybe they get out of laptop/desktops but still produce MacOS. remember the 90’s when mac os (7 was it?) could be licensed out to 3rd party. That was a scenario that fell on its face so apple got out of, so maybe not the best example . Again I don’t think for a second this would happen, but it would be a news headline for sure if it did.

The days of people paying for operating systems are over. Move on.

 

[Wilderness-1902]

So while macOS isn’t the real reason developers want to use Xcode, iOS/iPadOS is. Let’s be clear we are talking about consumer and prosumer software markets here, which is where the volume and scale is. iOS/iPadOS is a multi billion dollar industry by itself.

You can use a mac (x86) to develop apps for windows, linux, macos, web. If I was only an iOS developer, it is not a problem for me to switch to arm mac. Unfortunately, I'm not only an iOS developer. The question is how many developers will use Xcode only for their apps?

Web browsers are a complex as an OS in nowadays. When you go deeper, you will find out something, the underlying arch does matter for some cases. You can try some webrtc app on iOS Safari, and you can try that on MacOS Safari too, you can see the problem.

 

[smulji]

he question is how many developers will use Xcode only for their apps?

MS Visual Studio also runs on macOS. If it's written in Cocoa, I can't see why it shouldn't recompile easily for macOS ARM

 

[k27]

MS Visual Studio also runs on macOS. If it's written in Cocoa, I can't see why it shouldn't recompile easily for macOS ARM

Really?
I've never used it on the Mac before but I've always heard that it's an electron app.
Electron apps will work an ARM.

Edit:
"The app is built using an open source desktop application framework developed by GitHub called Electron. Electron uses HTML5, JavaScript, and other Web technologies, using Chromium for presentation, and io.js (a fork of node.js) to tie it all together."

Microsoft’s new Code editor is built on Google’s Chromium

Under the hood, it’s a fancy Web app, using Google’s browser.

arstechnica.com

 

[Wilderness-1902]

Really?
I've never used it on the Mac before but I've always heard that it's an electron app.
Electron apps will work an ARM.

Edit:
"The app is built using an open source desktop application framework developed by GitHub called Electron. Electron uses HTML5, JavaScript, and other Web technologies, using Chromium for presentation, and io.js (a fork of node.js) to tie it all together."

Microsoft’s new Code editor is built on Google’s Chromium

Under the hood, it’s a fancy Web app, using Google’s browser.

arstechnica.com

That's Visual Studio Code. It's different from Visual Studio. Visual Studio does have a mac version. It can compile C# and run app on mono

But Visual Studio for Mac is different for Visual Studio on Windows. For example, if you want to develop com/com+/asp.net..., you might still prefer Windows over mac.
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[smulji]

Really?
I've never used it on the Mac before but I've always heard that it's an electron app.
Electron apps will work an ARM.

Edit:
"The app is built using an open source desktop application framework developed by GitHub called Electron. Electron uses HTML5, JavaScript, and other Web technologies, using Chromium for presentation, and io.js (a fork of node.js) to tie it all together."

Microsoft’s new Code editor is built on Google’s Chromium

Under the hood, it’s a fancy Web app, using Google’s browser.

arstechnica.com

This is the one I'm referring to:

What happened to Visual Studio for Mac

Learn about Visual Studio for Mac's retirement and alternative Mac development options.

visualstudio.microsoft.com

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That's Visual Studio Code. It's different from Visual Studio. Visual Studio does have a mac version. It can compile C# and run app on mono

But Visual Studio for Mac is different for Visual Studio on Windows. For example, if you want to develop com/com+/asp.net..., you might still prefer Windows over mac.
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These are the features. So you're right, it is more limited vs Visual Studio for Windows

What happened to Visual Studio for Mac

Learn about Visual Studio for Mac's retirement and alternative Mac development options.

visualstudio.microsoft.com

 

[nikhsub1]

The days of people paying for operating systems are over. Move on.

You must live under a very large rock.

 

[cmaier]

You must live under a very large rock.

What operating systems do people pay for now? Not MacOS, not iOS, not windows, not VMS, not Linux, not Solaris, not bsd, so what?

