Exactly. Mabye the G5 chips will come back...after all the hotter it gets the better these Thermal Chips will work...
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Apple Eyeing Heat-Electricity Conversion Chip?
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Exactly. Mabye the G5 chips will come back...after all the hotter it gets the better these Thermal Chips will work...
... sooo, a thermocouple on a chip? Thermocouples have horrendous efficiency. I don't see how a such a chip in an enclosed environment (like a laptop motherboard) can achieve enough of a thermal gradient to produce enough current to be useful.
I dunno, i'm skeptical.
I dunno, i'm skeptical.
I find these comments about the website interesting...I guess we care more about a flashy site than a site that just provides the information on what they do in a simple effective way....
I take it that they are spending their money on developing the chip and not on web design.
Maybe the Power Chips website is more welcoming. Seems like similar technology with a larger potential for energy recovery (70-80%). Hard to believe.
This hits what I think is their main hurdle...how do you get these numbers down.
A nearly 100C difference and the amps alone make this really a problem for basic consumer devices..
Now on an industrial scale...
This is not really new technology.
For those not wanting to look this up here is a quote from wikipedia
"This effect was first discovered, accidentally, by the German physicist Thomas Johann Seebeck in 1821, who found that a voltage existed between two ends of a metal bar when a temperature gradient ΔT existed in the bar."
These same chips are used by some people as active coolers for CPS and GPS. They are sold as "Thermo-electric cools" (TECs) or "Peltier Devices". I can think of a couple large industrial suppliers of these devices. THey are used in those plug in ice chests and very small desktop fridges too. They are mostly used in the cooling mode but the same device works as a heater or as a power source. They are not expensive. $15 or $20 will get you one that you can play with
This is a very common device what is new is that someone is marketing it to Apple.
For those not wanting to look this up here is a quote from wikipedia
"This effect was first discovered, accidentally, by the German physicist Thomas Johann Seebeck in 1821, who found that a voltage existed between two ends of a metal bar when a temperature gradient ΔT existed in the bar."
These same chips are used by some people as active coolers for CPS and GPS. They are sold as "Thermo-electric cools" (TECs) or "Peltier Devices". I can think of a couple large industrial suppliers of these devices. THey are used in those plug in ice chests and very small desktop fridges too. They are mostly used in the cooling mode but the same device works as a heater or as a power source. They are not expensive. $15 or $20 will get you one that you can play with
This is a very common device what is new is that someone is marketing it to Apple.
If you want to power the temperature change yourself, you need a high current. But if you want to generate electricity from them, then just connect them into a circuit with out any powersupply i.e. stick a fan's power terminals on that, stick one side of the TEC on a hot chip or cup of tea etc. to setup the delta T. (temp difference) then the fan will start spinning!
Dan
I agree... But sounds nice, but I just don't think it will pay off. Keep a fan spinning 10 mins longer may set you back around £5-10. + add's size an weight.
Nice idea, not practical
If you want to power the temperature change yourself, you need a high current. But if you want to generate electricity from them, then just connect them into a circuit with out any powersupply i.e. stick a fan's power terminals on that, stick one side of the TEC on a hot chip or cup of tea etc. to setup the delta T. (temp difference) then the fan will start spinning!
Dan
So if I follow this correctly. Since the fan does not draw much, you don't need that large of a temperature differential.
I find these comments about the website interesting...I guess we care more about a flashy site than a site that just provides the information on what they do in a simple effective way....
I take it that they are spending their money on developing the chip and not on web design.
In the business world, you need to be able to make a good impression. If you have a flashy website and nothing behind it, you're going nowhere. If you have good substance but poor presentation of it, you can still succeed, but it can be a lot harder than if you've got it presented well.
Sitting down for an hour with GoLive would provide them with a much better front door to the world. Starting a tech company is hard, but it's easier if you excel in all areas of your business. And yes, publicity is one of those areas.
Maybe this is a joke? The processor will still heat up in the beginning to a given temperature, and if it crosses the safe upper limit, it will be damaged. This technology will take the generated heat and convert it to electricity--it won't make the processor generate less heat.
Of course it will. But if you're producing 110% power at 102% consumption, that's still an 8% gain. The trick is to ensure that the benefit outweighs the cost (both in price and in additional power drain to power the system) by a large margin. This is the sort of thing that improves with time.Wouldn't using the "extra" electricity to power fans to decrease heat lead to less "extra" electricity????
You won't get 30% of your electricity back. You'll get up to 30% of the power lost through heat which is accessible to the chip (that is, the portion not lost from convection cooling of the case) and above ambient temperatures. If you're in a warm room, for instance, you'll have much lower performance, since it requires the differential to work. Of course, maybe the information available isn't wholly accurate, but that's my understanding based on the description.
I know really. I could see the tagline now:
The new PowerBook G5. Power cords are a thing of the past.
Yea, kinda cheesy, but you get the idea.
And the first rule of investing is, if a little company 'leaks' the 'fact' that they are 'in discussion' with a major market company, it means they have nothing.
If they were in serious discussions, there would be non-disclosures.
I could be in discussion with Universal about starring in their latest blockbuster movie. I sent them a letter, they sent a rejection form letter. Voila, discussion.