 

[firewood]

If you were a college student of computer science, you choose a x86 or arm computer?

RISC V if it were available in laptop form. There's more university research going into RISC V than into either the ARM or x86 ISAs.

 

[cmaier]

RISC V if it were available in laptop form. There's more university research going into RISC V than into either the ARM or x86 ISAs.

As a former university CPU researcher, it's shocking how unimportant such research is in the real world. What goes on inside office parks and R&D facilities in silicon valley is far more sophisticated than anything anyone is doing at any university.

 

[firewood]

What operating systems do people pay for now?

It currently seems impossible to get a full legal license for macOS or iOS without first buying a device from Apple. So I assume that what I pay for the OS is bundled in with that device price.

Updates do seem to be free though.

 

[cmaier]

It currently seems impossible to get a full legal license for macOS or iOS without first buying a device from Apple. So I assume that what I pay for the OS is bundled in with that device price.

Updates do seem to be free though.

All true. But his suggestion was that apple stop building macs and license the OS. Presumably the only way they'd do that is to sell copies. Which nobody does anymore (other than a dribble of windows).

 

[firewood]

You can use a mac (x86) to develop apps for windows, linux, macos, web. If I was only an iOS developer, it is not a problem for me to switch to arm mac. Unfortunately, I'm not only an iOS developer. The question is how many developers will use Xcode only for their apps?

ARM systems can also be used for linux and web development, either educational (Raspberry Pi's) or cloud (AWS instances). Possibly also for Android and MS Surface as well.

One reasonable assumption is that a hypothetical ARM Mac would allow developing for ARM Linux or Android in an ARM VM.

 

[smulji]

Presumably the only way they'd do that is to sell copies.

Technically Apple would sell copies to OEM's not end users but I agree with you, it will never happen since it isn't Apple's MO.

 

[whiteboytrash]

There’s still a rumor from last year that folks inside Intel were saying that Apple’s going to transition this year. Now, I took that to mean that someone inside Intel saw the latest Apple/Intel contract and was like... “that’s waaaaay below what we normally get from them. Either we gave them an INSANE deal, or they’re actually purchasing way fewer processors.”

So, if the iMac is indeed the last Intel Mac for this year (we’ll know on the 22nd) and sales fall off because folks are waiting for the next big thing, that would point to the basis of that particular rumor.

Apple will be paying a fortune in maintainability costs on overheating MacBooks not to mention reputational damage. For most people, the low power draw and less heat on a MacBook with ARM will override any other trade offs.

I can guarantee there is no one anywhere at Apple saying “but will it run Mathematica?” - they simply wouldn’t care.

 

[nikhsub1]

What operating systems do people pay for now? Not MacOS, not iOS, not windows, not VMS, not Linux, not Solaris, not bsd, so what?

You think windows is free? LOL.

 

[cmaier]

You think windows is free? LOL.

It's "free" in the sense that it's included on every PC, and you don't pay for upgrades.

Again, please show me the modern example for Apple to follow where they would sell no hardware but license the OS?

 

[techwhiz]

That doesn’t mean much if he’s not working at a place long enough to get anything out the door.

Tell me about it.
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The days of people paying for operating systems are over. Move on.

You are correct. You pay for it in the initial purchase and people expect it to be upgraded until the machine is obsolete. Forget about the $$$ that Microsoft used to charge for Windows upgrades.

 

[arkmannj]

What operating systems do people pay for now? Not MacOS, not iOS, not windows, not VMS, not Linux, not Solaris, not bsd, so what?

This would largely depend on what group of users you’re looking at I think. And what OS’s.

Companies are paying for windows (both desktop and server editions) for both physical machines and VM’s (VM’s being the largest share for server editions at this point) this is still big money for MS, and they still audit heavily on it for compliance and billing adjustments.

I still see contracts for various editions of Linux/Unix (though you may argue some of the cost here is built into the support contracts)

people building their own machines or buying barebones machines (Like Intel NUC for example) are buying the OS.