The issue with using such a device in a laptop or whatever, is that there must be a temperature gradient -- that is, there has to be a hot end and a cold end. The hot end is a given, a processor. But you still have to cool the other end of the device, so you still have to have fans/radiators/or whatever to draw heat away from the cold end for the effect to work. Doesn't change the fundamental problem of cooling a machine with limited space and power.
As mentioned earlier, if you want to ACTIVELY cool a CPU with these, it takes the application of a boatload of electricity to do it.
If they were in serious discussions, there would be non-disclosures.
I could be in discussion with Universal about starring in their latest blockbuster movie. I sent them a letter, they sent a rejection form letter. Voila, discussion.
The issue with using such a device in a laptop or whatever, is that there must be a temperature gradient -- that is, there has to be a hot end and a cold end. The hot end is a given, a processor. But you still have to cool the other end of the device, so you still have to have fans/radiators/or whatever to draw heat away from the cold end for the effect to work. Doesn't change the fundamental problem of cooling a machine with limited space and power.
As mentioned earlier, if you want to ACTIVELY cool a CPU with these, it takes the application of a boatload of electricity to do it.
What is wrong with it? The only thing I see is that they are presenting the Peltier Effect as if it was something they discovered and not already in common use. These chips have been produced on an industrial scale for many years. They don't say this.
Here is another company who has a real product to for sale http://www.melcor.com/ Here is one more - http://www.customthermoelectric.com/ It's a mature technology These guys at eneco seem to be selling a concept and have no product.
But who are they trying to fool? Anyone in a position to buy from eneco would have engineers on staff who certainly would already understand thermoelectrics
As someone pointed out above, Powerchips seems much neater. Their insulation/conduction effect comes from a cool application of quantum mechanics and nano-etching. However, as they point out--and as I worry for the guys mentioned here--the chip actually insulates as it generates electricity. Thus it would get power from the heat of the CPU, but it also raises the temperature of the CPU by insulating it. I wonder whether these guys would have the same problem (perhaps not if they lose more heat to conduction).
I haven't read the whole article yet, but from the sounds of it, it seems as though a laptop can be charged without plugging in it. That is the processor that converts heart to electricity could either charge the battery or provide it's own power to the laptop. That would extend battery life, not sure by how much, but if it is a decent amount, this technology would be great for laptops.
Then again there's the heat issue. While the heat will provide electricity, your going to have to have a decent cooling system, which hopefully wouldn't suck to much power. Or maybe the converted power can be used only for the cooling system leaving the rest for the battery, thus conserving power anyways....just thinking aloud here though.
right, and thats one of the concerns that folks have. But if Apple somehow manages to integrate one of these into a heatsink and put it right on a CPU's surface, there will no-doubt be a difference between the surface-temp of the CPU and the other side of the chip.
Yeah you are in general correct... additionally these types of devices (to date... ones used in the real world) aren't the most efficient devices and require a fairly large temperature gradient.
Hope they can turn out a device for verification.
This tech, as it has been said before is nothing new, I remember reading a very inforative article in New Scientist about making the ultimate heat ---> energy chip, and there is an alloy that when heated on one side it creates a strong electric current. I think they planned on putting them in cars, by the engine to power electronics in the car. What is new is the idea of putting it by a computers cpu.
Wouldn't using the "extra" electricity to power fans to decrease heat lead to less "extra" electricity????
No because this thing only can produce electricity from a heat difference. If the inside of your computer was all one temperature... guess what no power. Fans are needed to cool the air around the fans thus creating greater differences in heat. So, not only are fans necessary for this to work, but the more the better. This is probably best to merely attach to a current system and add battery life. You could not decrease the cooling. So, its nice. But its not a wonder tool. its merely a bit of extra juice in the battery. Its just like a hybrid. You wont gain any extra efficiency unless your braking hence the average highway MPG of a hybrid, even though its city is stellar. Even then its not a revolution that stopped all oil consumption. Even if everyone drove hybrids, total consumption wouldnt drop by much. Highway driving and traffic are huge factors in consumption and those aren't curbed through hybrids.
I haven't read the whole article yet, but from the sounds of it, it seems as though a laptop can be charged without plugging in it. That is the processor that converts heart to electricity could either charge the battery or provide it's own power to the laptop. That would extend battery life, not sure by how much, but if it is a decent amount, this technology would be great for laptops.
Then again there's the heat issue. While the heat will provide electricity, your going to have to have a decent cooling system, which hopefully wouldn't suck to much power. Or maybe the converted power can be used only for the cooling system leaving the rest for the battery, thus conserving power anyways....just thinking aloud here though.
It needs a heat differential to generate electricity... that has to come from some place... when the company talks about it being used as power source for running the laptop it requires the use of a small heat source (microburner) that burns a combustible and portable fuel source (ethanol, propane, etc.). This is a feasible product.
In the case of using waste heat given off by the CPU it remains to be seen just how much energy they can recover...
I haven't read the whole article yet, but from the sounds of it, it seems as though a laptop can be charged without plugging in it. That is the processor that converts heart to electricity could either charge the battery or provide it's own power to the laptop. That would extend battery life, not sure by how much, but if it is a decent amount, this technology would be great for laptops.
Then again there's the heat issue. While the heat will provide electricity, your going to have to have a decent cooling system, which hopefully wouldn't suck to much power. Or maybe the converted power can be used only for the cooling system leaving the rest for the battery, thus conserving power anyways....just thinking aloud here though.
lol.... decent amount... nah... about a couple minutes.