I see machines come with same hardware but different versions of OS at different price points, so the OS is certainly being purchased there, and occasionally people will trickle in some money after initial purchase for upgrades (like Win home to Win Pro)

Schools, (though at a reduced rate) buy OS’s often for students to install. especially technology programs. (you can argue this is most often part of Dreamspark / Azure for students program costs rather than individual OS purchases )

but in the broader spectrum of consumers I’m sure you’re correct in a general sense. Most people buying a complete device from a retailer are buying the OS with it and don’t worry about buying major OS upgrades for the life of that device anymore (phones, tablets, desktops, laptops anyways)

that said in some magical unicorn universe where Apple sold MacOS separate, I’d buy it.

I do a fair amount of home lab and dev work, largely through VM’s (and occasionally through cloud services) so I know i’m not the typical use case but I do buy OSs for VM’s and physical hardware (any machine I have that is not a Mac or Rasp-Pi I have built) And I'm a stickler for wanting my OS's to be legally licensed copies. Point being, there’s still people and organizations very much buying OSs, even if we’re the exception.

 

[nikhsub1]

What operating systems do people pay for now? Not MacOS, not iOS, not windows, not VMS, not Linux, not Solaris, not bsd, so what?

Do you really think windows is free? How did people think such things? I can assure you windows is not free.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

You think windows is free? LOL.

Do you really think windows is free? How did people think such things? I can assure you windows is not free.

Windows 10 is free. I know, I have it. The unregistered version is free to use for anyone that downloads it, however you get a watermark on your desktop, some customization options aren’t available and you give up support from Microsoft. So, when anyone “pays” for Windows, they’re paying for a certain level of technical support, not the OS.
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Apple will be paying a fortune in maintainability costs on overheating MacBooks not to mention reputational damage. For most people, the low power draw and less heat on a MacBook with ARM will override any other trade offs.

I can guarantee there is no one anywhere at Apple saying “but will it run Mathematica?” - they simply wouldn’t care.

I didn’t mention anything about Mathematica in my post, I’m assuming this was for someone else?

 

[cmaier]

Do you really think windows is free? How did people think such things? I can assure you windows is not free.

Way to avoid paying attention the context. People don't go to the store and buy windows anymore. They don't pay for upgrades. It comes with computers. Just like macOS.

 

[theorist9]

Apple will be paying a fortune in maintainability costs on overheating MacBooks not to mention reputational damage. For most people, the low power draw and less heat on a MacBook with ARM will override any other trade offs.

I can guarantee there is no one anywhere at Apple saying “but will it run Mathematica?” - they simply wouldn’t care.

Overheating of MBP's has certainly been an issue for me, and if ARM can provide equivalent performance for less power, that's certainly a plus. [Currently, in the absence of publicly-released independent real-world benchmarks for an ARM Mac, we'll need to wait and see if this is the case.]

But:

1) Most of the heat generated by my MBP is from the dGPU, not the CPU (my dGPU has about twice the TDP of my CPU). So Apple will need to address dGPU thermals if it really wants an ARM-based MBP to draw significantly less power. [In lower-end Macs, like the Air, which only have an integrated GPU, high dGPU TDP's is obviously not an issue.]

2) I'm not privy to what goes on inside Apple, so I can only judge them by their actions, and their recent actions have indicated they are moving in the direction of giving increasing importance and weight to the ability of their pro machines (most recently the Mac Pro and MBP) to run pro-grade apps—including Mathematica, Matlab, etc.—well. Witness the prominence they've publicly given to their "Pro Workflow Team", whose work has heavily influenced not only the new Mac Pro, but also the 16" MBP (which has better thermals than its predecessor). Indeed, Apple specifically touts Mathematica, Matlab, etc. performance in its marketing for the Mac Pro, iMac Pro, and MBP (see screenshot below), as well as the iMac (but, understandably, not [unless I missed it] for the Air or Mini).

At the 2005 WWDC, when Jobs announced the Mac would transition from PowerPC to Intel, "the keynote featured developers from Wolfram Research, who discussed their experience porting Mathematica to Mac OS X on the Intel platform" (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Worldwide_Developers_Conference). Perhaps, in a nod to history, Apple will again feature a Wolfram Mathematica keynote when they announce the transition from Intel to ARM.